Keeping Bill Lazor Is A Mistake

[Housh]

Don’t buy into Lazor being ass yet

He had much better play variety than Zampese and Lazor had NOTHING. If we get him an o line and a TE and another WR he has the QB ago be a potent offense.



Of all our coaches he’s the most safe.

[Benton]

(01-04-2018, 07:16 PM)Housh Wrote: Don’t buy into Lazor being ass yet

He had much better play variety than Zampese and Lazor had NOTHING. If we get him an o line and a TE and another WR he has the QB ago be a potent offense.



Of all our coaches he’s the most safe.

Just playing devils advocate, didn't he have the same thing Zampese did? And he still had some pretty crappy outcomes, just like Zampese. To me, 20-0 against the Ravens or 33-7 to the Bears isn't much different.

Maybe if Zampese had a TE, another WR, and an OL, he would've been sitting there with Marvelous Marv?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-04-2018, 07:16 PM)Housh Wrote: Don’t buy into Lazor being ass yet

He had much better play variety than Zampese and Lazor had NOTHING. If we get him an o line and a TE and another WR he has the QB ago be a potent offense.



Of all our coaches he’s the most safe.

You drinking already Housh? Need to grab a beer man.

But i agree with yah.

(01-04-2018, 07:25 PM)Benton Wrote: Just playing devils advocate, didn't he have the same thing Zampese did? And he still had some pretty crappy outcomes, just like Zampese. To me, 20-0 against the Ravens or 33-7 to the Bears isn't much different.

Maybe if Zampese had a TE, another WR, and an OL, he would've been sitting there with Marvelous Marv?

Difference is Lazor inherited Zamp's scheme and couldn't implement his own completely in the middle of a season.

Also if it is true and Lazor is the one who pushed for the change up in the blocking scheme i commend the man.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-04-2018, 06:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Ross is great in space Ocho, sure would like to see this guy next year on some screens.

Not just that damn jet sweep Zamp used him on and blocking on the edge of the line like he is a TE or something.

Thought it was so much BS the way we used the guy when we did and then hardly used him at all.

This has to change this year if Ross is healthy.


If Lazor gets full control next year it will be much better than this year, that is a given.

I know Ross is good on screens, but with Marvin back we don’t know how much he’ll be used and that’s just one WR out of seven. Add AJ because he can do everything and that’s just two out of seven. Need more than two able to create YAC if your scheme requires YAC.


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[*PhilHos*]

I'm kinda torn on the Lazor thing. On the one hand, I believe up til the end, he was using Zampese's playbook and not his own. On th eother hand, we still finished the season as the worst offense in the league.

Personally, I would rather Merv had taken advantage and sought out the best OC he could find and if it was Lazor, so be it, but at least LOOK. With that said, I'll give Lazor a chance (like 5 or 6 games into next season) to see what he can do to install his OWN offense and his OWN playbook. It'll be interesting if we can see how much control Alexander had on the offense (aside from coaching the offensive line to amazing amounts of ineptitude).

[Benton]

(01-04-2018, 07:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:  

Difference is Lazor inherited Zamp's scheme and couldn't implement his own completely in the middle of a season.

Also if it is true and Lazor is the one who pushed for the change up in the blocking scheme i commend the man.

Fair point. On the other hand, Lazor's scheme could be Brat 2.0. Not that he shouldn't be given a chance to implement that, I'm just not sold on the idea that the best choice was the guy who just spent half a season spinning tires. End of the day, every coach is going to be handcuffed by previous coaches, positions coaches and the HC. Good coaches overcome that.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-04-2018, 07:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I know Ross is good on screens, but with Marvin back we don’t know how much he’ll be used and that’s just one WR out of seven. Add AJ because he can do everything and that’s just two out of seven. Need more than two able to create YAC if your scheme requires YAC.


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Think Erickson and Boyd might be good on screens if used right. Like you said, it was just over used and the Defense
knew it was coming. If we grab a WR in this draft i don't know how far he will fall but i was crazy impressed with the
WR out of Memphis, Anthony Miller. Guy is a playmaker, but from a smaller school.

(01-04-2018, 08:42 PM)Benton Wrote: Fair point. On the other hand, Lazor's scheme could be Brat 2.0. Not that he shouldn't be given a chance to implement that, I'm just not sold on the idea that the best choice was the guy who just spent half a season spinning tires. End of the day, every coach is going to be handcuffed by previous coaches, positions coaches and the HC. Good coaches overcome that.

