Thoughts after a few weeks...

[thillan]

We all know they weren't going to be good this year, I kinda was expecting 49ers to whoop us.

Anyways..

1. AJ isn't going to save the team. Let him heal.

2. I'm interested in seeing how Preston Brown grades on PFF, because he looks like a disaster to me. If you're MLB is slow, your defense is slow. And man is he getting blown by.

3. I like Ross and his coming out party. I'll always dread that pick for the next 3 that came after him, but he's making it worth something finally. It's fun having our own Tyreek Hill type.

4. OL - They are who we thought they were.

5. DL - Still not sure how to feel about them. My initial reaction is overrated, but I just think the 49ers OL is good.

6. WHY DO WE STILL HAVE DRE KIRKPATRICK. God, I cannot STAND this guy.

7. So.. again, we have an absolute (IMO) awful draft class. Only contribution is a 4th rounder who didn't play well at all today, and an undrafted rookie. Why did we go for Sample in the second? What a waste.

8. I do enjoy ZTs offense more, and do see potential, I just think we severely lack talent. But we have got to find a time to take a chance on an upside QB, Andy just isn't going to cut it. Listened to Chris Simm's podcast, and I agree with his line "Andy Dalton won't win you any games, but he can lose them for you." Of course this isn't all his fault in any shape, but people are so shy about putting too much blame on the QUARTERBACK. That's the leader!

9. Follow up.. I don't even enjoy the upcoming QBs in the draft

That's all. Not too thrilled to say that another 4 or 5 win season is in the bags, but it is what it is. Hope we can nail the offseason moves and become a competitor again.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-16-2019, 12:08 AM)thillan Wrote: We all know they weren't going to be good this year, I kinda was expecting 49ers to whoop us.

Anyways..

1. AJ isn't going to save the team. Let him heal.

2. I'm interested in seeing how Preston Brown grades on PFF, because he looks like a disaster to me. If you're MLB is slow, your defense is slow. And man is he getting blown by.

3. I like Ross and his coming out party. I'll always dread that pick for the next 3 that came after him, but he's making it worth something finally. It's fun having our own Tyreek Hill type.

4. OL - They are who we thought they were.

5. DL - Still not sure how to feel about them. My initial reaction is overrated, but I just think the 49ers OL is good.

6. WHY DO WE STILL HAVE DRE KIRKPATRICK. God, I cannot STAND this guy.

7. So.. again, we have an absolute (IMO) awful draft class. Only contribution is a 4th rounder who didn't play well at all today, and an undrafted rookie. Why did we go for Pratt in the second? What a waste.

8. I do enjoy ZTs offense more, and do see potential, I just think we severely lack talent. But we have got to find a time to take a chance on an upside QB, Andy just isn't going to cut it. Listened to Chris Simm's podcast, and I agree with his line "Andy Dalton won't win you any games, but he can lose them for you." Of course this isn't all his fault in any shape, but people are so shy about putting too much blame on the QUARTERBACK. That's the leader!

9. Follow up.. I don't even enjoy the upcoming QBs in the draft  

That's all. Not too thrilled to say that another 4 or 5 win season is in the bags, but it is what it is. Hope we can nail the offseason moves and become a competitor again.

10. Have they won a single damn coin flip this year? At all?

[J24]

If you fix the LB position and Offensive line position then this is a good team. Problem is we have been saying that for the 4th season in a row. Honestly Duke might be the Dumbest Human being to ever be GM excluding Mike Brown.

[impactplaya]

No team can overcome playing 4 LTs and it's only
Week 2.

The LBers Need a serious overhaul in 2019.
Vigil and Brown are simply bad
The film does not lie.

The lack of running game is having a domino effect
On the rest of the team

[thillan]

Also — HOW many times are we gonna mess up these O line picks? This is ridiculous. We can never progress as a team because our line constantly sucks, you have got to start getting this unit together.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-16-2019, 12:24 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: If you fix the LB position and Offensive line position then this is a good team. Problem is we have been saying that for the 4th season in a row. Honestly Duke might be the Dumbest Human being to ever be GM excluding Mike Brown.

This makes no sense. How can you say Duke built a good team and call him the dumbest in the same post?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 12:08 AM)thillan Wrote: We all know they weren't going to be good this year, I kinda was expecting 49ers to whoop us.

Anyways..

