Veteran Andy > Rookie Joe Burrow

[2MinutesHate]

(01-05-2020, 12:16 PM)Fullrock Wrote: You can't pay $17 million to a backup/mentor. Kitna was making peanuts compared to Dalton at the time. Keeping Dalton and his 17 mil salary when you can use that money to upgrade another much needed position makes little sense. I do think Dalton has some trade value, though it's not the 2nd round pick people like to think it is. I think they could get a 4th round pick for him and use it to draft a WR in this unbelievably deep WR draft class.

I don't believe that they would keep him at that cost.  However, they could cut him and then resign him after he clears waivers.  No one is going to waste a draft pick on him when they know the Bengals won't keep him at that price, especially with all the FA QB's hitting the market.  I'd resign him as a backup/transitional QB for 2020.  Maybe if he plays for real cheap, he could start in Tampa or Miami.

[Luvnit2]

(01-05-2020, 01:31 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Half of the teams in the playoffs this year have QBs with three or less years of starting experience. If Burrow is like any of them we may be able to turn the team around. Just what about that statement gets under your skin? Is it because I don't believe that the answer to our problems is not the same as yours? He may not be the answer in 2020 but he has out preformed every one of those QBs in his senior year of college. " doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results is the definition of insanity."

Is the goal to get to the playoffs in 2020 or just compete?

Let's see how many of these guys win playoff games as many hated on AD for getting there, but then losing (Allen for example blew a 16 point lead and lost with stellar defense. 1st round pick Allen BTW. Tannehill is a veteran many wrote off and just beat Pats and Brady.

Ravens have a top  defense, Bengals have  bottom 5 defense.

I am rooting for Burrow and time for a change, but the haters like you talk 2 or 3 years when discussing the rookie, but wanted AD to win it all with same pieces or a lot of missing (injured piecesces) which makes no sense to me.

At least be consistent, either Joe burrow is better than a vet QB like Dalton in year #1 or he is not. He is good enough to get us back to the playoffs or not. Those facts will be determined in 2020. As for 2021 and beyond, I sure as hell hope the #1 overall pick in 2019 is a better NFL QB than a 2nd round pick long term, if not we screwed up big time drafting him.

[BengalsRocker]

(01-05-2020, 12:24 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: While I doubt you will find many if any that refute that, there were plenty of other contributing factors to his poor season. By no means is that meant to defend him or absolve him of his issues, poor play, mistakes, or anything like that. Dalton is still a good QB. We should be able to find a trade partner and gain an additional draft pick while dumping his salary.

I understand that a lot of people can only focus on anything negative that relates to Dalton. I also understand that if you don't spew hate in his direction at every given opportunity, then you get labeled one of these ridiculous Ganger, Army, or whatever other childish name that would be more expected on a playground than adult conversation.

Whether or not he's an upgrade Year 1, Burrow could and should be an upgrade overall. It is time to grab our QB of the future and move forward in that direction. Burrow could be special and you just don't pass on that. However, for all of the good and the hope that Burrow brings doesn't mean everyone has to shit on Dalton. Whether people like it or not, he was a good QB. He did a lot of good for the team and he was a big part of helping turn this franchise into something better than a punchline. I understand this season was horrible and Dalton played his part in that, but there's no reason to throw out everything positive he's done for the team just because he's on his way out.

Well said.

Dalton has shown nothing but class to not only the fans but this orginization.

There's no reason to dump on him even if it's time to part ways.

If he could be used in the draft to maneuver their way to one of the best WRs to pair with Burrow it would be outstanding.

Using Dalton + picks to get offensive weapons higher in the draft can help them decide what to do with Green.

[Housh]

(01-04-2020, 02:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: In wins... It's an upgrade in wins. Wins are a team stat.

You are more than welcome to your own opinion. If you think he steps in and is right away an upgrade then that's fine.

In my opinion, and experience, that's some seriously wishful thinking. 

Burrow is a better quarterback than Dalton. I know that can’t be said as a matter of fact but Id bet a substantial amount of money Burrow wins ROY.

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2020, 07:20 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Given Dalton's performance this year, I would bet money on a couple of things:

1.  Burrow throws more TDs
2.  Burrow throws fewer interceptions
3.  Burrow throws for more yards
4.  Burrow leads the team to more wins
5.  Burrow has a higher rating

Than a combined Dalton/Finley

And there is no way to prove if you would be right or wrong because we can't start both Dalton and Burrow next year.

