Comparing Front Office Sizes in the AFC North

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(09-20-2017, 12:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The atleast we're not the Browns excuse.

Burfict was projected as a 1st Round pick...and slipped because of red flags. It's not like he was some unknown guy from a D2 school.

How have the Steelers and Ravens scouting departments worked out? Oh yeah...they WIN SUPERBOWLS.

The Bengals? 26+ years without a Super Bowl win.

they have found many diamonds in the rough. Housh, Rudi, Braham, Geno, MJ,  too name a few

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 12:07 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: they have found many diamonds in the rough.  Housh, Rudi, Braham, Geno, MJ,  too name a few

So you think the draft record that goes back to 1996 is not relevant because it goes back that far...then you cite Rich Braham who was drafted in 1994 as a record of their excellent drafting?

The point is EVERY TEAM finds diamonds in the ruff. Our 28th rank in draft value shows that most teams find more than us given our draft position.

How anyone can defend an organization with a tiny scouting department after they haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years is beyond me. Even if you blame the coach...who ultimately decides to keep that coach? Yeah...the same people who have a small scouting department.

[BMK]

I'm still a little confused at the front office size to playoff wins comparison.

How can the number of employees in the front office be just fine to field a successful, playoff caliber team over the last 7-8 years, but then all of a sudden in the playoffs, the number of employees in the front office is used as an excuse for not winning a playoff game?

I can see that point being made if the team all out sucked during that time frame... but it didn't.

The NUMBER of employees is not that significant. The QUALITY of those employees is what's important. The Browns having the highest number of employees proves that. I agree with a previous post that said there were many reasons why the Bengals haven't won a playoff game for so long, but the number of employees in the front office isn't too high on the list.

[THE PISTONS]

Perhaps we are the best managed team to not win a playoff game in 26+ years!

Maybe other teams will start firing their scouts to copy our model!

[BMK]

(09-20-2017, 12:11 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Even if you blame the coach...who ultimately decides to keep that coach? Yeah...the same people who have a small scouting department.

You're making my point. 

The OP was strictly questioning the number of front office types....which is a minor consideration in a teams success. (again, see the Browns)

You're questioning the quality of the front office types.....which is a MAJOR consideration in a teams success.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-20-2017, 11:57 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: how is the new scouting dept for browns working out. they are 1 - 17 in  their last 18. Burfict undrafted free agent. Erickson undrafted free agent.

Bengals are 6-11-1 in that same time span. Burfict wasn't exactly a scouting find, so much as just a willingness to take on his red flags (which has led to multiple suspensions). Erickson is a good returner, but keep in mind he had 6 catches last year. Not exactly FO strutting material.

Wouldn't be surprised that, short of a Bengals ownership change, the Browns have a better combined '18-'19 record than the Bengals.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 12:30 PM)BMK Wrote: You're making my point. 

The OP was strictly questioning the number of front office types....which is a minor consideration in a teams success. (again, see the Browns)

You're questioning the quality of the front office types.....which is a MAJOR consideration in a teams success.

The Browns just recently added a lot of their people to their front office staff...and hired a baseball guy to run their football operations. They are clearly clueless from the top to the bottom.

The Steelers and Ravens have BOTH won multiple Super Bowls over the past 20 years and their front office size is being dismissed in favor of citing the Browns as proving it doesn't matter.

How great is our front office if they allow an 0-7 coach in the playoffs to stay in place?

I do think scouting size is relevant as the coaches have to scout during the season when they should be gameplanning.

[BMK]

(09-20-2017, 12:34 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I do think scouting size is relevant as the coaches have to scout during the season when they should be gameplanning.

Doubtful.  If a coach is integral to the gameplan for the coming opponent, it's highly unlikely he'll be sent to bumf**k, Iowa that week to go watch some local phenom that they heard about through a friend of a friend's cousin. 

The Bengals subscribe to one or more scouting services that do that for them....Blesto, National, whatever....just like most every other team in the NFL. For the most part, the Bengals have the same scouting information that most of the other teams do.

Now, how they use that information is a totally different story.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(09-20-2017, 12:34 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Browns just recently added a lot of their people to their front office staff...and hired a baseball guy to run their football operations. They are clearly clueless from the top to the bottom.

The Steelers and Ravens have BOTH won multiple Super Bowls over the past 20 years and their front office size is being dismissed in favor of citing the Browns as proving it doesn't matter.

How great is our front office if they allow an 0-7 coach in the playoffs to stay in place?

I do think scouting size is relevant as the coaches have to scout during the season when they should be gameplanning.

You are aware that teams get game tape and they can watch in the off season. Usually coaches tape are better than actually watching the tv tape.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 01:15 PM)BMK Wrote: Doubtful.  If a coach is integral to the gameplan for the coming opponent, it's highly unlikely he'll be sent to bumf**k, Iowa that week to go watch some local phenom that they heard about through a friend of a friend's cousin. 

The Bengals subscribe to one or more scouting services that do that for them....Blesto, National, whatever....just like most every other team in the NFL. For the most part, the Bengals have the same scouting information that most of the other teams do.

Now, how they use that information is a totally different story.

Which is my point - We don't have enough scouts to be able to send them to a bunch of games.

Other teams have more scouts AND subscribe to those services.


From John Clayton:

The Bengals do not scout college players as heavily as most other NFL teams. They have just four full-time "scouts" in their personnel department - and two of them are Brown family members who spend much of their time in the office. The fifth person in the department is part-time consultant John Cooper, the former Ohio State coach.

