What a franchise QB can do

[TKUHL]

The years we were good we actually threw to setup the run and it worked very well. Having a legit franchise QB can do wonders. Interesting stat.........Out of the 20 all time leading rushing teams guess how many won the SB? Just 1 the 2000 Ravens. Now the reasons can be a mix of a lot of reasons, team had a great line but game managing QB, backup QB or just a bad QB who couldn’t be trusted throwing too much. Or that was the way the offense was built and their strength. I’m a firm believer of passing to setup the run in today’s NFL.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-20-2020, 07:54 PM)TKUHL Wrote: The years we were good we actually threw to setup the run and it worked very well. Having a legit franchise QB can do wonders. Interesting stat.........Out of the 20 all time leading rushing teams guess how many won the SB? Just 1 the 2000 Ravens. Now the reasons can be a mix of a lot of reasons, team had a great line but game managing QB, backup QB or just a bad QB who couldn’t be trusted throwing too much. Or that was the way the offense was built and their strength. I’m a firm believer of passing to setup the run in today’s NFL.

And when you pass bad things can happen if you are not accurate and know where you are going with the ball.

Burrow just doesn't throw interceptions and knows how to feel a pocket so QB fumbles don't happen.

Very, very rare. You just don't pass up the chance to draft Burrow, you just don't.

[Interceptor]

I hope the Heisman Super Bowl curse ends now.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-20-2020, 06:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This would be a better point if Montana didn't win 2 Super Bowls without Rice and Taylor. The 49ers weren't a power house of talent when Montana took over. They were 2-14 the year before Joe took the reigns as starter. Then he led them to 13-3 + ring in his first full season. You wouldn't recognize many of the names on that roster, outside of Ronnie Lott and Dwight Clark (who was a solid player, but no Jerry Rice).

Fair point on the salaries, but we have no idea if Joe would've taken less, ala Brady. Maybe he would have. The Patriots themselves have had no shortage of talent, despite free agency. Some of these names have revolved in and out of that team through the years:

Troy Brown
Lawyer Milloy
Ty Law
Teddy Bruschi
Junior Seau
Darrelle Revis
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Rob Gronkowski
Julian Edelman
Corey Dillon
Richard Seymour
Vince Wilfork
Mike Vrabel
Willie McGinnest
Donte Stallworth
Adalius Thomas
Ben Watson
Ty Warren
Rodney Harrison
Adalius Thomas
Asante Samuel
Deion Branch
Danny Woodhead
Shane Vereen
Andre Carter
LeGarrette Blount
Jamie Collins
Chandler Jones
Jabaal Sheard
James White
Stephon Gilmore
etc etc

Not to mention 2 of the best kickers in NFL history and a defense that was top 5ish for each of their SB runs. The Patriots have had an embarrassment of talent. They just cycle through players, and a lot of these player's contributions are forgotten.

The 1981 49ers had the 2nd ranked defense in scoring
The 1984 49ers had the 1st ranked defense in scoring

I assume Joe wouldn't take less because I assume everyone won't take less. Brady is a rarity in that because he has a supermodel who has made over $400m as his wife.

Between '79 and '92 (when Montana was around), the 49ers had 6 different Hall of Famers and 14 different 1st Team All-Pros. 3 of the HoFers played on defense. Joe Montana was surrounded by an absurd amount of talent that wouldn't be possible in the modern era of football with free agency and salary caps.

The Packers had to keep cycling through players, the 49ers could keep playing with the same top players. The fact you had to list players like Donte Stallworth, Deion Branch, Danny Woodhead, James White, Shane Vereen, etc, as part of the "embarassment of talent" is pretty telling. A lot of mediocre players there, and a lot of guys with 0 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pros there too. Out of Woodhead/White/Vereen, they have a combined 1 season of 500+ rushing yards, and 0 seasons of 550+ rushing yards.

As for the better players: They lost Welker to FA money. They lost Collins because of his impending FA money. They lost C Jones because of his impending FA money. etc... imagine how many rings Brady/Belichick would have if they didn't have a salary cap and could keep all their best players because they could block them from FA.

[Bengalitis]

Took the chiefs a good 50 years to get to the super bowl??


Its been 31 since we been to ours... I hope we go to another one before I go 6 under.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-20-2020, 10:09 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: Took the chiefs a good 50 years to get to the super bowl??


Its been 31 since we been to ours... I hope we go to another one before I go 6 under.

Same here brother, draft Burrow.

[TKUHL]

(01-20-2020, 10:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Same here brother, draft Burrow.

