Good info into the Dunlap saga

[Tony]

(10-29-2020, 01:09 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: From John Sheeran and Anthony on Cincy Jungle. https://youtu.be/RYEDbsFTUSc

Watching this now, was gonna post it too.. Wow, Jon gives some good insight into this.. We knew the coaches and Bengals ass a whole were gonna be the villian no matter what because of their past... Sucks...

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-29-2020, 03:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap played like one of the best DEs in the league over the second half of last season.  The front office probably thought it was dumb as hell to get rid of a guy who was producing just because the coaches don't like him personally.

That is why coaches usually aren't GMs.  GMs get talented players and the coaches have to use them properly.

Some fans accuse Dunlap of intentionally underperforming to get his way, but it looks like the coaches did the exact same thing.  They played inferior players just to try and get their way.

Appears to be the only way either party could force MBs hand.....

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-29-2020, 03:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is why coaches usually aren't GMs.  GMs get talented players and the coaches have to use them properly.

Unfortunately in our case, our coaches make much better GM's that the disfunctional trinity that is Mike/Katie/Troy.  And I guess you can throw that loser/scout/yes man Duke Tobin, who's never been qualified to move on from here after 21 years, to make it a foursome.

I'd be totally with you if we actually had a GM, then I'd expect the coaches to realize he knows best.

PS I thought Marvin was pretty much our GM?  So one coach gets to be GM but another doesn't?  Does Duke just slide into that role depending on the coach?  Why is Troy talking about football at all?  It's all so confusing!

[Wes Mantooth]

How sad is it Dunlap actually offered to buy out his contract so they could release him?

Seriously, think about that. How could you be so stubborn not to trade a guy for something in return, that it leads to the player just being like "Look, man. I'll give you back 5 million dollars to just let me out of here!"

[Hoofhearted]

(10-29-2020, 03:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap played like one of the best DEs in the league over the second half of last season.  The front office probably thought it was dumb as hell to get rid of a guy who was producing just because the coaches don't like him personally.

That is why coaches usually aren't GMs.  GMs get talented players and the coaches have to use them properly.

Some fans accuse Dunlap of intentionally underperforming to get his way, but it looks like the coaches did the exact same thing.  They played inferior players just to try and get their way.

I get that, but there's clearly a disconnect between the two parties. If MB says no, and Zach cannot accept that and work with that, that's a huge problem, or vice versa. For both sides. I just don't get how they cannot come to terms with something as simple as wanting to keep/utilize a player 

[fredtoast]

(10-29-2020, 03:14 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: PS I thought Marvin was pretty much our GM?  So one coach gets to be GM but another doesn't? 

No one ever really knew.  There was nothing but speculation over who was making the final call.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Lou is an abomination as a DC. His scheme is passive and idiotic. Plus, you can always tell a bad coach by guys that coach to scheme rather than personnel.

Lou turns natural DEs to OLBs, then is surprised when it doesn't work. He lines Atkins up over C when he is a HOF 3 technique DT. He plays mostly zone coverage when most of our guys are better in man. And let's not even mention end of half/game situations. I am 100% with Dunlap than Lou is a moron.

Having said that, he was unprofessional in the way he acted and (more importantly), played. He had to go, I guess. But I was hoping we'd can Lou and bring in someone to try and salvage things.

[Hoofhearted]

(10-29-2020, 02:56 PM)samhain Wrote: I suspect that with the many, many needs on the roster this past offseason, the FO didn't see any viable way to replace their best pass rusher.  The top end of the draft was going to Burrow and some sort of compliment to him, ie o-line or WR.  Good prime-age DEs are among the most expensive of position players in free agency.  Carlos was the default option.  

I'm not overly impressed with Dunlap's'behavior over the last few weeks, but I still fault Anarumo and the staff.  Anarumo is the definition of a never-will-be in this league.  He's been a position coach on a bunch of shitty defenses, and he got this job because he happened to be the eleventh (eleventh.  let that sink in) option on the team's list during a thoroughly humiliating DC search in 2019.  His performance has been commensurate with his bottom-of-the-barrel hiring.  