1. AJ isn't going to save the team. Let him heal.

2. I'm interested in seeing how Preston Brown grades on PFF, because he looks like a disaster to me. If you're MLB is slow, your defense is slow. And man is he getting blown by.

3. I like Ross and his coming out party. I'll always dread that pick for the next 3 that came after him, but he's making it worth something finally. It's fun having our own Tyreek Hill type.

4. OL - They are who we thought they were.

5. DL - Still not sure how to feel about them. My initial reaction is overrated, but I just think the 49ers OL is good.

6. WHY DO WE STILL HAVE DRE KIRKPATRICK. God, I cannot STAND this guy.

7. So.. again, we have an absolute (IMO) awful draft class. Only contribution is a 4th rounder who didn't play well at all today, and an undrafted rookie. Why did we go for Pratt in the second? What a waste.

8. I do enjoy ZTs offense more, and do see potential, I just think we severely lack talent. But we have got to find a time to take a chance on an upside QB, Andy just isn't going to cut it. Listened to Chris Simm's podcast, and I agree with his line "Andy Dalton won't win you any games, but he can lose them for you." Of course this isn't all his fault in any shape, but people are so shy about putting too much blame on the QUARTERBACK. That's the leader!

9. Follow up.. I don't even enjoy the upcoming QBs in the draft  

That's all. Not too thrilled to say that another 4 or 5 win season is in the bags, but it is what it is. Hope we can nail the offseason moves and become a competitor again.

I hope this doesn't derail the thread and I will try my best in making it about the QB play overall and not strictly about Dalton.  Try to do the same and not have this be a Dalton is great vs Dalton is terrible.

You are using the buzzwords of "taking a chance on an upside QB"  I hate this expression with a passion.  Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Kyler Murray, Dwayne Haskins and DeShaun Watson are who you mean and they are not more talented, they can just run faster with the football when they take off and run.  The joke of Jackson being a RB is still true.  This isn't because they are "better" QBs, they just have a 1 dimensional element that have to be taken into account when creating a defensive game plan.

This expression also doesn't take into account that while Jackson has found early success this season, he hasn't really been tested yet.  Mahomes did have a season to remember, but his success is primarily on Reid and other players around him coming up big.  Imagine if Travis Kelce was injured as much as Eifert has been.  Imagine no running game, imagine only having 1 real threat at WR and that guy going through injuries, with 0 OLine protection, do you think Mahomes wins in Cincinnati?  I don't think so.  Mahomes "No look" pass last year, failed badly this year, what was worse is that he tried to force it just because he wanted the highlight real.  When your team wins though, it is forgiven.

The reason QB play is so controversial is due to the way it is analyzed.  SF had Alex Smith, they went to the NFCCG, the following year, Smith is injured, Kap is put into action, SF damn near wins the SB, the announcers said that "this is the difference between Smith and Kap, 1 is only going to get you to the NFCCG, the other will get you a SB appearance and with time a win".

Fast forward to the Eagles.  Carson Wentz misses on a  throw to Alshon Jeffery, the announcers put everything on Jeffery.  Blaming him for not being where he is supposed to be, making his QB look bad, needing to be a better WR.  A few games after getting hurt and Foles takes over, the Eagles attempt the same play with the same result.  No more bashing Jeffery,  Foles now is the one that needs to be better.

Odds are the Eagles will never win the SB with Wentz, yet Wentz is looked at as a vastly superior QB and that the only reason for him NOT being a SB winning QB is due to his injury.  Why didn't they say the same thing about Foles as they did Kap?

Now to defend Dalton... Simms if wrong here.  Dalton has in fact won games for us by himself.  The most epic and memorable one was the Seattle game a few years ago.  He has also lost games, but so does every other QB in the league, however when Dalton loses he is scrutinized far more than when he does take over games.  If you actually go back and look at some of those close losses, you will see that Dalton wasn't the reason for the loss, and that he played good to even great.  Again look at the most recent Seattle game.  418 yards 2 TDs, driving to FG range 2 more times.  Sure the 1 fumble was heinous, the 2nd was oddly called a fumble and those are potential points, but Bullock missing a 45 yard FG doesn't help and was more instrumental to the loss than Dalton.  His pass to John Ross to close the half was just as good as any other QB in the league.  If that were Mahomes, even if KC lost, the announcers would be slobbering about that pass.  Dalton?  crickets.

