I Hope Reds.com Joking on Trading Puig or Roark this Month.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-15-2019, 03:29 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: The issue I have with Winker is that he tends to hit into double plays.  I cannot find the stats on this, but it seems to be a problem for him.  The game I was at, Winker hit into two DP.  I think his fielding is average to below average compared to Ervin and Puig.  I still like Winker though and he can hit the ball well.

Winker's defense is definitely not as good as Ervin or Puig, but that's why Winker is best suited for LF. Ervin is probably best suited for RF but he can play all three spots.

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I don't like Puig. I like him a lot actually. But, just like I thought with Scooter before Senzel was moved to CF, if there's potentially a good replacement waiting in the wings, I'd rather see the extra $$ spent elsewhere. With Roark, Wood, and DeSclafani all set to hit FA after this season, I think a lot of money will need to be shoveled into SP if the Reds really want to build off of this year.

[Murdock2420]

(07-15-2019, 03:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Winker's defense is definitely not as good as Ervin or Puig, but that's why Winker is best suited for LF. Ervin is probably best suited for RF but he can play all three spots.

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I don't like Puig. I like him a lot actually. But, just like I thought with Scooter before Senzel was moved to CF, if there's potentially a good replacement waiting in the wings, I'd rather see the extra $$ spent elsewhere. With Roark, Wood, and DeSclafani all set to hit FA after this season, I think a lot of money will need to be shoveled into SP if the Reds really want to build off of this year.

I am right there with you. I like Puig and his attitude and what he brings to the team, but before he leaves and the Reds get nothing for him, why not trade him and start the other 3 with Peraza and Dietrich as the back-ups out there. Talking about 3 top draft picks in Winker, Senzel and Ervin all of whom are going to be under team control for several years. 

If Puig signs a deal and wants to stay, then all bets are off and you trade whoever you think you can part with from the others.

[Circleville Guy]

(07-15-2019, 03:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Risky for production? You can say that about any young player coming up. You won't know for sure until you put them out there on a longer-term basis. If you give Puig a big contract, what do you do with Ervin/Winker?

Besides, what is bad about Winker? Batting average?
If that's the concern, baseball is moving more towards OPS rather than BA. Winker's career OPS is .831, which is one of the highest on the team. It's not some sub-.700 like Iglesias or Peraza have.

I do get what you’re saying! Winker hasn’t impressed me this year. He tried to become a homerun hitter and it’s really hurt his OBP and the homers aren’t there either. He’s not very fast or a very good defender. I would be trying extend Puig but he probably won’t sign now. I don’t mind having 4 outfielders capable of starting because Bell will probably rotate 4 guys regardless of the quality of the 4th guy. Puig will probably go for the big bucks and if so, they’ll probably hold and let him walk at years end. I know I’m kinda talking in circles right now, sorry bout that!

[*ochocincos*]

(07-16-2019, 03:22 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I do get what you’re saying! Winker hasn’t impressed me this year. He tried to become a homerun hitter and it’s really hurt his OBP and the homers aren’t there either. He’s not very fast or a very good defender. I would be trying extend Puig but he probably won’t sign now. I don’t mind having 4 outfielders capable of starting because Bell will probably rotate 4 guys regardless of the quality of the 4th guy. Puig will probably go for the big bucks and if so, they’ll probably hold and let him walk at years end. I know I’m kinda talking in circles right now, sorry bout that!

Winker is on pace for 23 HRs (not great but solid) and his OBP is better than Puig and Suarez.
23 HRs was the same amount Scooter had last year, which was 2nd on the team last year.

Heck, everyone's BAs are down this year. Only one starter is actually at .270+, and that's Jose Iglesias (who has actually been struggling at the plate recently to cause his BA to drop). And between you and me, I actually prefer seeing hit after hit vs so many HRs and strikeouts like we see nowadays, but that's the way the game is trending.

[McC]

(07-06-2019, 03:29 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Puig will stay and Roark will be traded is my opinion.  Unless Wood has another set back.  

They can't trade Roark because Mahle is toast.  He has truly earned his 2-10 record.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

As soon as they dump Votto, if Winker is still in Cincinnati, he goes to first base. ATROCIOUS outfielder. Way too uncoordinated.

I agree with Murdock, trade Puig and I hope they get some bullpen help, call up VanMeter and roll with Senzel, Winker, Ervin and VanMeter as your outfield.

Trade Roark, Mahle is not even close to toast. He's only had a few bad games and almost zero run support.

