BUNGLE 4 BURROW COMPLETE

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 01:53 PM)bengaloo Wrote: For the record I was a Chase Young guy all year until a few weeks ago when I watched Burrow play in some big games, and honestly what he showed was more than Ive seen in a QB from college in a long time, and he did it against a bunch of future NFL ballers on Bama, Georgia, Auburn, Florida, etc. I mean what this guy has done is amazing. And he's not a one year wonder. He was solid as heck last year too, but this season his game is elevated in a way where even me, a defensive old school run and stop the run kind of guy can admit we cant pass it up on him. He may turn out special.

This is said about a prospect every year....  I get tired of hearing it.  Burrow is no different than Johnny Manziel in that regard.  Matthew Stafford, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Sam Bradford.  RGIII, Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, Allen, Winston.... the list goes on.

They all may turn out special.

I am still an Andrew Thomas guy... nothing has changed on that front.  The only thing that has changed is that instead of taking Bredeson in the 2nd round, I would take Eason and that is because we HAVE to take a QB this year.

Ideally, Dalton would have been the starter next year with a revamped OLine.  Finley is giving another year to immerse himself in the game.  Then after next season, we roll with Finley.  If Finley doesn't produce behind a strong OLine and 2 years, then you draft his replacement.

That scenario would give us the best chance at success next season while preparing for the future without Dalton.

[bengaloo]

(12-23-2019, 02:02 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: How is that any different than Dalton?

When people talk about Dalton, they say he can't get it done without a solid team.  "He needs Green"... yet Burrow needs the same thing.

Don't you see how messed up that sounds?

Mostly its age at this point. I,m not really cool with trying to rebuild a team around an aging Dalton. And imo, if Dalton had the kind of talent and intangibles that Burrow has wed have won playoff games and he wouldnt need a guy like Green just to look above average. QB need blockers primarily. A really good QB even needs blo0cking, but can make his WRs better by being a great accurate passer. Something Dalton never was consistently. Also, some QB have leadership qualities that make them elevate their game in big games. Dalton never showed that ever. Burrow has made his rep on that.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

What we haven't discussed is this: What offensive system will the Bengals run in 2020? If Zac Taylor and Brian Callahan are envisioning some sort of a "Ravens-lite" look, for example, Joe Burrow is not the way to go. If the Bengals want the traditional Paul Brown Ohio River Offense* then Joe Burrow is the best pick by far.





*I refuse to call it the West Coast Offense when it was invented right here!

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 02:01 PM)Wyche Wrote: Some think it rests squarely on the QB, some realize it's a team sport, and that are only so many HOF signal callers in a lifetime. It's like those that thought Johnny Fartball would be the 2nd coming, not realizing that running around like a chicken with its head cut off and chucking up prayers to Mike Evans isn't sustainable at this level.

Exactly... every QB is "special" and "can do things that hasn't been seen in a long time".

I blame the media.  They are already preparing Mahomes and Jackson's HOF jackets. They throw out the phrase "future HOF" all the time and it has now lost a lot of it's meaning.  

[bengaloo]

(12-23-2019, 02:11 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: This is said about a prospect every year....  I get tired of hearing it.  Burrow is no different than Johnny Manziel in that regard.  Matthew Stafford, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Sam Bradford.  RGIII, Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, Allen, Winston.... the list goes on.

They all may turn out special.

I am still an Andrew Thomas guy... nothing has changed on that front.  The only thing that has changed is that instead of taking Bredeson in the 2nd round, I would take Eason and that is because we HAVE to take a QB this year.

Ideally, Dalton would have been the starter next year with a revamped OLine.  Finley is giving another year to immerse himself in the game.  Then after next season, we roll with Finley.  If Finley doesn't produce behind a strong OLine and 2 years, then you draft his replacement.

That scenario would give us the best chance at success next season while preparing for the future without Dalton.