[higgy100]

(09-16-2019, 12:08 AM)thillan Wrote: We all know they weren't going to be good this year, I kinda was expecting 49ers to whoop us.

Anyways..

1. AJ isn't going to save the team. Let him heal.

2. I'm interested in seeing how Preston Brown grades on PFF, because he looks like a disaster to me. If you're MLB is slow, your defense is slow. And man is he getting blown by.

3. I like Ross and his coming out party. I'll always dread that pick for the next 3 that came after him, but he's making it worth something finally. It's fun having our own Tyreek Hill type.

4. OL - They are who we thought they were.

5. DL - Still not sure how to feel about them. My initial reaction is overrated, but I just think the 49ers OL is good.

6. WHY DO WE STILL HAVE DRE KIRKPATRICK. God, I cannot STAND this guy.

7. So.. again, we have an absolute (IMO) awful draft class. Only contribution is a 4th rounder who didn't play well at all today, and an undrafted rookie. Why did we go for Pratt in the second? What a waste.

8. I do enjoy ZTs offense more, and do see potential, I just think we severely lack talent. But we have got to find a time to take a chance on an upside QB, Andy just isn't going to cut it. Listened to Chris Simm's podcast, and I agree with his line "Andy Dalton won't win you any games, but he can lose them for you." Of course this isn't all his fault in any shape, but people are so shy about putting too much blame on the QUARTERBACK. That's the leader!

9. Follow up.. I don't even enjoy the upcoming QBs in the draft  

That's all. Not too thrilled to say that another 4 or 5 win season is in the bags, but it is what it is. Hope we can nail the offseason moves and become a competitor again.

Not sure how anybody thought 49Rs were going to "whoop" us after last week? Did I expect a W? Wasn't sure at all about that but your nuts if you thought this team would lay down and lose by 4 TD's at hime.

[*pally*]

They looked like a team going through their 3rd offensive and defensive changes in 3 years. And doing it with gaps in the talent pool. The best laid plans on the OL collapsed. I think we can honestly say that the line would likely look much different had Williams not gotten hurt and Boling retired and then Glenn getting hurt. The struggle to bring in some free agents may be all monetary or the fact there is a brand new coach on a team projected to be bad may have a big role as well.|
Realistically, no one truly thought that this team would be good this year we were looking for improvement. We saw that last week....we reverted this week. They are not 1 player away from being good which is why it makes no sense to trade away draft picks.
We will get to see what this team and coaching staff is made of this week. Can they rebound or not?

[thillan]

(09-16-2019, 08:07 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I hope this doesn't derail the thread and I will try my best in making it about the QB play overall and not strictly about Dalton.  Try to do the same and not have this be a Dalton is great vs Dalton is terrible.

You are using the buzzwords of "taking a chance on an upside QB"  I hate this expression with a passion.  Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Kyler Murray, Dwayne Haskins and DeShaun Watson are who you mean and they are not more talented, they can just run faster with the football when they take off and run.  The joke of Jackson being a RB is still true.  This isn't because they are "better" QBs, they just have a 1 dimensional element that have to be taken into account when creating a defensive game plan.

This expression also doesn't take into account that while Jackson has found early success this season, he hasn't really been tested yet.  Mahomes did have a season to remember, but his success is primarily on Reid and other players around him coming up big.  Imagine if Travis Kelce was injured as much as Eifert has been.  Imagine no running game, imagine only having 1 real threat at WR and that guy going through injuries, with 0 OLine protection, do you think Mahomes wins in Cincinnati?  I don't think so.  Mahomes "No look" pass last year, failed badly this year, what was worse is that he tried to force it just because he wanted the highlight real.  When your team wins though, it is forgiven.

The reason QB play is so controversial is due to the way it is analyzed.  SF had Alex Smith, they went to the NFCCG, the following year, Smith is injured, Kap is put into action, SF damn near wins the SB, the announcers said that "this is the difference between Smith and Kap, 1 is only going to get you to the NFCCG, the other will get you a SB appearance and with time a win".

Fast forward to the Eagles.  Carson Wentz misses on a  throw to Alshon Jeffery, the announcers put everything on Jeffery.  Blaming him for not being where he is supposed to be, making his QB look bad, needing to be a better WR.  A few games after getting hurt and Foles takes over, the Eagles attempt the same play with the same result.  No more bashing Jeffery,  Foles now is the one that needs to be better.