"Other teams hit every school," Clayton said. "The Bengals get the (scouting) reports, but I get the reports, too. It's knowing the background information, the players' personalities, that make the difference in drafting."

The Bengals do visit schools during the season, but their scouts do not see as many games as scouts from other NFL teams.
"You need to make evaluations during games," Clayton said. "You're not scouting guys to workout."

Once the NFL season ends, Bengals assistants do make visits to colleges for player workout days. They also attend the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(09-20-2017, 01:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Which is my point - We don't have enough scouts to be able to send them to a bunch of games.

Other teams have more scouts AND subscribe to those services.


From John Clayton:

The Bengals do not scout college players as heavily as most other NFL teams. They have just four full-time "scouts" in their personnel department - and two of them are Brown family members who spend much of their time in the office. The fifth person in the department is part-time consultant John Cooper, the former Ohio State coach.

"Other teams hit every school," Clayton said. "The Bengals get the (scouting) reports, but I get the reports, too. It's knowing the background information, the players' personalities, that make the difference in drafting."

The Bengals do visit schools during the season, but their scouts do not see as many games as scouts from other NFL teams.
"You need to make evaluations during games," Clayton said. "You're not scouting guys to workout."

Once the NFL season ends, Bengals assistants do make visits to colleges for player workout days. They also attend the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.

And yet miraculously they have a top 5 record since Dalton took over as QB

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 01:16 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: You are aware that teams get game tape and they can watch in the off season. Usually coaches tape are better than actually watching the tv tape.

Yes...and that strategy has worked beautifully...to the tune of 0 playoff wins in 26+ years and being ranked the 28th best drafting team.

Who could argue with that success?

[muskiesfan]

The Brown family does damn near everything wrong. I don't see how that's really a discussion. We have the worst ***** GM in professional sports (Mike Brown) and the smallest scouting department in the NFL. Our owner is way too loyal to coaches (Alexander). Having the smallest scouting department in the NFL is a joke, like so much else with this franchise. Everyone loves to point to the damn Browns, but there are some 23 teams that have won a playoff game since the Bengals have including the Browns. Almost the entire ***** league has won a playoff game, but hey, we're not the Browns! Give me a break.

Yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment because I love the Bengals. Like Mike Brown, I am loyal to a fault. I'll continue to ***** every year, but I'll continue being a fan until Brown moves the team from Cincinnati. Facts are facts though. We all get irritated about the teams lack of postseason success, but we have the worst owner and worst GM in all of professional sports. Until any of that changes, we're not going to have a legitimate shot at a championship.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 01:30 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: The Brown family does damn near everything wrong. I don't see how that's really a discussion. We have the worst ***** GM in professional sports (Mike Brown) and the smallest scouting department in the NFL. Our owner is way too loyal to coaches (Alexander). Having the smallest scouting department in the NFL is a joke, like so much else with this franchise. Everyone loves to point to the damn Browns, but there are some 23 teams that have won a playoff game since the Bengals have including the Browns. Almost the entire ***** league has won a playoff game, but hey, we're not the Browns! Give me a break.

Yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment because I love the Bengals. Like Mike Brown, I am loyal to a fault. I'll continue to ***** every year, but I'll continue being a fan until Brown moves the team from Cincinnati. Facts are facts though. We all get irritated about the teams lack of postseason success, but we have the worst owner and worst GM in all of professional sports. Until any of that changes, we're not going to have a legitimate shot at a championship.

Actually I have to correct you...EVERY TEAM in the NFL has won a playoff game since we last have. 23 teams have played in a Super Bowl since we last won a playoff game.

Yet...yeah our scouting department is adequate. 

[BMK]

(09-20-2017, 01:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Which is my point - We don't have enough scouts to be able to send them to a bunch of games.

Other teams have more scouts AND subscribe to those services.

I'm not disputing that the Bengals scouting staff is small. I was disputing that, during the season, they send coaches away from the team to scout instead of preparing for this week's game.    Maybe during a bye week. Maybe.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 01:47 PM)BMK Wrote: I'm not disputing that the Bengals scouting staff is small. I was disputing that, during the season, they send coaches away from the team to scout instead of preparing for this week's game.    Maybe during a bye week. Maybe.

Yeah...so they just don't scout those weeks...or scout a very limited amount of places...or watch some games on TV which talent evaluators are saying isn't the same as being at the game.

None of those things are good.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

You still haven't explained How we have top 5 record since Dalton took over as QB. with a below average coach.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-25-2017, 12:32 AM)Beaker Wrote: In the scheme of reasons that the Bengals have not won a playoff game since 1990, front office size is probably pretty far down the list of relevant reasons.

Meh. So our tiny scouting and personnel departments don't matter. No practice facility doesn't matter. The Bengals are correct in avoiding free agency and building through the draft. They are supposedly excellent at drafting. 

So why haven't we won a playoff game since 1990?

[BengalChris]

(04-24-2017, 04:06 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: The Browns lose the most and have the most so how does that play into things? You'd think one of those 32 people would know how to land a draft pick.

It doesn't play into anything because the Browns haven't made a right move since being reborn. It wouldn't matter if they had a thousand people in their scouting department, they'd still suck.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 02:09 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It doesn't play into anything because the Browns haven't made a right move since being reborn. It wouldn't matter if they had a thousand people in their scouting department, they'd still suck.

Yep. People site the Browns for personnel and the Redskins for free agency. The 2 absolute worst.

They cleverly avoid that the Steelers and Ravens have won multiple Super Bowls over the past 20 years because it goes against their point of the Bengals doing things right.

Obviously with 26 years of playoff failure...things aren't alright.