Tier 3 QB

[*bfine32*]

(07-29-2018, 04:22 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: Andy - not even a hesitation.  I don't like Watson.  Don't think he is a good or even mediocre QB.  However, I could be wrong. 

Based off of what I have seen, he has been the recipient of some lucky breaks.  Especially in his game against us last season.  Hopkins didn't catch that ball and it was upheld for some reason after it clearly moves while in contact with the ground.  Then on his long run, there was definitely holding and I also saw what looked like illegal blocking downfield, yet nothing from the refs.

Andy has had better stretches and for longer periods.  I know he can throw the ball and that he is accurate.  I do think he struggles fully letting the defense open up and taking what it gives him, but outside of a few QBs, this is something many struggle with, especially Ben.

Now Andy can run and get the 1st down, but we don't use him as a running QB.  Watson on the other hand is a running QB that they let pass the ball from time to time.  I have mentioned this before, but this gimmick QB is great for putting on a show, but not one that I would entrust my franchise to.

All it takes is a defender that isn't worried about the fine, suspension or retribution from the league to launch as hard as he can, even if it is a dirty shot and knock your shiny new QB into the dirt.  If the QB isn't injured or taken out for the rest of the game, he will at least think twice about taking off and running, especially when he plays that defender.

....and if your next decision was CB would you take Bradley Roby or WJIII? 

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2018, 12:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks keep bringing up DeShaun Watson. This question is for the board: You are GM of the new expansion Louisville Racers. You get to pick a QB who do you take Andy or DeShaun? 

Dalton.  Watson is a guy who depends on his legs and he is coming back from his second ACL injury in 4 years.

[YsCascadia]

(07-30-2018, 11:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ....and if your next decision was CB would you take Bradley Roby or WJIII? 

Can't I have both?

If not, I would go with Roby.  The guy is more experienced and has held his own against some top tier WRs.

WJIII was good last year, but did have at least 1 glaring mistake that give up points.  Could be a 1 time deal and if so great, but it could also show an unwillingness to tackle and that would be a big factor in having him as a defender.

Based off of your questions Bfine how about I ask you which would you take.  Josh Allen or Cam Newton?

after that would you take Jason Varrett or Dre Kirkpatrick.

Finally how about Nick Vigil or Kyle Van Noy?

[*bfine32*]

(07-31-2018, 04:39 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: Can't I have both?

If not, I would go with Roby.  The guy is more experienced and has held his own against some top tier WRs.

WJIII was good last year, but did have at least 1 glaring mistake that give up points.  Could be a 1 time deal and if so great, but it could also show an unwillingness to tackle and that would be a big factor in having him as a defender.

Based off of your questions Bfine how about I ask you which would you take.  Josh Allen or Cam Newton?

after that would you take Jason Varrett or Dre Kirkpatrick.

Finally how about Nick Vigil or Kyle Van Noy?

Josh Allen

Jason Varrrett

Don't know much about how KVN has done as a pro but it cannot be worse than Vigil so give me him

Oh, and I'd take WJIII over Roby. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-31-2018, 03:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton.  Watson is a guy who depends on his legs and he is coming back from his second ACL injury in 4 years.

Who you got: Roby or WJIII

[YsCascadia]

(07-31-2018, 05:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Josh Allen

Jason Varrrett

Don't know much about how KVN has done as a pro but it cannot be worse than Vigil so give me him

Oh, and I'd take WJIII over Roby. 

Ok.  It looks like you are more for potential to be good over veteran performance.

So would you take Sam Darnold over Aaron Rodgers?

I mean based on potential Darnold is better than Rodgers.

I guess we should sit Dunlap and Johnson and just let Sam Hubbard and Jordan Willis start.

Normally I agree with you.  This time I don't.  I don't trust potential.  Granted you have to give players the opportunity to fulfill their potential but you do need to have a back up strategy in case the potential isn't met.  I think that is why we struggled these past few years is because of the potential of Cedric and Bodine and didn't have a plan in place should they not pan out.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-01-2018, 04:51 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: So would you take Sam Darnold over Aaron Rodgers?

I mean based on potential Darnold is better than Rodgers.

Not on any planet in any galaxy.

[YsCascadia]

(08-01-2018, 08:44 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not on any planet in any galaxy.

The word was POTENTIAL.

Potentially Darnold is better than Rodgers.

However no one in their right mind would sit Rodgers for the potential of Darnold.

Which was my point from the start, with the pundits and so called experts ranking DeShaun Watson ahead of Eli Manning.

[HuDey]

(07-29-2018, 12:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks keep bringing up DeShaun Watson. This question is for the board: You are GM of the new expansion Louisville Racers. You get to pick a QB who do you take Andy or DeShaun? 