[McC]

(07-17-2019, 01:48 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: As soon as they dump Votto, if Winker is still in Cincinnati, he goes to first base. ATROCIOUS outfielder. Way too uncoordinated.

I agree with Murdock, trade Puig and I hope they get some bullpen help, call up VanMeter and roll with Senzel, Winker, Ervin and VanMeter as your outfield.

Trade Roark, Mahle is not even close to toast. He's only had a few bad games and almost zero run support.

Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.  The annual dump Votto nonsense.  VanMeter is a minor league monster and major league bum.  DO NOT even think about getting rid of Puig.  That's beyond stupid.  

And Mahle suxx.  Decent arm but no clue how to pitch.  2-10, headed for 4-20.  He has found his level and it is very low.  I get the impression the Reds have zero minor league pitching just from the fact that they keep sending Mahle out there.

Love your plan to stay bad for ten more years.  Woo hoo. Sooner or later, you have to start keeping people and stop trading everyone away.

[McC]

(07-16-2019, 01:10 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I am right there with you. I like Puig and his attitude and what he brings to the team, but before he leaves and the Reds get nothing for him, why not trade him and start the other 3 with Peraza and Dietrich as the back-ups out there. Talking about 3 top draft picks in Winker, Senzel and Ervin all of whom are going to be under team control for several years. 

If Puig signs a deal and wants to stay, then all bets are off and you trade whoever you think you can part with from the others.

Puig has found a home here.  He is having a ball.  He hardly strikes me as itching to leave.  

[Circleville Guy]

(07-16-2019, 09:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Winker is on pace for 23 HRs (not great but solid) and his OBP is better than Puig and Suarez.
23 HRs was the same amount Scooter had last year, which was 2nd on the team last year.

Heck, everyone's BAs are down this year. Only one starter is actually at .270+, and that's Jose Iglesias (who has actually been struggling at the plate recently to cause his BA to drop). And between you and me, I actually prefer seeing hit after hit vs so many HRs and strikeouts like we see nowadays, but that's the way the game is trending.

Last year he hit .299 and OBP was .404. This year he’s hitting .250 and his OBP is .330. Most of his HR’s were at the beginning of the year. His WAR is down to 0.1. He’s basically been a replacement level player this year. Winker and Peraza have the worst WAR of any position player on the team... King Votto isn’t doing much better. I didn’t count Scooter since he’s just getting back. The position players haven’t played well as a whole but Winker has been the worst so far.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Part of the reason that Mahle is 2-10 is because the albatross has a grand total of 23 RBI. The backup catcher has more than that. The most expensive player on the team is dragging them down

[*ochocincos*]

(07-17-2019, 02:51 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Part of the reason that Mahle is 2-10 is because the albatross has a grand total of 23 RBI. The backup catcher has more than that. The most expensive player on the team is dragging them down

And part of that reason is because he's batting 2nd. He's usually not having any RISP when he's batting. 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-17-2019, 02:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: And part of that reason is because he's batting 2nd. He's usually not having any RISP when he's batting. 

And another part of the reason is his growing strikeouts even though 90% of his swings are check swings. Both leadoff hitters have more RBI than Votto.

[Circleville Guy]

(07-17-2019, 02:20 PM)McC Wrote: Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.  The annual dump Votto nonsense.  VanMeter is a minor league monster and major league bum.  DO NOT even think about getting rid of Puig.  That's beyond stupid.  

And Mahle suxx.  Decent arm but no clue how to pitch.  2-10, headed for 4-20.  He has found his level and it is very low.  I get the impression the Reds have zero minor league pitching just from the fact that they keep sending Mahle out there.

Love your plan to stay bad for ten more years.  Woo hoo. Sooner or later, you have to start keeping people and stop trading everyone away.

Come on now McC... Nobody’s ideas are “beyond stupid”. There’s also no definitive on right or wrong here. We mostly just post some stats, followed by our opinions. I personally think that dumping Votto is nonsense but only because the team can’t without eating the money anyway. He hasn’t added anything to this team though. Mahle has been the worst of the Reds starters but he has a positive WAR which is all anyone usually can hope for from their number 5. Last years Homer Bailey qualified as “suxx”. Mahle is trending the wrong way, he probably has one of the worst run support in baseball. I agree with you on keeping Puig but it can’t be for a stupid ass Votto/Bailey type bad contract. The team just can’t continue to be handcuffed, that plan has contributed largely to why the team has been bad.