There is no way we start next year with the same O-line and WRs that Dalton/Finley had this year.

[grampahol]

(01-04-2020, 02:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: In wins... It's an upgrade in wins. Wins are a team stat.

You are more than welcome to your own opinion. If you think he steps in and is right away an upgrade then that's fine.

In my opinion, and experience, that's some seriously wishful thinking. 

Wins indeed are a team endeavour, not just on the QB or any other position. If someone wants to credit only Andy for the 2 wins they completely ignore every other player on the team and the same applies to losses. By using the logic of all wins and losses are on the QB it can be flipped to say that all wins and losses are on the kicker instead or safety or defensive tackle or..... If Burrow is drafted by this team AND they draft or sign great FAs and they lose 16 games next year under him and Andy is gone then who gets the blame? Certainly not Burrow as he can do no wrong under this scenario, huh? 

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Now i'm going to put perspective on the other side. in 13 games last year it was a 1 possession deficit or better going into the 4th quarter. Only games we were slaughtered were 49ers and Raven both 1 seeds in the playoffs Without our number 1 WR and Number 1 or 2 LT for most of the season. Andy's weaknesses are Joe Burrow's strengths Arm strength Height Physical stature Accuracy.

[Catmandude123]

(01-05-2020, 01:09 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Is the goal to get to the playoffs in 2020 or just compete?

Let's see how many of these guys win playoff games as many hated on AD for getting there, but then losing (Allen for example blew a 16 point lead and lost with stellar defense. 1st round pick Allen BTW. Tannehill is a veteran many wrote off and just beat Pats and Brady.

Ravens have a top  defense, Bengals have  bottom 5 defense.

I am rooting for Burrow and time for a change, but the haters like you talk 2 or 3 years when discussing the rookie, but wanted AD to win it all with same pieces or a lot of missing (injured piecesces) which makes no sense to me.

At least be consistent, either Joe burrow is better than a vet QB like Dalton in year #1 or he is not. He is good enough to get us back to the playoffs or not. Those facts will be determined in 2020. As for 2021 and beyond, I sure as hell hope the #1 overall pick in 2019 is a better NFL QB than a 2nd round pick long term, if not we screwed up big time drafting him.

Yes Allen lost but Watson won. All six can't be in the SB. Duh. What's your point. If Burrow is drafted would the team he inherits be better or worse than 2011 team. You want to give credit to Dalton for five year PO run but blame the other 52 because he has not made the playoffs in four straight years. Passing on Burrow is not going to help the team in the future. If they take the 17.5 million they save from cutting Andy and spend it in other areas of need the team will be more successful. I believe the team wins more than the two Andy won if they do nothing more than sign scrub FAs. These are just my opinions please don't take me as a hater because mine differ from yours.

[Catmandude123]

(01-05-2020, 01:09 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: .

I am rooting for Burrow and time for a change, but the haters like you talk 2 or 3 years when discussing the rookie, but wanted AD to win it all with same pieces or a lot of missing (injured piecesces) which makes no sense to me.

At least be consistent, either Joe burrow is better than a vet QB like Dalton in year #1 or he is not.

Dude , where have you been the last nine years? Have you not seen that Dalton can't win the big games? You act like he is Finley . He has been given more than enough time to succeed. Its not really important about where we end up in 2020 as it is that we refuse to be where we have been the last four years.

[Wes Mantooth]

Here are the #1 picks going back to Peyton Manning and their QB Rating for year 1:

Peyton Manning - 71.2
Tim Couch - 73.2
Michael Vick - 62.7
David Carr - 62.8
Carson Palmer - DNP (77.3 in year 2)
Eli Manning - 55.4
Alex Smith - 40.8
Jamarcus Russell - 55.9
Matt Stafford - 61.0
Sam Bradford - 76.5
Cam Newton - 84.5
Andrew Luck - 76.5
Jameis Winston - 84.2
Jared Goff - 63.6
Baker Mayfield - 93.7
Kyler Murray - 87.4

And here Dalton's ratings the last 5 years, followed by career:

2015 - 106.2
2016 - 91.8
2017 - 86.6
2018 - 89.6
2019 - 78.4
Career - 87.7

As bad as last year was, even that rating is better than 12 of the 16. And while many consider him now to be only as good as 2019 I do not. To each their own I guess.