I’ll take Watson. The guy was killing it behind the worst line in the league (according to PFF). I know, small sample and injury concerns, but I’ll take the risk, and if it doesn’t work out I can find a Dalton type talent later.

[*bfine32*]

(08-02-2018, 09:09 PM)HuDey Wrote: I’ll take Watson. The guy was killing it behind the worst line in the league (according to PFF). I know, small sample and injury concerns, but I’ll take the risk, and if it doesn’t work out I can find a Dalton type talent later.

Many folks that state "Andy didn't have a chance" because of his oline dismiss the fact that the Houston Oline allowed Tom Savage to get sacked 6 times in 13 attempts. 

To be honest, outside of folks whose last name is Dalton" this board probably contains the rest of the population that would take Andy over DeShaun.

[bengalguy71]

This post is for all the participants in this thread but mainly for Ys and Nicomo.

THIS is what it's all about!! Just like Dawkins says, football was what he DID/JOB, it did not define who he was!!

These guys have SO MANY priorities above and beyond football! Their sole purpose is not to please fans and make them happy.

If you don't like what's going on, stop paying money to support their salaries, and maybe, just maybe, eventually, their salaries would start falling more in line with emergency employees and teachers!

https://youtu.be/ePFNXHJ2mjA

[YsCascadia]

(08-05-2018, 01:06 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: This post is for all the participants in this thread but mainly for Ys and Nicomo.

THIS is what it's all about!!  Just like Dawkins says, football was what he DID/JOB, it did not define who he was!!

These guys have SO MANY priorities above and beyond football!  Their sole purpose is not to please fans and make them happy.

If you don't like what's going on, stop paying money to support their salaries, and maybe, just maybe, eventually, their salaries would start falling more in line with emergency employees and teachers!

https://youtu.be/ePFNXHJ2mjA

This post makes no sense to the topic.  Are we defining who these players are?

Are we complaining about how much money they are making?

Now the speech is talking about how it is a team sport and that has been my point from the beginning when "ranking" QBs.  As many times when we call a QB elite we aren't factoring all of the things involved that is allowing him to play at an elite level.  We do the same thing when it comes to calling a QB average and even terrible.

I watched one game last year where Wentz missed pass to a WR, the analyst never once criticized Wentz, never once mentioned how Wentz wishes he had that one back.  It was somehow the WRs fault or the blocking or just great Defense, but not Wentz.

A few games after Wentz was hurt, Foles misses a pass to a WR, the analyst said that Wentz wouldn't have missed that pass.  Foles just isn't accurate, that Foles "needed" to make that pass and that Foles wishes he had that one back.  No blaming the WR, blocking or Defense.  Nope just Foles.

So I don't put as much stock in NFL experts.  I do love the game, maybe not the politics that seems to be forced and the attitude of some of the players, but the game is great and wonderful.

I also don't buy into a player until he plays for a significant amount of time and I do give credit for players that win SBs, since that should be the goal of every player playing.  I know it's not, but if I am a GM or coach or scout, that would be one of the biggest things I would look for.   

[bengalguy71]

(08-06-2018, 03:31 AM)YsCascadia Wrote: This post makes no sense to the topic.  Are we defining who these players are?

Are we complaining about how much money they are making?

Now the speech is talking about how it is a team sport and that has been my point from the beginning when "ranking" QBs.  As many times when we call a QB elite we aren't factoring all of the things involved that is allowing him to play at an elite level.  We do the same thing when it comes to calling a QB average and even terrible.

I watched one game last year where Wentz missed pass to a WR, the analyst never once criticized Wentz, never once mentioned how Wentz wishes he had that one back.  It was somehow the WRs fault or the blocking or just great Defense, but not Wentz.

A few games after Wentz was hurt, Foles misses a pass to a WR, the analyst said that Wentz wouldn't have missed that pass.  Foles just isn't accurate, that Foles "needed" to make that pass and that Foles wishes he had that one back.  No blaming the WR, blocking or Defense.  Nope just Foles.

So I don't put as much stock in NFL experts.  I do love the game, maybe not the politics that seems to be forced and the attitude of some of the players, but the game is great and wonderful.

I also don't buy into a player until he plays for a significant amount of time and I do give credit for players that win SBs, since that should be the goal of every player playing.  I know it's not, but if I am a GM or coach or scout, that would be one of the biggest things I would look for.   

The discussion did turn to the players having football the number one thing in their life.  Living, breathing, and dying football!  Yes, some fans believe, because they pay their money, that's how these guys should perceive their 'job'.  

My point was that it's just a job!  Their 9-5.  For many, football is NOT their life blood. That's what this video supports. They are fortunate to be making the money they are making, and yes, I believe they are overpaid prima donnas that I will never contribute to anymore.  My choice, and because I am in the tiny minority, is the reason these guys make the money they do, because regardless of how much this sport might digress and prices increase, there will ALWAYS be those face painted shirtless fans who live and breathe football that will keep lining the pockets of these men playing a kids game.

