Time to trust "The Process"

[Pat5775]

Trust the process?

F*** this process

[Shake n Blake]

(03-12-2017, 03:18 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: We were talking about the process not the owner.


Just the fact that we have Tobin shows it's different the only reason he isn't a GM is because of the lack of title.  I thought part of what Marvin did and what people give him credit for was changing the culture around the organization from miserable to stable. Just because the organization hasn't changed in one aspect doesn't mean they haven't changed their approach in other ways in 26 years.

Something had to have changed from the 90's the gradual improvement just doesn't fall into your lap magically.

I don't think Mike's philosophy to team building has changed much if at all. Tobin was a great hire back in 1999, but sometimes I think his "GM" status is a bit overstated. I'm sure he has a lot of input, but Mike is still the one pulling the strings. I think the hiring of Tobin as well as Marv has greatly improved the eye for talent within the organization, but I believe they're hamstrung by Mike.

Just going off my gut and from what I've seen, but I'm betting that there's moves that Tobin and Marv would probably like to make, but don't even run by Mike because they know what the answer would be. The extreme love for compensatory picks reeks of Mike as well.

[BengalChris]

(03-12-2017, 03:18 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: We were talking about the process not the owner.


Just the fact that we have Tobin shows it's different the only reason he isn't a GM is because of the lack of title.  I thought part of what Marvin did and what people give him credit for was changing the culture around the organization from miserable to stable. Just because the organization hasn't changed in one aspect doesn't mean they haven't changed their approach in other ways in 26 years.

Something had to have changed from the 90's the gradual improvement just doesn't fall into your lap magically.

It's the owner's process, or at the very least, one held in place by him.

Mikey Brown really doesn't follow a process. He's suppose to be resigning our own, but he only does that if they accept his low ball offers.

[BengalChris]

(03-12-2017, 03:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think Mike's philosophy to team building has changed much if at all. Tobin was a great hire back in 1999, but sometimes I think his "GM" status is a bit overstated. I'm sure he has a lot of input, but Mike is still the one pulling the strings. I think the hiring of Tobin as well as Marv has greatly improved the eye for talent within the organization, but I believe they're hamstrung by Mike.

Just going off my gut and from what I've seen, but I'm betting that there's moves that Tobin and Marv would probably like to make, but don't even run by Mike because they know what the answer would be. The extreme love for compensatory picks reeks of Mike as well.

Exactly!

[CageTheBengal]

(03-12-2017, 03:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think Mike's philosophy to team building has changed much if at all. Tobin was a great hire back in 1999, but sometimes I think his "GM" status is a bit overstated. I'm sure he has a lot of input, but Mike is still the one pulling the strings. I think the hiring of Tobin as well as Marv has greatly improved the eye for talent within the organization, but I believe they're hamstrung by Mike.

Just going off my gut and from what I've seen, but I'm betting that there's moves that Tobin and Marv would probably like to make, but don't even run by Mike because they know what the answer would be. The extreme love for compensatory picks reeks of Mike as well.

The whole thing has a bit of mystery to it because the Bengals are run in a more unorthodox way compared to most teams and they're also so hush hush about everything so I think all of us are swinging blind some when we are talking about how the front office is run but I think fans need to adjust their perspective a little bit on how the organization is run now. While I think Mike is still involved I also think he has taken a step back more and more over the last 4-5 years. In what ways?  I don't know he may still be heavily involved in the Bengals approach to FA and comp picks but Katie, Tobin and Marvin I think run the show too and that's partially why they give Marvin so much slack because of how deeply he is embedded in the structure of the front office and it's gonna shake things up more here compared to a team with a more traditional front office structure if he was fired. That's just my opinion but I've read 2 or 3 articles like this over the past few years that have swayed my opinion.

Quote:Paul and Mike Brown have maintained such a stranglehold on the decision making within the Bengals organization through the team's 47 year existence. In recent years, Mike Brown has discussed allowing the team to be run more and more by his daughter, Katie Blackburn. However, one thing that he has only recently discussed is how much he's delegated personnel decisions to Duke Tobin.


Officially, Tobin is the Bengals' director of player personnel. To the untrained eye, that's just some corporate title for a member of the organization who focuses on quality control. However, to those who follow the Bengals closely, that's about the closest that this team is going to get to having a general manager and Tobin is as good at his job as anyone in the business.