Could be, but i think i will give him a chance at Lazor 1.0 before calling him the next Brat.

I don't know of many OC's that just come in midseason using the previous OC's playbook and set the league on fire.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-04-2018, 08:42 PM)Benton Wrote: Fair point. On the other hand, Lazor's scheme could be Brat 2.0. Not that he shouldn't be given a chance to implement that, I'm just not sold on the idea that the best choice was the guy who just spent half a season spinning tires. End of the day, every coach is going to be handcuffed by previous coaches, positions coaches and the HC. Good coaches overcome that.

Bill Lazor is essentially the 'new blood" on the offensive side of the ball.  In his short tenure here, they have gotten rid of two healthy doses of "old blood" in Zampeese and Alexander.  To me, that in itself is huge.  Tells me that Lazor has some pretty good plans, and that the players and Marvin really believe in him.  So much to the point that Marvin went to bat vs. Mike Brown over getting rid of Alexander to keep Laxor on board.  

With all things being bizarro in the Bengals mindset, one thing occurs to me.  The players like and respond well to Bill Lazor.  Now, we know the organization is tainted, from the ownership.  But, the players have an inborn desire to win.  If they like and respond well to Lazor, and Marvin sees this and gets on board, who are we to question?

[Steve]

(01-04-2018, 12:28 AM)GodFather Wrote: says the guy who is blind to the past 15 years....

past is the past....

i'm looking forward.....

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-04-2018, 09:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Bill Lazor is essentially the 'new blood" on the offensive side of the ball.  In his short tenure here, they have gotten rid of two healthy doses of "old blood" in Zampeese and Alexander.  To me, that in itself is huge.  Tells me that Lazor has some pretty good plans, and that the players and Marvin really believe in him.  So much to the point that Marvin went to bat vs. Mike Brown over getting rid of Alexander to keep Laxor on board.  

With all things being bizarro in the Bengals mindset, one thing occurs to me.  The players like and respond well to Bill Lazor.  Now, we know the organization is tainted, from the ownership.  But, the players have an inborn desire to win.  If they like and respond well to Lazor, and Marvin sees this and gets on board, who are we to question?

Well said Sunset, well said.

[GodFather]

(01-04-2018, 09:29 PM)Steve Wrote: past is the past....

i'm looking forward.....

The past is where you learned the lesson. The future is where you apply the lesson.*








*Unless your name is Mike Brown

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-04-2018, 09:42 PM)GodFather Wrote: The past is where you learned the lesson. The future is where you apply the lesson.*








*Unless your name is Mike Brown

True, if you forget the past you are doomed to repeat it no doubt.

Lot of past from that PA to learn from...

[GodFather]

(01-04-2018, 09:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Lot of past from that PA to learn from...

A Lifetime! You'd have to hire a team round the clock with all that information! 

[CornerBlitz]

(01-03-2018, 07:46 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Many people view him as a much bigger upgrade to that of Ken Zampese. And while in 2017 they actually scored TDs under Lazor rather than Zampese, Lazor still isn't a good coach.

These stats are from Josh Kirkendall, using numbers and references from Pro Football Reference



And here are the rushing yards and where they rank in the Bengals 50 year franchise



Under Bill Lazor, the offense didn't score a TD in the second half in 5 games.

They ranked 31st in the NFL in points in the second half with only 7.

Sure. There were positives in the run game and in the final two games. But let's not forget how terrible they were against the Bears and Vikings two weeks prior. Or how they couldn't score more than 3 points against Pittsburgh in the 2nd half.

Bill Lazor is not a good coordinator. Even with other teams.
With the Dolphins in 2015, his offense ranked 28th in points in the 2nd half.

Resigning him is not a good move.

I would have gone a different direction as well however u can't expect him to revamp the offense midseason. To implement your offense you need an entire off season. 

[XenoMorph]

(01-04-2018, 07:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Kind of funny it works for other teams against our D but it never works for us, or sad, either way you take it.

TE screen has worked here before though. Really the whole playbook needs to be thrown out and Lazor needs to rewrite a new one.

Not good when Defenses know the exact play you are going to run before you run it.

Another reason i cannot blame Lazor for last year.

He said the playbook looked like 3 people wrote it

Grudens Playbook
With Hue's Tinkering
And Zampese Floundering

All mixed into 1

Yeah new playbook definitely needed

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-05-2018, 11:18 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: He said the playbook looked like 3 people wrote it

Grudens Playbook
With Hue's Tinkering
And Zampese Floundering

All mixed into 1

Yeah new playbook definitely needed

No doubt, how can anyone blame him for this. Have to be judged on your own merit.