I do not think Andy just fell off a cliff in ability. He's not coming off some career changing injury like rotator cuff or ACL. He's not yet old in QB years. I simply believe the most recent numbers are the result of his talent surrounding him. I consider last year as much as anomaly as 2015. (Great talent vs Terrible talent)

I believe he still is what his career number says he is... a mid 80's QB rating type of a guy. That's why I have always, and still do, consider him to fall in the clusterfrack of 10-20. Can be very good but rarely great, can be bad but rarely terrible...

If you don't agree with that then that's ok. And I know rating is not the end all be all. But it just helps explains my position.

I think if Joe Burrow has a very, very good rookie season it will look a lot like a veteran Andy's typical veteran year. I think it will take an absolute great rookie season to eclispe a typical veteran year. And I don't that's likely without a sedious influx of surrounding talent.

We'll see...

[samhain]

(01-05-2020, 02:22 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Here are the #1 picks going back to Peyton Manning and their QB Rating for year 1:

Peyton Manning - 71.2
Tim Couch - 73.2
Michael Vick - 62.7
David Carr - 62.8
Carson Palmer - DNP (77.3 in year 2)
Eli Manning - 55.4
Alex Smith - 40.8
Jamarcus Russell - 55.9
Matt Stafford - 61.0
Sam Bradford - 76.5
Cam Newton - 84.5
Andrew Luck - 76.5
Jameis Winston - 84.2
Jared Goff - 63.6
Baker Mayfield - 93.7
Kyler Murray - 87.4

And here Dalton's ratings the last 5 years, followed by career:

2015 - 106.2
2016 - 91.8
2017 - 86.6
2018 - 89.6
2019 - 78.4
Career - 87.7

As bad as last year was, even that rating is better than 12 of the 16.  And while many consider him now to be only as good as 2019 I do not. To each their own I guess.

I do not think Andy just fell off a cliff in ability. He's not coming off some career changing injury like rotator cuff or ACL. He's not yet old in QB years. I simply believe the most recent numbers are the result of his talent surrounding him. I consider last year as much as anomaly as 2015. (Great talent vs Terrible talent)

I believe he still is what his career number says he is... a mid 80's QB rating type of a guy. That's why I have always, and still do, consider him to fall in the clusterfrack of 10-20. Can be very good but rarely great, can be bad but rarely terrible...

If you don't agree with that then that's ok. And I know rating is not the end all be all. But it just helps explains my position.

I think if Joe Burrow has a very, very good rookie season it will look a lot like a veteran Andy's typical veteran year. I think it will take an absolute great rookie season to eclispe a typical veteran year. And I don't that's likely without a sedious influx of surrounding talent.

We'll see...

I'm not an Andy defender, but he's had some pretty shitty offensive coordinators since Hue left, as well.  Zampese was a low point.  Lazor was an improvement, but still nothing great.  He also operated without any real run game until Mixon came alive last year.  It wasn't even great in 2015.  

[Wes Mantooth]

(01-05-2020, 02:09 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: 1.) Passing on Burrow is not going to help the team in the future. 2.) If they take the 17.5 million they save from cutting Andy and spend it in other areas of need the team will be more successful. 

1.) Has anyone called for that? Passing on Burrow. I certainly wasn't and haven't seen anyone else either. I'm not sure who this in response to.
 
2.) Same thing as above. This thread and discussion is not about starting Andy, keeping Andy, or anything of the sort. It's simply about whether Burrow is an immediate upgrade.

I often see posts about why we'll improve in 2020 and many start with basically "We have Burrow..." That is what is being questioned or examined.

"I think we will be better in 2020 because...."

-Our O-Line will be better. (I would agree)
-Our defense will improve. (I agree it certainly can't be worse)
-We have had a full year for Taylor to impliment his plan. (I agree)
-We will better utilize our running game (I agree)
-Our WR corp, with or without AJ, will be improved. (I agree)

-We have Joe Burrow. ( I do not agree. I think its both premature and wishful thinking to consider this an immediate upgrade in year 1)

Thats the crux of the argument. Many lead off with the Burrow statement as to why we will be improved in 2020. That's what I'm questioning. None of this other stuff...