Tobin is not your typical front office employee. Mike Brown tends to prefer hiring members of his close inner circle and family for such important positions within the organization. But, Tobin is a former Arena Football quarterback whose father was the general manager of the Indianapolis Colts and Chicago Bears and now, serves as the Bengals' Midwest scout. It was actual Duke's father, Bill, who first told Brown about Duke, who was looking to create a career for himself in the NFL.

Brown, who doesn't say much, can't say enough about Tobin as a member of the organization. "Duke has become the focal point for everyone," Brown told Geoff Hobson of Bengals.com. "He keeps it on track. I would say today the responsibility is largely his. He puts it all together."

Marvin Lewis got in on the praise as well, saying, ""He’s done a very good job of putting the information together, the cross-checking of things, the organization of things. He’s really streamlined it, I think both personnel and coaching-wise."

Lewis also knows Tobin is no typical director of player personnel. "Mike (Brown) has given him a great deal of responsibility and put him in charge of a lot of things," Lewis said.
Tobin's impact

Brown and Lewis' feelings are completely validated by the track record. Tobin joined the Bengals in 1999, although only serving in his current role since 2002. If that time period strikes you as interesting, it should. Since generally taking over the personnel aspects of the team in 2002, the Bengals have seen almost all of their success during the Mike Brown era.
Between Paul Brown's death and Duke Tobin's hiring, the Bengals put together a dismal record of 39-89. For the first three years of Tobin's tenure with the team, things still weren't going great as the team put together a similarly abysmal record of 16-48. In 2002, things seemed to be going in the same, bad direction as the team put up their worst record ever (2-14).

However, in the offseason, something clicked. With Tobin's help, the team began drafting smart and putting together a talented roster. "Personality matters in football," Tobin told Hobson, and, anyone who followed the NFL in the mid-2000s can attest that the Bengals had personality, and it worked for them.
He also admitted that one big thing that he looks for is the 'spark' in a player. His exact words on the matter were, "The dull guys without much personality and spark and energy are always the ones that tend to fail."

Back in the day, this personality was evident in dynamic players like Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Carson Palmer, Dhani Jones, Dexter Jackson, and many more players that provided that extra 'spark' they needed to find success at important times. These days, the personality is a bit more concentrated, but you can still the kind of players Tobin he prefers in Andy Dalton, A.J. Green, Andrew Whitworth, and even Vontaze Burfict, and Adam Jones.

"We like guys that mean a lot to the teams they’re on," Tobin says. "Guys who elevated the team. Gave maximum effort. Weed out the guys that play because they want to, not because they can."

It's a stark contrast from the days before Tobin. Bengals fans might cringe to remember such dull players as Dan 'Big Daddy' Wilkinson, David Klingler, and Ki-Jana Carter. There were still some guys like Akili Smith, Corey Dillon, and Takeo Spikes who had personality, but it was the wrong kind that either was an active detriment to the team, or didn't fit well with the rest of the locker room.

Over the years, it's become obvious that Tobin's impact on the team has been one of the best things that could have happened. He helped to put together a roster that knew how to win games and actually accomplished it more often than not. Following his first offseason as director of player personnel, the team has put together a record of 112-99-2.
Around the time of the Wild Card matchup, reports swirled that Tobin was drawing interest from the Titans and Lions for their General Manager jobs. Those rumors were quickly put to rest with reports that Tobin had no interest in leaving the Bengals, and that's the best news a Bengals fan can hear... Well, it probably wouldn't beat a playoff win, but, it's great news.
"I'm a loyal guy," Tobin said. "Loyalty matters. Ownership here is loyal to its employees and employees ought to mimic that loyalty. (Ownership's) lives are football, That's what they're about. They don't have outside business interests. This is what their lives are all about and they're excellent at it. That's what makes it a unique, special place. It's all about football. From the lowest guy all the way up to the owner. It's all about football."

Just don't tell Tobin how much credit he deserves for the Bengals' success in recent years. He would rather give the praise to the coach or the players who have combined for that record over the years.

As Tobin says, "I think what breeds dysfunction in an organization is when pieces of the organization start reaching out for credit that a group has achieved."