[Circleville Guy]

Shit rolls downhill. The number 1 problem with the Offense was the fact that the owner severely neglected an already poor line situation. You must first have talent. I think that he got the best out of what he had. I especially liked his comments on playing to a players strengths. If tightwad does the right thing, I think that things will be fine with Lazor.

[XenoMorph]

(01-05-2018, 02:43 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Shit rolls downhill. The number 1 problem with the Offense was the fact that the owner  severely neglected an already poor line situation. You must first have talent. I think that he got the best out of what he had. I especially liked his comments on playing to a players strengths. If tightwad does the right thing, I think that things will be fine with Lazor.

What I'm interested to know is if marvin finally wrestled control of the wallet away from MB....    Look if you wanna SB before you Go.... give me the wallet.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-05-2018, 02:43 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Shit rolls downhill. The number 1 problem with the Offense was the fact that the owner  severely neglected an already poor line situation. You must first have talent. I think that he got the best out of what he had. I especially liked his comments on playing to a players strengths. If tightwad does the right thing, I think that things will be fine with Lazor.

Probably our biggest problem here is the coaches, namely Marv not using players to their strengths.

This would be huge if this changed for the better.

Have to put your players in positions to succeed.

(01-05-2018, 03:58 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: What I'm interested to know is if marvin finally wrestled control of the wallet away from MB....    Look if you wanna SB before you Go.... give me the wallet.

Should be interesting, we will see.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-03-2018, 07:46 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Many people view him as a much bigger upgrade to that of Ken Zampese. And while in 2017 they actually scored TDs under Lazor rather than Zampese, Lazor still isn't a good coach.

These stats are from Josh Kirkendall, using numbers and references from Pro Football Reference



And here are the rushing yards and where they rank in the Bengals 50 year franchise



Under Bill Lazor, the offense didn't score a TD in the second half in 5 games.

They ranked 31st in the NFL in points in the second half with only 7.

Sure. There were positives in the run game and in the final two games. But let's not forget how terrible they were against the Bears and Vikings two weeks prior. Or how they couldn't score more than 3 points against Pittsburgh in the 2nd half.

Bill Lazor is not a good coordinator. Even with other teams.
With the Dolphins in 2015, his offense ranked 28th in points in the 2nd half.

Resigning him is not a good move.

I just looked up something else to go along with this...The 2014 and 2015 Miami Dolphins offense.

2014:
11th ranked offense. This was a run-focused offense with Lamar Miller rushing for 1099 yards and 8 TDs with 38 receptions for 275 receiving yards and another TD.
The receiving corps comprised of Mike Wallace, Jarvis Landry, Charles Clay, Brian Hartline, and Rishard Matthews. No receiver topped 1000 yards, but Wallace, Landry, and Clay each had over 600 yards. Tannehill passed for a 66% completion percentage for 4000+ yards with 27 TDs and 12 INTs.

2015:
27th ranked offense that was 30th in 3rd down conversion percentage. This offense was slightly more balanced with Miller having just 872 rush yards and 8 TDs while adding 47 receptions for 397 yards and 2 more TDs. Tannehill passed for 61% completion percentage for 4200+ yards with 24 TDs and again 12 INTs. Wallace and Clay were gone and in their place Landry had 1100+ yards, Matthews 600+, and Jordan Cameron, Kenny Stills, and DeVante Parker combined for 1300+ yards between the three of them.

I think the 2015 Dolphins offense closely mimics the 2017 Bengals. Really low ranking, no 1000-yard rusher, QB was efficient though, and the yardage for receivers is spread out beyond the WR1. Only rather than a third receiver being in the top of the rec yard charts, the Bengals had a pass-catching RB in Bernard.

Also, the 2014 OL had three first rounders (Branden Albert, Mike Pouncey, JuWuan James) and two second rounders (Satele, Colledge). 2015 had a downgrade on OL with Dallas Thomas (former 3rd rounder), Billy Turner (3rd rounder), and Jason Fox (former Lions 4th rounder) replacing Colledge, Satele, and James.

I think if the Bengals are to succeed with Lazor, they need to really focus on improvement in the run game and use that to set up the pass. Also, beef up that OL with better players. But from looking back at the 2014 Dolphin stats and rankings, there might just be more hope than before. At least for me.