Odds are the Eagles will never win the SB with Wentz, yet Wentz is looked at as a vastly superior QB and that the only reason for him NOT being a SB winning QB is due to his injury.  Why didn't they say the same thing about Foles as they did Kap?

Now to defend Dalton... Simms if wrong here.  Dalton has in fact won games for us by himself.  The most epic and memorable one was the Seattle game a few years ago.  He has also lost games, but so does every other QB in the league, however when Dalton loses he is scrutinized far more than when he does take over games.  If you actually go back and look at some of those close losses, you will see that Dalton wasn't the reason for the loss, and that he played good to even great.  Again look at the most recent Seattle game.  418 yards 2 TDs, driving to FG range 2 more times.  Sure the 1 fumble was heinous, the 2nd was oddly called a fumble and those are potential points, but Bullock missing a 45 yard FG doesn't help and was more instrumental to the loss than Dalton.  His pass to John Ross to close the half was just as good as any other QB in the league.  If that were Mahomes, even if KC lost, the announcers would be slobbering about that pass.  Dalton?  crickets.

You make some good points, and when I mean upside QB, I’m not strictly talking those names. For the future drafts, I’m just of the opinion that you shouldn’t aim for game managers, I think your guy really needs to be dynamic.

And I’m sorry, you don’t believe that a Watson, Mahomes, or Lamar Jackson are more talented than Andy Dalton? Lol sorry I just can’t take that seriously. They are WAY ahead of Dalton, yes Lamar included. People are scared to crown QBs so fast. I think Mahomes will be an all time great.

Yeah, Dalton has won us some games I agree.. I think Simms’ quote is really of a more often than not, he won’t win it for you. Which I’d agree with as well.

[Catmandude123]

To be honest it is hard to imagine Tom Brady doing much better than Dalton did yesterday but the results were predictable. Great DL against suspect O-line showed why the adage "games are won and lost in the trenches". SF rushed four and played seven in the back end which gave Dalton little chance to complete passes . Another game with no run game and Dalton was doomed. All that being said I believe there is a method to the madness when it comes to beating the Bengals with Dalton as QB. Seems he has more passes batted down than any QB I have ever seen. Also his speed when flushed from the pocket is very slow. When he is ineffective why not bring in the rookie and let him play?

[higgy100]

(09-16-2019, 10:01 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: To be honest it is hard to imagine Tom Brady doing much better than Dalton did yesterday but the results were predictable. Great DL against suspect O-line showed why the adage "games are won and lost in the trenches". SF rushed four and played seven in the back end which gave Dalton little chance to complete passes . Another game with no run game and Dalton was doomed. All that being said I believe there is a method to the madness when it comes to beating the Bengals with Dalton as QB. Seems he has more passes batted down than any QB I have ever seen. Also his speed when flushed from the pocket is very slow. When he is ineffective why not bring in the rookie and let him play?

Well, they actually had 5-6 hugging the LOS more often than not but your point is well taken. Seattle a week ago played far more on the LOS because they had no game film on Taylor and the new offense so they had to sell out and dared AD to beat them. AD was able to get favorable one-on-one matchups.

The new MO on Cinci. after yesterday is that this OL is really terrible running the ball and that even an adequate defense can stop the run with 5-6 defenders, leaving another 5-6 back in the secondary. Dalton won't be able to get many favorable matchups without at least a great individual move like Boyd did with the out and up move yesterday in the 1st quarter that went for 40 yards..

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(09-16-2019, 12:08 AM)thillan Wrote: We all know they weren't going to be good this year, I kinda was expecting 49ers to whoop us.

Anyways..

1. AJ isn't going to save the team. Let him heal.

2. I'm interested in seeing how Preston Brown grades on PFF, because he looks like a disaster to me. If you're MLB is slow, your defense is slow. And man is he getting blown by.

3. I like Ross and his coming out party. I'll always dread that pick for the next 3 that came after him, but he's making it worth something finally. It's fun having our own Tyreek Hill type.

4. OL - They are who we thought they were.

5. DL - Still not sure how to feel about them. My initial reaction is overrated, but I just think the 49ers OL is good.

6. WHY DO WE STILL HAVE DRE KIRKPATRICK. God, I cannot STAND this guy.

7. So.. again, we have an absolute (IMO) awful draft class. Only contribution is a 4th rounder who didn't play well at all today, and an undrafted rookie. Why did we go for Pratt in the second? What a waste.