Front offices build rosters, but coaches must take what the FO gives them and get the most out of it.  It's all ego garbage, and IMO it's on Lou's behalf, not Carlos.  It's a major reason that coaches fail in this league.  They are so arrogant about their precious "system" and an imperative to adhere to it, that they fail to utilize the talents of players they have that can be productive with tweaks.  Sitting a player that has been productive as recently as late last season because he doesn't fit your system is moronic, particularly when you have very little else in terms of pass-rush talent on your roster.  

I look at it like this: My boss spends money on a new operating system at work that they have used in the past and think highly of.  I think it's dumb and don't like that it changes my routine.  I then proceed to sabotage with intent, then blame the new system for my failures and demand that they get rid of it.  

Lou is garbage.  He needs to be run out of town at the bye.

There's a lot of truth here, but if there's no alignment with how you plan to build your roster with your coaches, your coaches give/take that plan to/from your players, you're simply never going to succeed. There has to be constant, clear and concise communication from the top down. 

[sandwedge]

(10-29-2020, 02:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, AND the player wanted out. That was stupid even for MB.

Has this even been established yet? Dunlap wanted out before this season?

[samhain]

(10-29-2020, 03:35 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: There's a lot of truth here, but if there's no alignment with how you plan to build your roster with your coaches, your coaches give/take that plan to/from your players, you're simply never going to succeed. There has to be constant, clear and concise communication from the top down. 

This is fair.  A lot of the problem is Dunlap getting his 3rd contract right before the season that the team finally decided to part ways with Marvin.  That left a sizable investment in a player that the new staff apparently didn't want for multiple seasons.  That's not a great scenario when you're in need of a rebuild.  

If I fault the FO here it's for 2 things.  The first would be failing to pull the trigger on a rebuild in full and purging all of the high dollar Marvin-era FAs when the Taylor staff came on board.  We had the record of a tanking team last year, whether that was actually the goal or not.  Might as well have dumped the contracts.  The continual effort to rekindle 2015 was disastrous here, and those 3rd deals for the 2 DL are the last gasp of that mindset.


The second would be hiring a DC that had a philosophy that had little to no use for your two highest paid players on defense.  Completely stupid if you have no intent on releasing said players.  If you have 25 mil a year tied up in 2 guys, you'd damn well better hire a DC that know how to/even wants to attempt to try to make use of them.  Anarumo is a criminal hire in that respect.  No only is he outclassed in his position, he's not even a fit for the personnel you've invested in.

In the end, the blame can go many ways.  All I can say is that I'm glad it's over, but I'm not going to crap on one of this franchise's best players over the last decade because he made Lou freaking Anarumo mad.  I feel pretty safe in predicting that in the end, we'll all remember Carlos Dunlap's time as a Bengal much more fondly than Lou's.  Lou sucks and should never have been here to begin with.

[Sled21]

Hmmmm. for the last 5 years ago, I have been hearing lot's of people on this board saying they wish we would switch from the 4/3 to a 3/4, modern football and all. So now we have a coordinator who plays a hybrid 3/4, moving his way to a 3/4 as he adds talent, and a veteran player who prospered in the 4/3 says he just isn't going along with that because he doesn't like it.... and it's the DC's fault. Got it. I guess we just let the vets run the team huh?

[Hoofhearted]

(10-29-2020, 04:01 PM)samhain Wrote: This is fair.  A lot of the problem is Dunlap getting his 3rd contract right before the season that the team finally decided to part ways with Marvin.  That left a sizable investment in a player that the new staff apparently didn't want for multiple seasons.  That's not a great scenario when you're in need of a rebuild.  

If I fault the FO here it's for 2 things.  The first would be failing to pull the trigger on a rebuild in full and purging all of the high dollar Marvin-era FAs when the Taylor staff came on board.  We had the record of a tanking team last year, whether that was actually the goal or not.  Might as well have dumped the contracts.  The continual effort to rekindle 2015 was disastrous here, and those 3rd deals for the 2 DL are the last gasp of that mindset.


The second would be hiring a DC that had a philosophy that had little to no use for your two highest paid players on defense.  Completely stupid if you have no intent on releasing said players.  If you have 25 mil a year tied up in 2 guys, you'd damn well better hire a DC that know how to/even wants to attempt to try to make use of them.  Anarumo is a criminal hire in that respect.  No only is he outclassed in his position, he's not even a fit for the personnel you've invested in.