See I wasnt a person who thought much of Jonny Football. He had bust written all over him. He was a product of the system. I liked Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck and knew they would be good pros. Was never sold on Bradford, and definitely missed on Mahomes as I figured hed be a backup. Wasnt high on Trubiusky Allen or Winston either. Not the way I am Burrow. I  see Burrow as a guy in Matt Ryan and Andrew Lucks caliber except even more mobile. Both of them are better QBs than Andy. Gunslingers. If ZTs play-action based offensive system is going to work, we need a guy that has the tools Burrow has. Whether or not it will translate here remains to be seen, but you gotta try. You cant pass a guy like Burrow up because of Johnny Football and all the other QB busts over the years.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 02:12 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Mostly its age at this point. I,m not really cool with trying to rebuild a team around an aging Dalton. And imo, if Dalton had the kind of talent and intangibles that Burrow has wed have won playoff games and he wouldnt need a guy like Green just to look above average. QB need blockers primarily. A really good QB even needs blo0cking, but can make his WRs better by being a great accurate passer. Something Dalton never was consistently. Also, some QB have leadership qualities that make them elevate their game in big games. Dalton never showed that ever. Burrow has made his rep on that.

What "intangibles" are you speaking of?  This is exactly what I am talking about.  Dalton has everything that Burrow has and more, he actually has experience.  "Burrow's a competitor",  "Burrow can make all the throws", "Burrow can read the defenses"... all of these are just buzz words that have NO meaning at this point.

I get the age thing... even though Rivers, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ryan, Stafford, Manning, Flacco and Wilson are all above 30 QBs.... I am sure I missed one or two.  Would you be willing to rebuild around an "aging" Wilson or Brees?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 02:21 PM)bengaloo Wrote: See I wasnt a person who thought much of Jonny Football. He had bust written all over him. He was a product of the system. I liked Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck and knew they would be good pros. Was never sold on Bradford, and definitely missed on Mahomes as I figured hed be a backup. Wasnt high on Trubiusky Allen or Winston either. Not the way I am Burrow. I  see Burrow as a guy in Matt Ryan and Andrew Lucks caliber except even more mobile. Both of them are better QBs than Andy. Gunslingers. If ZTs play-action based offensive system is going to work, we need a guy that has the tools Burrow has. Whether or not it will translate here remains to be seen, but you gotta try. You cant pass a guy like Burrow up because of Johnny Football and all the other QB busts over the years.

I never said pass on him.  I think I have been pretty clear that we have to take him at this point.  However I see him as either a bust or another victim of ineptitude.

Burrow is also a product of a good LSU system.  He has bust written all over him, so much so... that people on these boards have compared him to Akili Smith.  

[bengaloo]

(12-23-2019, 02:22 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What "intangibles" are you speaking of?  This is exactly what I am talking about.  Dalton has everything that Burrow has and more, he actually has experience.  "Burrow's a competitor",  "Burrow can make all the throws", "Burrow can read the defenses"... all of these are just buzz words that have NO meaning at this point.

I get the age thing... even though Rivers, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ryan, Stafford, Manning, Flacco and Wilson are all above 30 QBs.... I am sure I missed one or two.  Would you be willing to rebuild around an "aging" Wilson or Brees?

Burrow is bigger, stronger, faster, throws a better deep ball and has WAY better pocket presence and performance under pressure. Its not actually even close. His accuracy is uncanny. He also has vocal leadership qualities that Andy didnt possess.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-23-2019, 02:12 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Mostly its age at this point. I,m not really cool with trying to rebuild a team around an aging Dalton. And imo, if Dalton had the kind of talent and intangibles that Burrow has wed have won playoff games and he wouldnt need a guy like Green just to look above average. QB need blockers primarily. A really good QB even needs blo0cking, but can make his WRs better by being a great accurate passer. Something Dalton never was consistently. Also, some QB have leadership qualities that make them elevate their game in big games. Dalton never showed that ever. Burrow has made his rep on that.

Consistently is the key word..... Andy's Achilles. He got more consistent later on, but that was the only problem I had with him.

[Bengalholic]

(12-23-2019, 01:47 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Yes it is time to move on.  However that isn't gonna fix anything.  Getting Burrow will NOT improve this team.  Even if Burrow was the 2nd coming of Brady or Manning... our team will NOT improve.