I really believe some either don't read what's written, or are so sensitive to anything thats not bublegum and rainbows that they manage to completely miss the actual topic at hand.

Nowhere did Luvintz call not draft Burrow. And neither did anyone else. Who exactly are you debating?

[Catmandude123]

(01-05-2020, 02:54 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) Has anyone called for that? Passing on Burrow. I certainly wasn't and haven't seen anyone else either. I'm not sure who this in response to.
 
2.) Same thing as above. This thread and discussion is not about starting Andy, keeping Andy, or anything of the sort. It's simply about whether Burrow is an immediate upgrade.

I often see posts about why we'll improve in 2020 and many start with basically "We have Burrow..." That is what is being questioned or examined.

"I think we will be better in 2020 because...."

-Our O-Line will be better. (I would agree)
-Our defense will improve. (I agree it certainly can't be worse)
-We have had a full year for Taylor to impliment his plan. (I agree)
-We will better utilize our running game (I agree)
-Our WR corp, with or without AJ, will be improved. (I agree)

-We have Joe Burrow. ( I do not agree. I think its both premature and wishful thinking to consider this an immediate upgrade in year 1)

Thats the crux of the argument. Many lead off with the Burrow statement as to why we will be improved in 2020. That's what I'm questioning. None of this other stuff...

I really believe some either don't read what's written, or are so sensitive to anything thats not bublegum and rainbows that they manage to completely miss the actual topic at hand.

Nowhere did Luvintz call not draft Burrow. And neither did anyone else. Who exactly are you debating?

Dude I was having a conversation that doesn't include your inane supposition. It's allowed . If you don't like my posts block me but you have no control over what I post ,or are you a moderator? There are intangibles that you have to consider when you make comparisons . I believe you just want to play both ends against the middle to make your post seem relevant.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-05-2020, 12:16 PM)Fullrock Wrote: You can't pay $17 million to a backup/mentor. Kitna was making peanuts compared to Dalton at the time. Keeping Dalton and his 17 mil salary when you can use that money to upgrade another much needed position makes little sense. I do think Dalton has some trade value, though it's not the 2nd round pick people like to think it is. I think they could get a 4th round pick for him and use it to draft a WR in this unbelievably deep WR draft class.

I’d say at least a 3rd for Dalton. Worse QB’s like Bradford have brought back more in recent years. Granted that was a move out of desperation, but Dalton can be a solid game manager type for the right team. Who that would be is the problem...

It’s feeling like the Bucs moving on from Winston would be our best bet.

[BengalYankee]

(01-04-2020, 02:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: In wins... It's an upgrade in wins. Wins are a team stat.

You are more than welcome to your own opinion. If you think he steps in and is right away an upgrade then that's fine.

In my opinion, and experience, that's some seriously wishful thinking. 

Same team 2018 Ravens

Joe Flacco 4-5 

Lamar Jackson 6-1

Lamar Jackson >>> Joe Flacco

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(01-04-2020, 04:42 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Oh... it's Burrow with Jonah back and Green back and the way the D played the 2nd half and the O line blocked. 

Joe Burrow is Mike Brown's wet dream come true. He drafts him, and doesn't have to do anything else. And all the Joe Burrow fan boys will fill the stadium with hope as we win 3 or 4 games.

The hope with Burrow is that it's the start of a journey to a Super Bowl.

Not in 2020 but 2020 would be a necessary step along the path.

The question is do you want to be there at the beginning of the journey?
We don't know where that path leads us, but that's part of the fun. Last few years we've been retreading familiar paths where we've largely known where the path would take us. Now we go in a new direction and we don't know where that takes us.

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 01:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And there is no way to prove if you would be right or wrong because we can't start both Dalton and Burrow next year.

There is no way we start next year with the same O-line and WRs that Dalton/Finley had this year.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assert that, regardless of the supporting staff, Burrow doesn't do worse than 32nd out of 32 qualifying QBs next year. 