8. I do enjoy ZTs offense more, and do see potential, I just think we severely lack talent. But we have got to find a time to take a chance on an upside QB, Andy just isn't going to cut it. Listened to Chris Simm's podcast, and I agree with his line "Andy Dalton won't win you any games, but he can lose them for you." Of course this isn't all his fault in any shape, but people are so shy about putting too much blame on the QUARTERBACK. That's the leader!

9. Follow up.. I don't even enjoy the upcoming QBs in the draft  

That's all. Not too thrilled to say that another 4 or 5 win season is in the bags, but it is what it is. Hope we can nail the offseason moves and become a competitor again.

If it's any consolation we didn't go for Pratt in the second. He was a third round pick.

Our second round pick had a 21 yard catch.

[thillan]

(09-16-2019, 12:28 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: If it's any consolation we didn't go for Pratt in the second. He was a third round pick.

Our second round pick had a 21 yard catch.

Yeah that was a typo lol, I meant Sample.

[Lionel Hutz]

Current state of the franchise truly is depressing. I was willing to give Taylor time, but then the coaching hires and taking Sample in 2nd round basically confirmed our suspicions. Blow it up and start over.

[bengals67]

I predicted a 3 to 4 win season at best but ate crow last week after Seattle.

This week they were the team I expected.

The o line was a disaster last year and very little was done to fix it. Signing Bobby Hart , no other decent free agents, and not using another high pick besides No. 1 on o line.

The linebackers were a disaster last year and very little was done to fix it. Compare what we did to Green Bay off season and their D was way better than our last year.

Draft classes the last few years have been below average to say the least and with hindsight the pick of Sample in second round is truly inexplicable.

If you are not going to sign free agents and instead build through the draft, then you should invest in having one of the best scouting departments in the league. I am sure we are at the bottom on money spent on scouts.

Buffalo is goin to blow us out next week. They have a good defense, a strong running game, and a QB that we will not be able to contain.

Team will be fighting Miami for first round pick in 2020.

PS-completely outcoached yesterday. This season is going to be very ugly.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 09:50 AM)thillan Wrote: You make some good points, and when I mean upside QB, I’m not strictly talking those names. For the future drafts, I’m just of the opinion that you shouldn’t aim for game managers, I think your guy really needs to be dynamic.

And I’m sorry, you don’t believe that a Watson, Mahomes, or Lamar Jackson are more talented than Andy Dalton? Lol sorry I just can’t take that seriously. They are WAY ahead of Dalton, yes Lamar included. People are scared to crown QBs so fast. I think Mahomes will be an all time great.

Yeah, Dalton has won us some games I agree.. I think Simms’ quote is really of a more often than not, he won’t win it for you. Which I’d agree with as well.

You really think that being faster when running with the ball makes a QB more talented?  Now that is not something to take seriously.

When you say "way" ahead you have to be speaking hyperbolic, if not you really need to readjust how you evaluate QBs.  You are crowning Jackson after 2 games of passing (he ran last year)?  It isn't about being "scared", it is about realizing that these guys aren't as special as the pundits claim.  If the Chiefs WRs start dropping passes or breaking off of routes and not playing DB when the defender is in position, leading to INTs.  Will Mahomes still be "way" ahead of Dalton then?

To me Tom Brady is a game manager, he just manages the offense to fit the system to perfection.  Michael Vick was dynamic, so is Cam Newton, so is Baker Mayfield.  Aaron Rodgers is also dynamic, to be critical of a SB winning QB, but he only has 1 win.  Tom Brady has 6, as a game manager.

I disagree that more often than not Dalton will lose the games or "not win" it for you.  Dalton has shown that with the same protection as Tom Brady, he can make some great and accurate throws.  Even without the best and everything going for him, he has shown an ability to pull off some amazing plays.  Some have not worked out, but no more or less than for Brees, Brady and Rodgers.  Right now, everything is coming up roses for Mahomes and Jackson, but once met with adversity, losing players in FA, injuries, draft bust passes not being caught, defensive adjustments, and we may see that these two are not as "dynamic" as they are being called.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-16-2019, 12:46 PM)bengals67 Wrote: I predicted a 3 to 4 win season at best but ate crow last week after Seattle.