This past season has blame that can go around for a while.... but it seems that you and others agree that if Burrow were in stripes this season we win every game.  Look what happened with Finley when they put him in?

OK, this is starting to get silly. If you have a roster that needs upgraded in several different areas - including QB - then taking a QB who is believed to have franchise type potential is an attempt to improve the team. If Burrow is the pick, then you've hopefully addressed one position and can check it off the list, and then move on to the others. The same would be true if they take Young, for example. He would potentially add a dominant DE that would upgrade the d-line, but then you still have to tackle all the others areas of need. 

If they think Burrow is the right guy to lead this franchise going forward, then they need to take him and work their asses off to reshape this roster into one that can compete, and that would include being active in free agency and filling some of the needs with proven, quality talent. Will they do that? i'm not exactly holding my breath, but we'll see. 

As for Andy, it's just time to move on. I've supported Andy since day 1 but both he and the team just needs a fresh start. Andy certainly gets too much of the blame at times and he sure as hell isn't the only issue with this team, but having said that...he isn't blameless either. After 9 years, similar to Marvin after 16, the end results just aren't there. I don't see any reason to keep kicking the can down the road. 

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 02:26 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Burrow is bigger, stronger, faster, throws a better deep ball and has WAY better pocket presence and performance under pressure. Its not actually even close. His accuracy is uncanny. He also has vocal leadership qualities that Andy didnt possess.

In college and according to YOUR eyes.

 
I will give Burrow being "bigger" as he is 6'4".



More buzzwords... Dalton had one pregame speech that fans have harped on his whole career.  I remember many reports stating that Dalton told the team that they would win against Seattle and they did.  Just because he isn't a cry baby like Brady and Brees, doesn't mean he isn't a vocal leader.  Though he has gotten heated at times.  He is vocal enough.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 02:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: OK, this is starting to get silly. If you have a roster that needs upgraded in several different areas - including QB - then taking a QB who is believed to have franchise type potential is an attempt to improve the team. If Burrow is the pick, then you've hopefully addressed one position and can check it off the list, and then move on to the others. The same would be true if they take Young, for example. He would potentially add a dominant DE that would upgrade the d-line, but then you still have to tackle all the others areas of need. 

If they think Burrow is the right guy to lead this franchise going forward, then they need to take him and work their asses off to reshape this roster into one that can compete, and that would include being active in free agency and filling some of the needs with proven, quality talent. Will they do that? i'm not exactly holding my breath, but we'll see. 

As for Andy, it's just time to move on. I've supported Andy since day 1 but both he and the team just needs a fresh start. Andy certainly gets too much of the blame at times and he sure as hell isn't the only issue with this team, but having said that...he isn't blameless either. After 9 years, similar to Marvin after 16, the end results just aren't there. I don't see any reason to keep kicking the can down the road. 

Have I said NOT to take a QB?  Did my post say that Bungling Burrow will be the reason for our failures?  No.

I said that Burrow will not lead us to success.  You have even said that Burrow hasn't played a down of NFL football, yet you think his selection makes us better?  That is what is silly.

If we do take Burrow, which we will.  Then I expect a post season appearance next year.  Why?  Simply because the only reason we have been bad the past few years according to some is because of our QB.  Our Line is fine, the defense is fine, the Run game is fine.  So the only missing piece is the QB. 

Not just any QB, but a QB that won the Heisman... a QB that is "special", has "intangibles" and is a "competitor".

I was hoping that Taylor would have the sense to see that the issues on this team started to erode when some players left and no replacement was made to those players.  Whitworth leaving should have impacted the OLine, and the Bengals did try to replace him with 2 guys that were "special"....  however letting Zeitler go and keeping Kirkpatrick was a silly move.  Especially before having Whitworth replaced.

Now the OLine is still not fixed and we will have a big ? at QB, hoping and praying that he is half as good as the hype claims him to be.  We keep losing quality players (except posters on this board don't see Dalton as quality) before fixing the holes made by the vacated spots before them.