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(01-05-2020, 02:22 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Here are the #1 picks going back to Peyton Manning and their QB Rating for year 1:

Peyton Manning - 71.2
Tim Couch - 73.2
Michael Vick - 62.7
David Carr - 62.8
Carson Palmer - DNP (77.3 in year 2)
Eli Manning - 55.4
Alex Smith - 40.8
Jamarcus Russell - 55.9
Matt Stafford - 61.0
Sam Bradford - 76.5
Cam Newton - 84.5
Andrew Luck - 76.5
Jameis Winston - 84.2
Jared Goff - 63.6
Baker Mayfield - 93.7
Kyler Murray - 87.4

And here Dalton's ratings the last 5 years, followed by career:

2015 - 106.2
2016 - 91.8
2017 - 86.6
2018 - 89.6
2019 - 78.4
Career - 87.7

As bad as last year was, even that rating is better than 12 of the 16.  And while many consider him now to be only as good as 2019 I do not. To each their own I guess.

I do not think Andy just fell off a cliff in ability. He's not coming off some career changing injury like rotator cuff or ACL. He's not yet old in QB years. I simply believe the most recent numbers are the result of his talent surrounding him. I consider last year as much as anomaly as 2015. (Great talent vs Terrible talent)

I believe he still is what his career number says he is... a mid 80's QB rating type of a guy. That's why I have always, and still do, consider him to fall in the clusterfrack of 10-20. Can be very good but rarely great, can be bad but rarely terrible...

If you don't agree with that then that's ok. And I know rating is not the end all be all. But it just helps explains my position.

I think if Joe Burrow has a very, very good rookie season it will look a lot like a veteran Andy's typical veteran year. I think it will take an absolute great rookie season to eclispe a typical veteran year. And I don't that's likely without a sedious influx of surrounding talent.

We'll see...

The most recent 2 were respectable and he comes in more pro ready than either of previous 2. You could also Add in Mahomes as a success. Even though he sat first season. Add to the fact He beasted week 17. He was better than Alex year 1 Reid just chose to sit him.

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 02:22 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Here are the #1 picks going back to Peyton Manning and their QB Rating for year 1:

Peyton Manning - 71.2
Tim Couch - 73.2
Michael Vick - 62.7
David Carr - 62.8
Carson Palmer - DNP (77.3 in year 2)
Eli Manning - 55.4
Alex Smith - 40.8
Jamarcus Russell - 55.9
Matt Stafford - 61.0
Sam Bradford - 76.5
Cam Newton - 84.5
Andrew Luck - 76.5
Jameis Winston - 84.2
Jared Goff - 63.6
Baker Mayfield - 93.7
Kyler Murray - 87.4

And here Dalton's ratings the last 5 years, followed by career:

2015 - 106.2
2016 - 91.8
2017 - 86.6
2018 - 89.6
2019 - 78.4
Career - 87.7

As bad as last year was, even that rating is better than 12 of the 16.  And while many consider him now to be only as good as 2019 I do not. To each their own I guess.

I do not think Andy just fell off a cliff in ability. He's not coming off some career changing injury like rotator cuff or ACL. He's not yet old in QB years. I simply believe the most recent numbers are the result of his talent surrounding him. I consider last year as much as anomaly as 2015. (Great talent vs Terrible talent)

I believe he still is what his career number says he is... a mid 80's QB rating type of a guy. That's why I have always, and still do, consider him to fall in the clusterfrack of 10-20. Can be very good but rarely great, can be bad but rarely terrible...

If you don't agree with that then that's ok. And I know rating is not the end all be all. But it just helps explains my position.

I think if Joe Burrow has a very, very good rookie season it will look a lot like a veteran Andy's typical veteran year. I think it will take an absolute great rookie season to eclispe a typical veteran year. And I don't that's likely without a sedious influx of surrounding talent.

We'll see...

And outside of the outlier Jared Goff can you tell me what trend we are seeing? 4 of the last 6 are better  and Luck was less than 2 points worse while getting 11 wins for a team that had 2 the year prior. I'll take 11 wins next year, would you?

[Luvnit2]

(01-05-2020, 04:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and assert that, regardless of the supporting staff, Burrow doesn't do worse than 32nd out of 32 qualifying QBs next year. 

Again I ask, what is your goal? Playoffs or 5 or 6 wins?

Juts because he is better stats than AD in 2020 will not mean the team issues causing losses is fixed. To get us in the playoffs, he will need to be a top 10 QB in year 1 in my opinion. Can he carry a team to wins as a rookie?

Will he be Bfine?

I like and want Burrow, but let's mot throw unrealistic expecatations on a rookie QB. Let's be honest, he may be a tad better in 2020 than Dalton was (most likely), but not capable of carrying the team quite yet.