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/2/24/11099216/duke-tobin-doesnt-need-gm-title-to-know-his-worth-with-bengals

[*SHRacerX*]

Reminds me of the Phillies back when they had Mitch Williams. A common phrase was "We live by the Wild Thing, and we die by the Wild Thing".

Well, so far, we have died with Bodine and Ced, and I will be positively floored if they suddenly (not that sudden, as Bodine is in year 4, Ced year 3) gain massive strength and learn how to be at least solid contributors.

There will be a lot of players on the defense watching this very closely and will likely not want to be here if this fails....or should I say, fails again.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-12-2017, 03:53 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: The whole thing has a bit of mystery to it because the Bengals are run in a more unorthodox way compared to most teams and they're also so hush hush about everything so I think all of us are swinging blind some when we are talking about how the front office is run but I think fans need to adjust their perspective a little bit on how the organization is run now. While I think Mike is still involved I also think he has taken a step back more and more over the last 4-5 years. In what ways?  I don't know he may still be heavily involved in the Bengals approach to FA and comp picks but Katie, Tobin and Marvin I think run the show too and that's partially why they give Marvin so much slack because of how deeply he is embedded in the structure of the front office and it's gonna shake things up more here compared to a team with a more traditional front office structure if he was fired. That's just my opinion but I've read 2 or 3 articles like this over the past few years that have swayed my opinion.




http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/2/24/11099216/duke-tobin-doesnt-need-gm-title-to-know-his-worth-with-bengals

One thing we can agree on is that the Bengals are extremely guarded and shrouded in mystery. All we can do is make semi-educated guesses. I've read a few articles like this on Tobin, and while I believe that he has a big say on the players we have on the roster (I think Marv and various coaches do as well), I think he has to add these players within Mike Brown's framework. As in...no big FA additions, nothing that hurts compensatory picks, he has a set amount of money to work with each offseason (which is never much), and I'm sure Mike provides input on players he'd like to keep around.

[CageTheBengal]

(03-12-2017, 04:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: One thing we can agree on is that the Bengals are extremely guarded and shrouded in mystery. All we can do is make semi-educated guesses. I've read a few articles like this on Tobin, and while I believe that he has a big say on the players we have on the roster (I think Marv and various coaches do as well), I think he has to add these players within Mike Brown's framework. As in...no big FA additions, nothing that hurts compensatory picks, he has a set amount of money to work with each offseason (which is never much), and I'm sure Mike provides input on players he'd like to keep around.

I think all of that could be true especially if it's consistent with the 90s or even scarier if Katie learned from ole Mike.

The comp pick idea is pretty flawed especially since there isn't a known set of rules on how they are given out. We are just gonna hope our FAs give us 3rd round picks.

[Bengalholic]

(03-12-2017, 03:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Just going off my gut and from what I've seen, but I'm betting that there's moves that Tobin and Marv would probably like to make, but don't even run by Mike because they know what the answer would be. The extreme love for compensatory picks reeks of Mike as well.

As Marvin said in his interview with WCPO, when it comes to making decisions, Mike still has 2 votes to his 1.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

I used to think MB was taking a step back, after letting Whit walk i don't know about it.

To stick with our weaknesses sure is idiotic and if this is "The Process" they better look at how this has turned out so far.

Bodine and Og have been epic failures so far and they want to ride this shit train?

Like i said in another thread, this is quite the gamble. Going all in on a seven two offsuit is suicide.

[Bengalholic]

(03-12-2017, 04:14 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: I think all of that could be true especially if it's consistent with the 90s or even scarier if Katie learned from ole Mike.

The comp pick idea is pretty flawed especially since there isn't a known set of rules on how they are given out. We are just gonna hope our FAs give us 3rd round picks.

Man, I'm not a fan of the NFL comp pick system in general. 

As far as what picks we'll get next year, we should get a 3rd rounder for Zeitler, a 5th for Whit and maybe a 6th for Peko. That's assuming that if we sign any FA's, they'll be released or bargain bin type guys.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-12-2017, 04:14 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: I think all of that could be true especially if it's consistent with the 90s or even scarier if Katie learned from ole Mike.

The comp pick idea is pretty flawed especially since there isn't a known set of rules on how they are given out. We are just gonna hope our FAs give us 3rd round picks.

I only hope that Katie will be more willing to do some things Mike has not been "keen" on. Such as expanding the personnel and scouting departments to normal NFL levels, building a practice facility, and maybe an occasional real foray into FA. I don't expect any huge changes in philosophy with her though.