So, instead of the optimism, let's look at this realistically.  Burrow isn't even half as good as the hype and is more like Sam Bradford than Peyton Manning.  Worse he is Akili Smith 2.0.  We still don't have the OLine fixed since, Williams is just one guy and we have 4 out of 5 holes to fill.  What does that do to our franchise?  Yep, it sets us back... as in repeating of the 90s back.

[Catmandude123]

(12-23-2019, 10:21 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: And praise, that's the way it's always been and that's the way it will always be.

And I think most do understand the very long list of problems with this team from top to bottom. It's just that Dalton is the most visible target. I fully believe that had the right buttons been pushed AD could have had much more success here, same with CP9. But MB refuses to push those buttons and/or doesn't know how and refuses to let somebody who does run the show.

Put Dalton on the 88 Bengals with that Oline and we're winning some games. He could have been J. McMahon on the 85 Bears. He could win with the 19 niners, name a Patriots team ? 

The problem comes in because we aren't ever going to build one of those type teams or have the coaching under MB ! And Dalton isn't a QB who can take a team on his back and rise above it.

Blah blah blah. we know it's not Daltons fault  because_______ ! Fill in the blank. I would bet you Dalton Gangers watch the same movies over and over hoping the end will be different. Finally at last the Dalton story is about to end. The reruns were killing the rest of us.

[Catmandude123]

(12-23-2019, 02:57 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Have I said NOT to take a QB?  Did my post say that Bungling Burrow will be the reason for our failures?  No.

I said that Burrow will not lead us to success.  You have even said that Burrow hasn't played a down of NFL football, yet you think his selection makes us better?  That is what is silly.

If we do take Burrow, which we will.  Then I expect a post season appearance next year.  Why?  Simply because the only reason we have been bad the past few years according to some is because of our QB.  Our Line is fine, the defense is fine, the Run game is fine.  So the only missing piece is the QB. 

Not just any QB, but a QB that won the Heisman... a QB that is "special", has "intangibles" and is a "competitor".

I was hoping that Taylor would have the sense to see that the issues on this team started to erode when some players left and no replacement was made to those players.  Whitworth leaving should have impacted the OLine, and the Bengals did try to replace him with 2 guys that were "special"....  however letting Zeitler go and keeping Kirkpatrick was a silly move.  Especially before having Whitworth replaced.

Now the OLine is still not fixed and we will have a big ? at QB, hoping and praying that he is half as good as the hype claims him to be.  We keep losing quality players (except posters on this board don't see Dalton as quality) before fixing the holes made by the vacated spots before them.

So, instead of the optimism, let's look at this realistically.  Burrow isn't even half as good as the hype and is more like Sam Bradford than Peyton Manning.  Worse he is Akili Smith 2.0.  We still don't have the OLine fixed since, Williams is just one guy and we have 4 out of 5 holes to fill.  What does that do to our franchise?  Yep, it sets us back... as in repeating of the 90s back.

You must be from the future to know exactly how Burrow will turn out. 

[Catmandude123]

(12-23-2019, 02:22 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What "intangibles" are you speaking of?  This is exactly what I am talking about.  Dalton has everything that Burrow has and more, he actually has experience.  "Burrow's a competitor",  "Burrow can make all the throws", "Burrow can read the defenses"... all of these are just buzz words that have NO meaning at this point.

I get the age thing... even though Rivers, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ryan, Stafford, Manning, Flacco and Wilson are all above 30 QBs.... I am sure I missed one or two.  Would you be willing to rebuild around an "aging" Wilson or Brees?

I would be willing to wager he doesn't get balls batted down like your boy Andy does. Rebuilding with a high payed QB won't work. Spending all your money on a QB keeps a team with many holes from signing other needed players. Signing Burrow and spending Andy's 17 mil on replacement players is a win -win situation.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: You must be from the future to know exactly how Burrow will turn out. 

No need.

Good businesses run the way they do because they always have a replacement lined up for departing personnel.  They don't let the good employee leave without having someone ready and willing to take their place.  If the person that is the next man up isn't cutting it, you don't release other people while you still look for a replacement for the departed person.

