Veteran Andy > Rookie Joe Burrow

[Catmandude123]

(01-05-2020, 03:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’d say at least a 3rd for Dalton. Worse QB’s like Bradford have brought back more in recent years. Granted that was a move out of desperation, but Dalton can be a solid game manager type for the right team. Who that would be is the problem...

It’s feeling like the Bucs moving on from Winston would be our best bet.

I hope Marvin gets the Dallas job( Rooney rules say they have to at least interview a minority) and hires Andy to play behind their top o-line. I guess he will break records then. 

[Wes Mantooth]

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‐--------------------------

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[Wes Mantooth]

(01-05-2020, 04:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Luck was less than 2 points worse while getting 11 wins for a team that had 2 the year prior. I'll take 11 wins next year, would you?

Well, sure I would. Although I think it's highly unlikely I've never said it was impossible.

Lets look at that Colts team and Luck just for discussion's sake. What allowed them to go from a 2 to an 11 win team?

-They hired a new GM
-They hired a new head coach
-They hired a new OC
-They hired a new DC
-Their defense improved
-Their run game improved
-They added TY Hilton and Dwayne Allen as immediate starters.

Who did Andrew Luck replace? Was he an upgrade? Was the person he replaced as good as Dalton?

-The Colts QB(s) the year prior" Curtis Painter/Dan Orlavsky/Kerry Collins

So yes, Luck was a clear uograde. Those QBs not only are not NFL starters, they were all out if the league in short order.

So add improved QB to that huge list to possible reasons for the turnaround....

Can we turn it around? Maybe? Will we have potential reasons for improvement? I'm sure we will?  Is Burrow a clear upgrade over Dalton from day 1, as Luck was to Painter? I'm not so sure.

Look believe whatever you want. You've made it clear you don't like Andy. You've gone as far as to say he's selfish. I get it. I'm not telling you not jump on the Burrow train and be as excited as we all are.

I just don't think it's that crazy to say that we may not see an upgrade at the position until year 2. Dalton is a decent QB in my mind, and decent is usually a rookie's ceiling.

Agree to disagree...

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 06:13 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Well, sure I would. Although I think it's highly unlikely I've never said it was impossible.

Lets look at that Colts team and Luck just for discussion's sake. What allowed them to go from a 2 to an 11 win team?

-They hired a new GM
-They hired a new head coach
-They hired a new OC
-They hired a new DC
-Their defense improved
-Their run game improved
-They added TY Hilton and Dwayne Allen as immediate starters.

Who did Andrew Luck replace? Was he an upgrade? Was the person he replaced as good as Dalton?

-The Colts QB(s) the year prior" Curtis Painter/Dan Orlavsky/Kerry Collins

So yes, Luck was a clear uograde. Those QBs not only are not NFL starters, they were all out if the league in short order.

So add improved QB to that huge list to possible reasons for the turnaround....

Can we turn it around? Maybe? Will we have potential reasons for improvement? I'm sure we will?  Is Burrow a clear upgrade over Dalton from day 1, as Luck was to Painter? I'm not so sure.

Look believe whatever you want. You've made it clear you don't like Andy. You've gone as far as to say he's selfish. I get it. I'm not telling you not jump on the Burrow train and be as excited as we all are.

I just don't think it's that crazy to say that we may not see an upgrade at the position until year 2. Dalton is a decent QB in my mind, and decent is usually a rookie's ceiling.

Agree to disagree...

Funny how you state Luck was a clear upgrade over the QB that did not finish dead last in passer rating of those that qualified, but question if Burrow can be an upgrade for a QB that did finish dead last.

Equally funny you point to all those changes on the coaching staff as to why he won more games. What made the colts think they could be an improvement over what they had in place?

Why did you leave out the part of my response that showed 4 of the last 1OA had a better rating than Andy did last year?

Sure, we can agree to disagree/ 

[Luvnit2]

(01-05-2020, 06:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Funny how you state Luck was a clear upgrade over the QB that did not finish dead last in passer rating of those that qualified, but question if Burrow can be an upgrade for a QB that did finish dead last.

Equally funny you point to all those changes on the coaching staff as to why he won more games. What made the colts think they could be an improvement over what they had in place?

Why did you leave out the part of my response that showed 4 of the last 1OA had a better rating than Andy did last year?

Sure, we can agree to disagree/ 

Simply because you cherry picked a vets career by showing his worst year. Maybe that is why.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-05-2020, 07:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Simply because you cherry picked a vets career by showing his worst year. Maybe that is why.

It was his most recent season though, not just a random year. The argument was that Burrow wouldn’t be an upgrade over what Dalton did last year. That seems unlikely.

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 07:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Simply because you cherry picked a vets career by showing his worst year. Maybe that is why.

Let me quess. I should have went with 2015. 