One foot already in! Let just get the QB and roll. If he’s a bust oh well, we’re used to it. Other than Young who would even be in the conversation as the first pick? Simmons? the Tua....hell no. Our pick should already be in. Washington is on the clock.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-20-2020, 11:37 PM)TKUHL Wrote: One foot already in! Let just get the QB and roll. If he’s a bust oh well, we’re used to it. Other than Young who would even be in the conversation as the first pick? Simmons? the Tua....hell no. Our pick should already be in. Washington is on the clock.

Washington has already made their pick as well. It won’t get interesting until #3.

[leonardfan40]

The Bengals get a lot of flack (mostly deserved) for not signing good outside FA’s. That said, the best FA’s don’t want to come here due to the history and reputation of this FO/organization. A truly elite young QB can change that at least a little bit. Players want to play with the best, if Burrow becomes an elite NFL QB here other players will start to look at the team differently. Especially offensive free agents when they think about the opportunities he can give them in game

[Shake n Blake]

(01-20-2020, 08:54 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 1.
The 1981 49ers had the 2nd ranked defense in scoring
The 1984 49ers had the 1st ranked defense in scoring

2. I assume Joe wouldn't take less because I assume everyone won't take less. Brady is a rarity in that because he has a supermodel who has made over $400m as his wife.

3. Between '79 and '92 (when Montana was around), the 49ers had 6 different Hall of Famers and 14 different 1st Team All-Pros. 3 of the HoFers played on defense. Joe Montana was surrounded by an absurd amount of talent that wouldn't be possible in the modern era of football with free agency and salary caps.

4. The Packers had to keep cycling through players, the 49ers could keep playing with the same top players. The fact you had to list players like Donte Stallworth, Deion Branch, Danny Woodhead, James White, Shane Vereen, etc, as part of the "embarassment of talent" is pretty telling. A lot of mediocre players there, and a lot of guys with 0 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pros there too. Out of Woodhead/White/Vereen, they have a combined 1 season of 500+ rushing yards, and 0 seasons of 550+ rushing yards.

5. As for the better players: They lost Welker to FA money. They lost Collins because of his impending FA money. They lost C Jones because of his impending FA money. etc... imagine how many rings Brady/Belichick would have if they didn't have a salary cap and could keep all their best players because they could block them from FA.

1. But they did it without a bunch of "name" players that would've cost them.

2. You shouldn't assume anything when dealing in hypotheticals. Especially when there's evidence that Montana didn't seem to seek the biggest payday even when he had the freedom to do so. The 49ers offered to trade him anywhere he wanted, and he chose a winning situation in KC and signed a reasonable 3 year, $10 million dollar deal. For comparison, Dan Marino had signed a 5 year, $25 million dollar deal two years prior.

3. I'm not surprised by those numbers, but would you be surprised to hear that the Patriots had 27 different 1st team All-Pros by 17 different players (not counting Brady) since 2001? You say it's not possible to have a plethora of talent in the free agent era, but the Patriots are proof otherwise. They had to cycle those players in and out due to free agency/cap, but the Pats have been masterful about keeping that roster stacked.

4. Cherry picking a few of the weakest players I listed doesn't mean it's not a damn fine list. The Pats have been stacked with talent, as 17 1st team All-Pros and 34 Pro-Bowl players since 2001 would suggest.

5. Moot point, because the Patriots just work in more All-Pros and Pro-Bowlers. For every Collins or C Jones they lose, they've brought in guys like Randy Moss, Darrelle Revis and Junior Seau, willing to play for less to get a ring. That wouldn't have been possible in the 80's, because there was no real free agency.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-20-2020, 03:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I meant to say LIKE Joe Montana lol

I know this would get killed on here, but based on his last year-and-a-half of college ball in an NFL-style offense, he has:

Mobility like Aaron Rogers
Football IQ and "slighted" mentality (I will show you I can play) like Tom Brady
Accuracy like Drew Brees

Now, people will kill me for having crazy expectations of even mentioning those names in the same breath as Burrow's, but that is what I have seen.  Whether he lives up to his billing is anyone's guess, but I sure as hell love what I have seen.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-21-2020, 12:57 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. You shouldn't assume anything when dealing in hypotheticals. Especially when there's evidence that Montana didn't seem to seek the biggest payday even when he had the freedom to do so. The 49ers offered to trade him anywhere he wanted, and he chose a winning situation in KC and signed a reasonable 3 year, $10 million dollar deal. For comparison, Dan Marino had signed a 5 year, $25 million dollar deal two years prior.