[McC]

(07-17-2019, 03:21 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Come on now McC... Nobody’s ideas are “beyond stupid”. There’s also no definitive on right or wrong here. We mostly just post some stats, followed by our opinions. I personally think that dumping Votto is nonsense but only because the team can’t without eating the money anyway. He hasn’t added anything to this team though. Mahle has been the worst of the Reds starters but he has a positive WAR which is all anyone usually can hope for from their number 5. Last years Homer Bailey qualified as “suxx”. Mahle is trending the wrong way, he probably has one of the worst run support in baseball. I agree with you on keeping Puig but it can’t be for a stupid ass Votto/Bailey type bad contract. The team just can’t continue to be handcuffed, that plan has contributed largely to why the team has been bad.

Dumping Votto is nonsense precisely for the reason you stated.  I think the only reason Mahle still has a job is that the Reds have absolutely no one else to replace him.

 But you can't keep trading players away.  I say, and I think this is what will happen, stand pat and let the rest of the season play itself out.  There's no point in being buyers unless you have a real shot at winning the division.  Do not give up any assets to make a run at a WC so you can play one game for the chance to get murdered by the Dodgers.

The Reds have come pretty far this season but they haven't come far enough to really contend.  They are still learning how to win.  Shoot for next year.

And I don't think Puig will break the bank.  They need what he brings to the table on and off the field.  But do it now so he doesn't hit the FA market.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

So Puig struggling for over a quarter of the season then finally turning it around is equal to a rookie playing pinch hitter/late innings double switch for 30 games? Too many people live in the now with little perspective.

What did the Reds gain by keeping Matt Harvey last year?

The only way that Puig is extended is because the Reds overpaid. This is Puig's only chance for a big money deal while in his prime. Any agent that doesn't allow his client to hit the open market without a crazy money extension should be fired and never get another top client again. I know that fans of small market clubs hate this, but it's true.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-17-2019, 01:48 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: As soon as they dump Votto, if Winker is still in Cincinnati, he goes to first base.

Also, I thought it was obvious by the "if Winker is still in Cincinnati" that I was referring to years down the road. Yeah, I want Votto gone, but the albatross will be hanging around their necks for years.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

The Reds going 2-4 out of the All-Star break while the first place Cubs going 5-1 might have just traded Puig and Roark.

Extending Iglesias is much more likely but still might not happen.

[Circleville Guy]

(07-17-2019, 03:48 PM)McC Wrote: Dumping Votto is nonsense precisely for the reason you stated.  I think the only reason Mahle still has a job is that the Reds have absolutely no one else to replace him.

 But you can't keep trading players away.  I say, and I think this is what will happen, stand pat and let the rest of the season play itself out.  There's no point in being buyers unless you have a real shot at winning the division.  Do not give up any assets to make a run at a WC so you can play one game for the chance to get murdered by the Dodgers.

The Reds have come pretty far this season but they haven't come far enough to really contend.  They are still learning how to win.  Shoot for next year.

And I don't think Puig will break the bank.  They need what he brings to the table on and off the field.  But do it now so he doesn't hit the FA market.

No, you can’t keep trading players away but you do have to continue to try to improve and that sometimes means trading guys that aren’t in the long term plans. The Reds just never seem to have a long term plan. Puig makes sense but only on a good deal. If he won’t negotiate now to a deal that’s reasonable then get an asset for him. Stop letting guys walk for nothing because ownership is halfass trying to win. The teams plans seem to change consistently. Their rebuild was absolutely grossly mismanaged.

[Circleville Guy]

(07-17-2019, 06:29 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: The Reds going 2-4 out of the All-Star break while the first place Cubs going 5-1 might have just traded Puig and Roark.

Extending Iglesias is much more likely but still might not happen.

True and Iglesias hasn’t been that great as of late either. It’s rough when your two teams are the Bengals and the Reds.

[McC]

(07-17-2019, 04:56 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: So Puig struggling for over a quarter of the season then finally turning it around is equal to a rookie playing pinch hitter/late innings double switch for 30 games? Too many people live in the now with little perspective.

What did the Reds gain by keeping Matt Harvey last year?

The only way that Puig is extended is because the Reds overpaid. This is Puig's only chance for a big money deal while in his prime. Any agent that doesn't allow his client to hit the open market without a crazy money extension should be fired and never get another top client again. I know that fans of small market clubs hate this, but it's true.

You see nothing of the finer points.  Even when he wasn't hitting, he was playing great defense and having an impact.  You comparing Puig to Matt Harvey says it all.