In the end, the blame can go many ways.  All I can say is that I'm glad it's over, but I'm not going to crap on one of this franchise's best players over the last decade because he made Lou freaking Anarumo mad.  I feel pretty safe in predicting that in the end, we'll all remember Carlos Dunlap's time as a Bengal much more fondly than Lou's.  Lou sucks and should never have been here to begin with.

Absolutely, positively spot on. No disagreement/rebuttal with anything said here. 

[samhain]

(10-29-2020, 04:03 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Hmmmm. for the last 5 years ago, I have been hearing lot's of people on this board saying they wish we would switch from the 4/3 to a 3/4, modern football and all.  So now we have a coordinator who plays a hybrid 3/4, moving his way to a 3/4 as he adds talent, and a veteran player who prospered in the 4/3 says he just isn't going along with that because he doesn't like it.... and it's the DC's fault. Got it. I guess we just let the vets run the team huh?

Yeah.  Also seem to remember most of the people here saying there was no way we'd switch to a 3-4 due to the top-end personnel on defense being better fits in a 4-3, mainly Geno.  

It's the DC's fault because he's a shitty DC first and foremost, and secondly because he's too arrogant to make adjustments to his system with respect to the talent he actually had on hand as opposed to what he wishes he had.

[Sled21]

(10-29-2020, 04:07 PM)samhain Wrote: Yeah.  Also seem to remember most of the people here saying there was no way we'd switch to a 3-4 due to the top-end personnel on defense being better fits in a 4-3, mainly Geno.  

It's the DC's fault because he's a shitty DC first and foremost, and secondly because he's too arrogant to make adjustments to his system with respect to the talent he actually had on hand as opposed to what he wishes he had.

Geno and Carlos may be better suited to 4/3, and they are, but as many have pointed out here there time in Cincy is coming to a close. So any DC in the position who plans to switch defenses has to start his new guys off in the system they will be playing in... not cater to the vets who refuse to change in the short time they have left. I get it, everyone hates Lou... but take him out of it.  If a DC plans on switching, he has to do it while bringing guys in.

[Hoofhearted]

On a lighter note, doesn't John Sheeran look exactly like Shea Labeouf from transformers?

[*Nately120*]

(10-29-2020, 04:03 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I guess we just let the vets run the team huh?

Our current system of having a QB coach, his unemployed pals, and the grand kids of a competent football mind hasn't exactly been paying dividends.

[Sled21]

(10-29-2020, 04:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Our current system of having a QB coach, his unemployed pals, and the grand kids of a competent football mind hasn't exactly been paying dividends.

Ok, fine, but that means no complaining about vets and high draft picks playing no matter what. Back to the Merv days....

[fredtoast]

(10-29-2020, 04:03 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Hmmmm. for the last 5 years ago, I have been hearing lot's of people on this board saying they wish we would switch from the 4/3 to a 3/4, modern football and all.  So now we have a coordinator who plays a hybrid 3/4, moving his way to a 3/4 as he adds talent, and a veteran player who prospered in the 4/3 says he just isn't going along with that because he doesn't like it.... and it's the DC's fault. Got it. I guess we just let the vets run the team huh?

Lots of kids want ice cream, but that does not mean they will like shit flavored ice cream.

Fans are not upset at Lou for running more of a 3-4 hybrid.  They are upset by the fact that our defense can't stop anyone.

[coachmcneil71]

(10-29-2020, 04:12 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Geno and Carlos may be better suited to 4/3, and they are, but as many have pointed out here there time in Cincy is coming to a close. So any DC in the position who plans to switch defenses has to start his new guys off in the system they will be playing in... not cater to the vets who refuse to change in the short time they have left. I get it, everyone hates Lou... but take him out of it.  If a DC plans on switching, he has to do it while bringing guys in.

If they're determined to switch to he 3-4 or hybrid of such, they should bring in Wade Phillips. 

[*Nately120*]

(10-29-2020, 04:20 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Ok, fine, but that means no complaining about vets and high draft picks playing no matter what. Back to the Merv days....

I'm not going to bat for Dunlap so much as pointing out how ZT and Lou are so bad that they are really hard to defend.  Hell, you say going back to the Merv days as if going back to the days where we were a mediocre team wouldn't be a huge step up in the world.  Oof.

(10-29-2020, 04:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lots of kids want ice cream, but that does not mean they will like shit flavored ice cream.

We'll let the marketing department handle that part, Fred.