5. Moot point, because the Patriots just work in more All-Pros and Pro-Bowlers. For every Collins or C Jones they lose, they've brought in guys like Randy Moss, Darrelle Revis and Junior Seau, willing to play for less to get a ring. That wouldn't have been possible in the 80's, because there was no real free agency.

2.  Montana was a 37-year-old who had thrown 21 passes in the previous 2 years combined, and the last year he played he threw a career high 16 INT. He also hadn't started a full 16 game season since he was 27.

Dan Marino in 1991 (two years prior) was a 30-year-old coming off a 12-4 season and hadn't missed a start in 3 years, and only 4 starts (all in one season) in the previous 7 years.

That hardly goes to show that Joe would take less money.

- - - - - - -


5. And once again...
Moss only played 3 years before they couldn't afford him. 
Revis only played 1 year before they couldn't afford him.
Junior Seau was a 37-year-old shell of his former self when he came to the Patriots and didn't really do much.

Imagine if the Patriots had the ability to deny Moss and Revis FA and just could keep them indefinitely without regards to salary cap.

The same knock goes to the Steelers back in the day. There's zero chance you could keep Shell, Blount, Ham, Lambert, Harris, Stallworth, Bradshaw, and Swann all on the same team in today's game. You literally couldn't afford it under the salary cap rules and so FA would have torn that team apart quickly. That greatly offsets and quickly overwhelms the ability to get an older player for one-three years who might take a little less to win a championship.

[Interceptor]

All this won't mean jack if we can't dominate the trenches and protect him.

[PV Bengal]

(01-20-2020, 04:31 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Thank you!  You understand what’s truly at stake here.  If Joe Burrow is the only quality acquisition the Bengals make in the offseason I guarantee you we’ll have the first pick in the draft all over again in 2021.

Amen to that. Our 5-turnstyles offensive line is gonna have that poor kid running for his life.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-21-2020, 10:53 AM)PV Bengal Wrote: Amen to that. Our 5-turnstyles offensive line is gonna have that poor kid running for his life.

Hopkins was hardly a “turnstile” this season.

This myth that all the other teams around the league have 5 All Galaxy players on their OL just proves how little some people here watch of the NFL outside the Bengals.

The run blocking sucked early on, there’s no denying that, but Dalton brought a lot of pressures and sack on himself as well. You can’t be a statue in today’s NFL. Pass rushers are just too good.

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-20-2020, 04:38 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Doubtful.  Any decent QB play would have had this team at 4-5 wins.

That being said, I hope there's enough done in the offseason to get up to 6-7 wins.  That would set things up nicely for 2021.

Not doubtful. A QB isn't the only player on the team. The 12th player are your coaches and unfortunately 2019 the Bengals has bad play calling by the coaches, lack of WR getting open consistently, receivers dropping the ball, lack of a running game for the 1st 8 games, bad QB play, the defense not able to make the other team offense go 3 and out quickly, etc... are a few reasons 2019 was a failure by the Bengals TEAM. 

All NFL teams are just that TEAMS. Each player, coach, management and the team staff throughout the building are all part of the issues why the team failed. There have been some bright spots but those bright spots are just glimpse of what keeps us FANS coming back. 

A few bad QB plays can hand the ball over but all other players on the field should be able to stop the other team from making a pick 6, to the D making the other team go 3 and out, to the ST providing better field position, etc... 

A bad play by one player and the team failing to pull together to turn it around is why this team continues to fail. GREAT teams find ways to right the mistake made and get the ship back on course. 

And being 4-12 or 2-14 doesn't matter both are horrible records and not play off bound. The Bengals need improvements in all areas and yeah QB will help but so will the WR getting opened, actually having a running game for a full season, etc... 

2020 is a new year and many fans are excited about the draft, FA, etc... 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-20-2020, 11:37 PM)TKUHL Wrote: One foot already in! Let just get the QB and roll. If he’s a bust oh well, we’re used to it. Other than Young who would even be in the conversation as the first pick? Simmons? the Tua....hell no. Our pick should already be in. Washington is on the clock.

Agreed and I highly doubt Burrow will be a bust with his skillset.

(01-21-2020, 08:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I know this would get killed on here, but based on his last year-and-a-half of college ball in an NFL-style offense, he has:

Mobility like Aaron Rogers
Football IQ and "slighted" mentality (I will show you I can play) like Tom Brady
Accuracy like Drew Brees

Now, people will kill me for having crazy expectations of even mentioning those names in the same breath as Burrow's, but that is what I have seen.  Whether he lives up to his billing is anyone's guess, but I sure as hell love what I have seen.  

I see the same, the numbers don't lie either but just watching the guy play he has all the intangibles.

(01-21-2020, 11:13 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Hopkins was hardly a “turnstile” this season.