Most likely better than going with his most recent when discussing if rookie Burrow can be better than vet Andy.

[*Synric*]

It's a poor hypothetical by the OP trying to predict and compare a rookie's first season that hasn't happened yet to a veterans entire career.

[Wes Mantooth]

(01-05-2020, 07:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The argument was that Burrow wouldn’t be an upgrade over what Dalton did last year. That seems unlikely.

That was not at all the argument and you know it. I've said numerous times that he may very well have better numbers in 2020 than Dalton in 2019. In fact, I think it's likely he will.

The argument is simple: 2020 Dalton (Veteran) is greater or equal to 2020 Burrow (Rookie)

I think the ceiling for Burrow in a good to great rookie season is about that of a middle range veteran, which is what I believe Dalton to be.

Some of you now think Dalton is the 36th, or 30-whatever, best option as a starter moving forward because that's what his most recent stats say. I disagree.

I think he's of the same skill he has been for years, which is average, but still well above where you're placing him.

Whatever. I'm done trying to re-explain simple points that continue to get twisted and rearranged.

If you, or anyone else, truly believes Dalton is now the 36th best starting option in this league then some of your a more delutional than I thought.

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2020, 07:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The argument was that Burrow wouldn’t be an upgrade over what Dalton did last year. That seems unlikely.

If Burrows plays with the same O-line and WRs then it is very likely he would not be an upgrade over Dalton.

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2020, 07:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let me quess. I should have went with 2015. 

Nope.  Career.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-05-2020, 07:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If Burrows plays with the same O-line and WRs then it is very likely he would not be an upgrade over Dalton.

Not it’s not. And the kid’s name is Burrow. No s.

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 07:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Nope.  Career.

Why?

We're not handing out lifetime achievement awards. 

Wouldn't it be better to consider his last couple of years?

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 07:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If Burrows plays with the same O-line and WRs then it is very likely he would not be an upgrade over Dalton.

You're just guessing, but I can guarantee you he would not do worse than 32 of 32. 

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 07:52 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: That was not at all the argument and you know it. I've said numerous times that he may very well have better numbers in 2020 than Dalton in 2019. In fact, I think it's likely he will.

The argument is simple: 2020 Dalton (Veteran) is greater or equal to 2020 Burrow (Rookie)

I think the ceiling for Burrow in a good to great rookie season is about that of a middle range veteran, which is what I believe Dalton to be.

Some of you now think Dalton is the 36th, or 30-whatever, best option as a starter moving forward because that's what his most recent stats say. I disagree.

I think he's of the same skill he has been for years, which is average, but still well above where you're placing him.

Whatever. I'm done trying to re-explain simple points that continue to get twisted and rearranged.

If you, or anyone else, truly believes Dalton is now the 36th best starting option in this league then some of your a more delutional than I thought.

We're not placing him there; the NFL is. Folks saying the QB that has finished 26th of 32 and 32nd of 32 the last 2 years and are asserting he's middle range are. And dare I say...delusional 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-05-2020, 08:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We're not placing him there; the NFL is. Folks saying the QB that has finished 26th of 32 and 32nd of 32 the last 2 years and are asserting he's middle range are. And dare I say...delusional 

Yeah, we’re talking about the Andy that got benched for a noodle armed 4th rounder, not “MVP” Red Rifle Andy.

Does anyone think Joe Burrow would have been benched for Ryan Finley?

[Shake n Blake]

(01-05-2020, 08:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We're not placing him there; the NFL is. Folks saying the QB that has finished 26th of 32 and 32nd of 32 the last 2 years and are asserting he's middle range are. And dare I say...delusional 

So after 2015, you thought Dalton was the 2nd best QB in the NFL?

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 08:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So after 2015, you thought Dalton was the 2nd best QB in the NFL?

No. He didn't finish the season.  But that's where he was rated

But he was better than he is 4 years later. 

[Catmandude123]

(01-05-2020, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why?

We're not handing out lifetime achievement awards. 

Wouldn't it be better to consider his last couple of years?

Because it won't fit his theory that because one great season five years ago is the standard the new QB should be held to. He wants you to believe the team has just as much upside with an aging QB that every team has a game plan to stop as a promising young record setting rookie. The Dalton rides again even as they ride off into the sunset.

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2020, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why?

We're not handing out lifetime achievement awards. 

Wouldn't it be better to consider his last couple of years?

No, because I can provide dozens of examples of QBs who had very bad seasons followed by very good seasons based on the coaching and talent around them.

Ken Anderson had a passer rating of 66.9 in 1980 with 6 tds and 13 ints.  The very next year he led the league in passer rating (98.4) and won the MVP with 29 tds and 10 ints.

In 2005 Brett Favre led the league in interceptions (29) with only 20 tds and had a passer rating of 70.9.  In 2007 he had 14 fewer ints, 8 more tds and a rating of 95.7.