Did the conversation get off topic to the original post, yes, and that diversion was what this post is all about, right or wrong.

[YsCascadia]

(08-06-2018, 11:09 AM)bengalguy71 Wrote: The discussion did turn to the players having football the number one thing in their life.  Living, breathing, and dying football!  Yes, some fans believe, because they pay their money, that's how these guys should perceive their 'job'.  

My point was that it's just a job!  Their 9-5.  For many, football is NOT their life blood. That's what this video supports. They are fortunate to be making the money they are making, and yes, I believe they are overpaid prima donnas that I will never contribute to anymore.  My choice, and because I am in the tiny minority, is the reason these guys make the money they do, because regardless of how much this sport might digress and prices increase, there will ALWAYS be those face painted shirtless fans who live and breathe football that will keep lining the pockets of these men playing a kids game.

Did the conversation get off topic to the original post, yes, and that diversion was what this post is all about, right or wrong.

Sorry man, I don't see any comments about the players on a personal level.  Not any talking about any player's commitment to the game.  Let alone any comments from me in that regard.  So I don't know why your comment was made and why it was directed toward me.

As far as commitment level of players.  NO one except the players themselves can truly know how committed a player is.

Some players are only interested in their next contract, others are interested in winning the SB, some want to be in the HOF and some want all 3.  It is fine if they just are concerned with making big money as long as they don't take plays off.  When they are on the field I would like them to play with the goal to win, not just to put on a show for the sake of getting their name out there so that they can get a big contract.

Of course I can't know what a player is thinking during any game or at any moment.  I can speculate but I wouldn't know.

Now the discussion seems to have turned to which player would you take over another.  BFine is going for potential, while I am going for known and proven.  Neither one of us are wrong as if a player lives up to their potential then they will do great things, while I am not wrong because a players known potential and limitations can be schemed for.  Just look at Carolina.

[bengalguy71]

(08-07-2018, 10:28 AM)YsCascadia Wrote: Sorry man, I don't see any comments about the players on a personal level.  Not any talking about any player's commitment to the game.  Let alone any comments from me in that regard.  So I don't know why your comment was made and why it was directed toward me.  

After scouring the thread, which is one thing I tend NOT to do which can lead to problems, at times, I see that I was in error as far as our dialogue was concerned.  The dialogue that was IN the thread, as I will post below, that did sidebar into players priorities, was between myself and Nicomo.

I will apologize for participating in taking the thread sideways, AND I will man up and apologize to you, Ys since, you are correct in saying our dialogue was NOT about player priorities, but I will NOT apologize for standing where I do about many of the players priorities, and yes, I don't know what EVERYONE's priorities are, but I can speak for Dalton and guys like Dawkins, Coach Pederson, Nick Foles, Carson Wentz, AJ Green, and Tim Tebow just to name a few.

Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Wrote:... (1) but they’re much less consistent than the Steelers in recent years.  (2) Dalton is probably better than a few of those guys ahead of him, but I don’t really question where they have that much. He still has a lot to prove, and after 7 seasons that itself says a lot.

(1)  Steelers should be in the AFC championship game EVERY year, barring any major season ending injury.

The reason they aren't is because they have an average coach who lets the prima donnas rule the roost.

Not to mention they can't beat the Pats. (Both of Pig's SBs were won because they didn't have to face the Pats)

(2)  Has a lot to prove to who?  YOU???      He is eternally secure, has a great wife and son, and is financially set for life. I don't think Nicomo Cosca is anywhere on his radar!!

bengalguy71 Wrote: Wrote:(1)  Steelers should be in the AFC championship game EVERY year, barring any major season ending injury.

The reason they aren't is because they have an average coach who lets the prima donnas rule the roost.

Not to mention they can't beat the Pats. (Both of Pig's SBs were won because they didn't have to face the Pats)

(2)  Has a lot to prove to who?  YOU???      He is eternally secure, has a great wife and son, and is financially set for life. I don't think Nicomo Cosca is anywhere on his radar!!

Umm...his peers? GMs around the league? Everyone else who voted on these rankings?

Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Wrote:Umm...his peers? GMs around the league? Everyone else who voted on these rankings?

My money says with his security, he couldn't care less what any of those yahoos think.  He'll retire a Bengal.  

bengalguy71 Wrote: Wrote:My money says with his security, he couldn't care less what any of those yahoos think.  He'll retire a Bengal.  

I think he has more competitive drive than you’re giving him credit for. When he was booed at a softball game he worked on his game like never before and had the best season of his career. He’s won at every level he’s played at his entire life, I guarantee he cares.

Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Wrote:I think he has more competitive drive than you’re giving him credit for. When he was booed at a softball game he worked on his game like never before and had the best season of his career. He’s won at every level he’s played at his entire life, I guarantee he cares.

Ignorant fans booing him for football, at a softball game!  lol

And what did he do?  Hit 2 homeruns, one almost out of the baseball stadium!!!

It's a job for these guys NC.  It's their 9-5! Yes, he wants to win and do well, but being a brother, I know his priorities and football isn't as high as most fans think it is.  

bengalguy71 Wrote: Wrote:Ignorant fans booing him for football, at a softball game!  lol

And what did he do?  Hit 2 homeruns, one almost out of the baseball stadium!!!

It's a job for these guys NC.  It's their 9-5! Yes, he wants to win and do well, but being a brother, I know his priorities and football isn't as high as most fans think it is.

That’s a problem then.

Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Wrote:That’s a problem then.

Not for him.  Only for folks that live and die NFL football!  

[YsCascadia]

(08-07-2018, 12:24 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: After scouring the thread, which is one thing I tend NOT to do which can lead to problems, at times, I see that I was in error as far as our dialogue was concerned.  The dialogue that was IN the thread, as I will post below, that did sidebar into players priorities, was between myself and Nicomo.

I will apologize for participating in taking the thread sideways, AND I will man up and apologize to you, Ys since, you are correct in saying our dialogue was NOT about player priorities, but I will NOT apologize for standing where I do about many of the players priorities, and yes, I don't know what EVERYONE's priorities are, but I can speak for Dalton and guys like Dawkins, Coach Pederson, Nick Foles, Carson Wentz, AJ Green, and Tim Tebow just to name a few.

No worries.  I was totally lost.  Now I see what you are talking about.

[SladeX]

Personally I don't mind if a thread goes astray.

To tie something together maybe
There are guys who love what they do. Whether in sports or other walks they generally excel and otherwise rise above. Not to say the other guys are lagging or doing less than they should. In NFL I'm thinking of a guy like Farve, or in soccer a guy named Harry Kane fits this profile. MJ in the NBA. The guys that are the first in the facility and last out. I suspect that the first tier of players in any sport are populated by such guys. They love what they do, have talent to match, and also perhaps a sense of humility in terms of realizing the fleeting nature of life that drives them to put in the ejxtra effort. Not casting aspersions on Dalton's work ethic, I'm sure he's a fine professional, with a chance yet to have a great career. His ceiling is upper 2nd tier I think. Personally I'm curious to see how he does if price turns out to be what we all hope.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-12-2018, 11:32 PM)SladeX Wrote: Personally I don't mind if a thread goes astray.

To tie something together maybe
There are guys who love what they do. Whether in sports or other walks they generally excel and otherwise rise above.  Not to say the other guys are lagging or doing less than they should. In NFL I'm thinking of a guy like Farve, or in soccer a guy named Harry Kane fits this profile. MJ in the NBA. The guys that are the first in the facility and last out. I suspect that the first tier of players in any sport are populated by such guys. They love what they do, have talent to match, and also perhaps a sense of humility in terms of realizing the fleeting nature of life that drives them to put in the ejxtra effort. Not casting aspersions on Dalton's work ethic, I'm sure he's a fine professional, with a chance yet to have a great career. His ceiling is upper 2nd tier I think. Personally I'm  curious to see how he does if price turns out to be what we all hope.

Maybe you're talking about "killer instict" (something MJ, Kobe, Montana and Brady have in spades)? 

As far as that goes, I don't get that sense from Dalton (nor did I feel it with Palmer). His work ethic is exemplary though, IMO.

[PikesPeakUC]

I have no clue how to really judge any of this stuff, and I'm not going to pretend to. A lot of it is the eye test stuff, and while that's great, it's also what made Tebow so lauded, and we know how that ended. I think we have a habit of tricking ourselves into believing sometimes.

I think Dalton's a fine Quarterback. I don't think you're ever going to win a Super Bowl with him unless he's surrounded by an elite defense and offense. He could surprise and win a playoff game or two, but asking for that could be a stretch.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-13-2018, 07:51 PM)PikesPeakUC Wrote: I have no clue how to really judge any of this stuff, and I'm not going to pretend to. A lot of it is the eye test stuff, and while that's great, it's also what made Tebow so lauded, and we know how that ended. I think we have a habit of tricking ourselves into believing sometimes.

I think Dalton's a fine Quarterback. I don't think you're ever going to win a Super Bowl with him unless he's surrounded by an elite defense and offense. He could surprise and win a playoff game or two, but asking for that could be a stretch.

Dalton can't win people over if that's the perception. If the line (and run game) are solid and Dalton balls out, it'll be "cuz teammates". 

Hardly seems fair. How many times has a QB willed a crap team to a championship? 

If you get that far, the team is usually stacked.