This week they were the team I expected.

The o line was a disaster last year and very little was done to fix it. Signing Bobby Hart , no other decent free agents, and not using another high pick besides No. 1 on o line.

The linebackers were a disaster last year and very little was done to fix it. Compare what we did to Green Bay off season and their D was way better than our last year.

Draft classes the last few years have been below average to say the least and with hindsight the pick of Sample in second round is truly inexplicable.

If you are not going to sign free agents and instead build through the draft, then you should invest in having one of the best scouting departments in the league. I am sure we are at the bottom on money spent on scouts.

Buffalo is goin to blow us out next week. They have a good defense, a strong running game, and a QB that we will not be able to contain.

Team will be fighting Miami for first round pick in 2020.

PS-completely outcoached yesterday. This season is going to be very ugly.

You ate crow after a 1 point loss to Seattle?

[THE PISTONS]

(09-16-2019, 01:18 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: You really think that being faster when running with the ball makes a QB more talented?  Now that is not something to take seriously.

When you say "way" ahead you have to be speaking hyperbolic, if not you really need to readjust how you evaluate QBs.  You are crowning Jackson after 2 games of passing (he ran last year)?  It isn't about being "scared", it is about realizing that these guys aren't as special as the pundits claim.  If the Chiefs WRs start dropping passes or breaking off of routes and not playing DB when the defender is in position, leading to INTs.  Will Mahomes still be "way" ahead of Dalton then?

To me Tom Brady is a game manager, he just manages the offense to fit the system to perfection.  Michael Vick was dynamic, so is Cam Newton, so is Baker Mayfield.  Aaron Rodgers is also dynamic, to be critical of a SB winning QB, but he only has 1 win.  Tom Brady has 6, as a game manager.

I disagree that more often than not Dalton will lose the games or "not win" it for you.  Dalton has shown that with the same protection as Tom Brady, he can make some great and accurate throws.  Even without the best and everything going for him, he has shown an ability to pull off some amazing plays.  Some have not worked out, but no more or less than for Brees, Brady and Rodgers.  Right now, everything is coming up roses for Mahomes and Jackson, but once met with adversity, losing players in FA, injuries, draft bust passes not being caught, defensive adjustments, and we may see that these two are not as "dynamic" as they are being called.

What I'll say is IF you put a young Tom Brady on the Bengals, he probably doesn't develop into the player he is now. Same with Rodgers. Mahomes.

And if you put a young Andy Dalton on the Chiefs under Andy Reid, he probably ends up better than he is here.

[thillan]

(09-16-2019, 01:18 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: You really think that being faster when running with the ball makes a QB more talented?  Now that is not something to take seriously.

When you say "way" ahead you have to be speaking hyperbolic, if not you really need to readjust how you evaluate QBs.  You are crowning Jackson after 2 games of passing (he ran last year)?  It isn't about being "scared", it is about realizing that these guys aren't as special as the pundits claim.  If the Chiefs WRs start dropping passes or breaking off of routes and not playing DB when the defender is in position, leading to INTs.  Will Mahomes still be "way" ahead of Dalton then?

To me Tom Brady is a game manager, he just manages the offense to fit the system to perfection.  Michael Vick was dynamic, so is Cam Newton, so is Baker Mayfield.  Aaron Rodgers is also dynamic, to be critical of a SB winning QB, but he only has 1 win.  Tom Brady has 6, as a game manager.

I disagree that more often than not Dalton will lose the games or "not win" it for you.  Dalton has shown that with the same protection as Tom Brady, he can make some great and accurate throws.  Even without the best and everything going for him, he has shown an ability to pull off some amazing plays.  Some have not worked out, but no more or less than for Brees, Brady and Rodgers.  Right now, everything is coming up roses for Mahomes and Jackson, but once met with adversity, losing players in FA, injuries, draft bust passes not being caught, defensive adjustments, and we may see that these two are not as "dynamic" as they are being called.

Yes, Lamar is more talented than Dalton.

Yes, even with those WR mistakes (how does that affect QB talent?), Mahomes is LEAGUES ahead of Dalton.

I think it’s funny you haven’t mentioned Watson. Is it because he also played behind a crap o-line, didn’t have a star RB, and one star receiver? His offense might have been worse than ours last year. Perfect example, he has such amazing talent that he can overcome it.