I like picking up compensatory picks...I just don't think mystery picks in the 3rd through 7th rounds should take priority over shoring up a glaring weakness via FA.

(03-12-2017, 04:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: As Marvin said in his interview with WCPO, when it comes to making decisions, Mike still has 2 votes to his 1.

That's a small statement that says a lot.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-12-2017, 04:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: As Marvin said in his interview with WCPO, when it comes to making decisions, Mike still has 2 votes to his 1.

Makes it a little bit harder to judge Marv.

Especially if he has no say over who his OL coach is.

Sounds like he has his hands tied behind his back.

[CageTheBengal]

(03-12-2017, 04:26 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Man, I'm not a fan of the NFL comp pick system in general. 

As far as what picks we'll get next year, we should get a 3rd rounder for Zeitler, a 5th for Whit and maybe a 6th for Peko. That's assuming that if we sign any FA's, they'll be released or bargain bin type guys.

I enjoyed it more when our roster was filled out and it felt more like a bonus rather than a way to build your team.  Even a third round pick is on the back end of the round and could be behind 4 other teams. So while it's nice when you miss out on a player it's crazy imo to act like it justifies letting a player walk and I hope that's not what the Bengals are telling themselves.

Zeitlers case is exactly the type of scenario I like getting comp picks though. Considering the Bengals were never gonna pay him the type of money Cleveland did it's better than nothing.

(03-12-2017, 04:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I only hope that Katie will be more willing to do some things Mike has not been "keen" on. Such as expanding the personnel and scouting departments to normal NFL levels, building a practice facility, and maybe an occasional real foray into FA. I don't expect any huge changes in philosophy with her though.

I like picking up compensatory picks...I just don't think mystery picks in the 3rd through 7th rounds should take priority over shoring up a glaring weakness via FA.


That's a small statement that says a lot.

I think all of us are clinging on to that hope that Katie will overturn some of the longstanding Mike Brown traditions. Like you said I don't expect an overhaul but it has to be obvious to her there is a better way to run the team.

Agreed about the comp picks they aren't so valuable that you pursue them when you are picking #9 in the draft. It takes time for picks to develop and we need to get better now.

[jj22]

So we're supposed to trust, cheer, and defend even though we ALL know the end result....Failure?

Somewhere MB and co are toasting you Fred.

[fredtoast]

(03-12-2017, 03:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I mean..is 17th in pass attempts and 20th in sacks allowed really that impressive? 

From '06 through '16 the Bengals allowed a sack every 16.56 attempts.  That ranks in the top 10 in the league over that period.

[fredtoast]

(03-12-2017, 04:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: So we're supposed to trust, cheer, and defend even though we ALL know the end result....Failure?

You don't know the result.

You could be like all the Bronco fans who "knew" that Elwat could never win a Super Bowl.

In fact just a few years ago most of you "knew" that the Bengals would never be a consistant playoff team under Marvin Lewis.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-12-2017, 04:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Makes it a little bit harder to judge Marv.

Especially if he has no say over who his OL coach is.

Sounds like he has his hands tied behind his back.

It's still really really easy to judge Marv.

Horrible vs Steelers record.
Horrible prime time record.
0-7 Postseason record.
One of the worst game managers around.

"Halftime adjustments are just journalistic jargon."

[McC]

(03-12-2017, 04:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: One thing we can agree on is that the Bengals are extremely guarded and shrouded in mystery. All we can do is make semi-educated guesses. I've read a few articles like this on Tobin, and while I believe that he has a big say on the players we have on the roster (I think Marv and various coaches do as well), I think he has to add these players within Mike Brown's framework. As in...no big FA additions, nothing that hurts compensatory picks, he has a set amount of money to work with each offseason (which is never much), and I'm sure Mike provides input on players he'd like to keep around.

This is how I picture it too.  And really, if you control the purse strings, you are in charge.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(03-12-2017, 04:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Makes it a little bit harder to judge Marv.

Especially if he has no say over who his OL coach is.

Sounds like he has his hands tied behind his back.

Absolutely! You think Marvin wanted to keep the Piano Man around in 2003? I promise you he was allowed to bring in his coordinators but not his position coaches. Paul Alexander and Jim Anderson weren't going anywhere.