This myth that all the other teams around the league have 5 All Galaxy players on their OL just proves how little some people here watch of the NFL outside the Bengals.

The run blocking sucked early on, there’s no denying that, but Dalton brought a lot of pressures and sack on himself as well. You can’t be a statue in today’s NFL. Pass rushers are just too good.

True.

Hopkins was good last year man, Jonah will be coming in. Jordan should improve after his rookie season, Miller got better as the 
year went on, Hart isn't as bad as people make him out to be and we will be adding players to the Line.

[HuDey]

(01-20-2020, 04:31 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Thank you!  You understand what’s truly at stake here.  If Joe Burrow is the only quality acquisition the Bengals make in the offseason I guarantee you we’ll have the first pick in the draft all over again in 2021.

While I agree that we need more than just Joe Burrow in order to be contenders, I don't see first pick in the draft happening again next year. Once Joe settles in and makes this his team, the players that are already here will play well enough to avoid first pick status. This team does have pockets of talent and more overall talent than a few of the teams picking after them in this draft. I think that Joe will bring an energy that this team has been lacking for years and will get more out of these guys as a result. I'm not saying playoffs in year one, but definitely not top of the draft again.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-21-2020, 02:28 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Not doubtful. A QB isn't the only player on the team. The 12th player are your coaches and unfortunately 2019 the Bengals has bad play calling by the coaches, lack of WR getting open consistently, receivers dropping the ball, lack of a running game for the 1st 8 games, bad QB play, the defense not able to make the other team offense go 3 and out quickly, etc... are a few reasons 2019 was a failure by the Bengals TEAM. 

All NFL teams are just that TEAMS. Each player, coach, management and the team staff throughout the building are all part of the issues why the team failed. There have been some bright spots but those bright spots are just glimpse of what keeps us FANS coming back. 

A few bad QB plays can hand the ball over but all other players on the field should be able to stop the other team from making a pick 6, to the D making the other team go 3 and out, to the ST providing better field position, etc... 

A bad play by one player and the team failing to pull together to turn it around is why this team continues to fail. GREAT teams find ways to right the mistake made and get the ship back on course. 

And being 4-12 or 2-14 doesn't matter both are horrible records and not play off bound. The Bengals need improvements in all areas and yeah QB will help but so will the WR getting opened, actually having a running game for a full season, etc... 

2020 is a new year and many fans are excited about the draft, FA, etc... 

We lost 8 games by less than 1 score.  You really don't think a good QB would have made a difference in 3-4 of those games?

[Shake n Blake]

(01-21-2020, 09:34 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2.  Montana was a 37-year-old who had thrown 21 passes in the previous 2 years combined, and the last year he played he threw a career high 16 INT. He also hadn't started a full 16 game season since he was 27.

Dan Marino in 1991 (two years prior) was a 30-year-old coming off a 12-4 season and hadn't missed a start in 3 years, and only 4 starts (all in one season) in the previous 7 years.

That hardly goes to show that Joe would take less money.

- - - - - - -


5. And once again...
Moss only played 3 years before they couldn't afford him. 
Revis only played 1 year before they couldn't afford him.
Junior Seau was a 37-year-old shell of his former self when he came to the Patriots and didn't really do much.

Imagine if the Patriots had the ability to deny Moss and Revis FA and just could keep them indefinitely without regards to salary cap.

The same knock goes to the Steelers back in the day. There's zero chance you could keep Shell, Blount, Ham, Lambert, Harris, Stallworth, Bradshaw, and Swann all on the same team in today's game. You literally couldn't afford it under the salary cap rules and so FA would have torn that team apart quickly. That greatly offsets and quickly overwhelms the ability to get an older player for one-three years who might take a little less to win a championship.

2. You're reaching. Yes Joe was getting on in years, but the 21 passes you mention all came in an audition in the last game of the previous season. He threw for 2 TD's with 118.4 passer rating in that game, proving he still had it. He was a legend who clearly had some left in the tank. If he wanted to get paid, he would've gotten paid by someone.

Instead, he chose the best organization that looked like they were a QB away. If you don't think someone would've paid Joe, look at Peyton Manning. Similar situation. 36 year old coming off multiple neck surgeries and the Broncos gave him one of the biggest contracts in the league.

5. Again, the Patriots cycled in more talent when they lost talent. I guess we're going to ignore how many All-Pro and Pro Bowl selections the Patriots have had? Because that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Patriots - regardless of how often they've had to cycle players - have always had a wealth of talent. Different faces, same dominant team. You don't get 6 rings with a coach, QB and a cast of scrubs.