When Whitworth left, we tried to replace him with OG or Fisher...  one would take over for Whit and the other would take over for Smith.  Not a bad plan, except those 2 flamed out and busted on us, it happens.  So while looking for better OT players, we let Zeitler go, then we let Bodine go.  So before we fixed the OTs spots, we now have a hole at OG and OC.

Same thing with the WRs.  We had Sanu and Jones... we let both go at the same time.  We didn't replace them and Ross and Boyd haven't done what those to did.  Boyd yes, Ross no. 

So now we have holes at OT (possibly both), both OG spots, we need another WR even if we keep Green and if we don't then we definitely need a WR.  We are replacing our QB with someone that in only 1 season, produced at a high level on an already decent LSU team.  While having a lot of holes to fix and hoping that 3rd, 4th and 5th rounders will be good enough to fix them.

We might get lucky and hit on every draft pick, but odds are we won't.

So, no, I am not from the future.  I just know how poorly this organization is ran and don't see Burrow succeeding here.

[RunKijanaRun]

(12-23-2019, 02:57 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Have I said NOT to take a QB?  Did my post say that Bungling Burrow will be the reason for our failures?  No.

I said that Burrow will not lead us to success.  You have even said that Burrow hasn't played a down of NFL football, yet you think his selection makes us better?  That is what is silly.

If we do take Burrow, which we will.  Then I expect a post season appearance next year.  Why?  Simply because the only reason we have been bad the past few years according to some is because of our QB.  Our Line is fine, the defense is fine, the Run game is fine.  So the only missing piece is the QB. 

Not just any QB, but a QB that won the Heisman... a QB that is "special", has "intangibles" and is a "competitor".

I was hoping that Taylor would have the sense to see that the issues on this team started to erode when some players left and no replacement was made to those players.  Whitworth leaving should have impacted the OLine, and the Bengals did try to replace him with 2 guys that were "special"....  however letting Zeitler go and keeping Kirkpatrick was a silly move.  Especially before having Whitworth replaced.

Now the OLine is still not fixed and we will have a big ? at QB, hoping and praying that he is half as good as the hype claims him to be.  We keep losing quality players (except posters on this board don't see Dalton as quality) before fixing the holes made by the vacated spots before them.

So, instead of the optimism, let's look at this realistically.  Burrow isn't even half as good as the hype and is more like Sam Bradford than Peyton Manning.  Worse he is Akili Smith 2.0.  We still don't have the OLine fixed since, Williams is just one guy and we have 4 out of 5 holes to fill.  What does that do to our franchise?  Yep, it sets us back... as in repeating of the 90s back.

Damn. My ignore list now has 2 members. You and Toasty. Congrats. You're in elite company.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 03:13 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I would be willing to wager he doesn't get balls batted down like your boy Andy does. Rebuilding with a high payed QB won't work. Spending all your money on a QB keeps a team with many holes from signing other needed players. Signing Burrow and spending Andy's 17 mil on replacement players is a win -win situation.

So who do we sign?

You know we won't sign anyone worthwhile.

I know a lot of posters want Conklin and PFF even calls him "above average", but the problem is that Conklin isn't all that great, the Titans didn't use their extension on him, so he isn't a top tier talent worth a huge contract.  Even if he is good, some other team will pay more for him.  We aren't the ONLY team looking for OTs, so Conklin won't be coming here.

[Bengalholic]

(12-23-2019, 02:57 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Have I said NOT to take a QB?  Did my post say that Bungling Burrow will be the reason for our failures?  No.

I said that Burrow will not lead us to success.  You have even said that Burrow hasn't played a down of NFL football, yet you think his selection makes us better?  That is what is silly.

Every draft prospect is taken without having played a down in the NFL.  

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 03:22 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: Damn. My ignore list now has 2 members. You and Toasty. Congrats. You're in elite company.

Fine... it isn't like you have anything worthwhile to say either.  Your analysis are repetitious and boring.  It is like reading Skip Bayless.