Chase versus Pitts

[*ochocincos*]

(03-23-2021, 02:38 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: He could be a top 10 pick like you say. I just don't want the Bengals picking him there when they're are more pressing needs. TE that high is a luxury pick that doesn't pay out. 

I asked earlier today for someone to name a top 10 drafted TE in the last 25 years that lived up to their draft spot and there haven't been any. 

If you expand that out to top 15 in the draft and Tony Gonzalez is the only example I could find. If the Bengals can trade down to the teens and accumulate the draft capital that goes with it, that's the only scenario I'd be ok with selecting Pitts.   

If you're picking for need, you'll miss out on some great players.

What's your definition of "living up to their draft spot"?
TJ Hockenson was the most recent Top 10 TE drafted, and he had the 3rd most receiving yards amongst TEs this past year.
And Pitts looks even better than Hockenson.

I think you are pidgeonholing Pitts to be a traditional TE, but he's more than that. He can play TE, he can play slot, and he has even played X receiver. If you take him, you should expect he can be used as a traditional WR too, and use him as such.

[Luvnit2]

So far it appears Pitts with a slight edge over Chase. I find it interesting that some have dug in and 100% against Pitts being considered. As I read posts, I see great arguments to select either one.

I did say Sewell was gone when I started the thread and we could not find a trade partner in this scenario I did vote for Pitts. But if all 3 were available:

Sewell
Pitts (best TE prospect to be available via draft in a long time)
Chase - Love him too, but always seems to be a #1 WR found in rounds 2 through 4 each year. There will not be a Pitts available in round 2 through 4 in this draft and likely any draft ever.

As for the future contracts, if Chase or Pitts become great, they both will break the bank, Chase more so because WR's get paid more than TE's traditionally and with the tag.

[Whatever]

(03-23-2021, 02:24 PM)Au165 Wrote: Jimmy Graham tried this when it came to the tag, he lost in arbitration. 

The main reason Graham lost is even though he was split out most of the time, teams usually defended him with a LB or S.  If Pitts backs up that 4.46, teams will be forced to put a CB on him, especially If you're going to put him as an X or Z as some are predicting.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-22-2021, 10:36 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I hear and see a lot of Sewell versus Chase for pick #5. Here is the senario. Sewell is gone, we try but can't find a trade partner.

Do you pick Chase or Pitts or another OT?

I like both players A LOT. So nice thread. Of the 2 I take Kyle Pitts just cause he not only can play TE and be that big Red Zone
threat we really need, he can line up at Receiver and create mismatches all over the field. This also forces Taylor to use the TE 
more in the passing game and Pitts is a trying blocker, he isn't great but no TE should be told to block a Defense's best pass 
rusher like we have done in the past idiotically.

Really like Chase though, my top WR in this class for us with his build, speed and Burrow chemistry.

[bengaloo]

(03-23-2021, 03:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I like both players A LOT. So nice thread. Of the 2 I take Kyle Pitts just cause he not only can play TE and be that big Red Zone
threat we really need, he can line up at Receiver and create mismatches all over the field. This also forces Taylor to use the TE 
more in the passing game and Pitts is a trying blocker, he isn't great but no TE should be told to block a Defense's best pass 
rusher like we have done in the past idiotically.

Really like Chase though, my top WR in this class for us with his build, speed and Burrow chemistry.

Pitts is like a WR/TE hybrid it seems. I dont know if the NFL has ever seen someone like him. 6'6" 240 with a 4.4 and great hands and body control? Sheesh. Its a tough choice between Chase and Pitts. Chase is a homerun threat WR every route he runs. Pitts, like you said is an insane red zone threat and mismatch everywhere. He can run with most CB's and beat the tar out of S's and LB's. He would be quite a weapon used properly. 

[*Synric*]

Ben Baby retweeted this great twitter tread.

Watched the tape on #Florida TE Kyle Pitts (6-foot-6, 246) —

Dynamic, explosive, fluid. High-end matchup ability in the pass game from multiple alignments — TE, Slot, Boundary X WR.

Here, Pitts aligns to the backside of trips (closed). Sting route (corner-post).@NFLMatchup pic.twitter.com/kaK9CvQiWE

— Matt Bowen (@MattBowen41) March 23, 2021

Several clips two of them is Kyle Pitts line up at X Receiver hauls in to great catches vs Patrick Surtain and Jaycee Horn both will be 1st round corners.

[Whatever]

(03-23-2021, 02:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If you're picking for need, you'll miss out on some great players.

What's your definition of "living up to their draft spot"?
TJ Hockenson was the most recent Top 10 TE drafted, and he had the 3rd most receiving yards amongst TEs this past year.
And Pitts looks even better than Hockenson.

I think you are pidgeonholing Pitts to be a traditional TE, but he's more than that. He can play TE, he can play slot, and he has even played X receiver. If you take him, you should expect he can be used as a traditional WR too, and use him as such.

Pitts looks better than Hockenson as a receiving option.  Hockenson was a much better blocker coming out.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-23-2021, 03:34 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Pitts is like a WR/TE hybrid it seems. I dont know if the NFL has ever seen someone like him. 6'6" 240 with a 4.4 and great hands and body control? Sheesh. Its a tough choice between Chase and Pitts. Chase is a homerun threat WR every route he runs. Pitts, like you said is an insane red zone threat and mismatch everywhere. He can run with most CB's and beat the tar out of S's and LB's. He would be quite a weapon used properly. 

Well said Bengaloo. Like you said, I don't know of another player like Pitts with his size, speed and ability to run routes.

Just a matchup nightmare I think Burrow could make ROPY if they stay healthy.

Love Chase too, just with that size and ability it is just so rare and Pitts will just make a QB's job so much easier.

[Au165]

(03-23-2021, 03:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: The main reason Graham lost is even though he was split out most of the time, teams usually defended him with a LB or S.  If Pitts backs up that 4.46, teams will be forced to put a CB on him, especially If you're going to put him as an X or Z as some are predicting.

That was Sean Payton's argument, however, the arbitrator based it around his alignment in relation to the tackle box more than anything. Graham's main argument was his alignment and the arbitrator rejected it as physical traits, attributes, and even self-declaration of position are more important than alignment (which wasn't as "WR" like as Graham wanted to portray). 

[Au165]

(03-23-2021, 03:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Ben Baby retweeted this great twitter tread.

Watched the tape on #Florida TE Kyle Pitts (6-foot-6, 246) —

Dynamic, explosive, fluid. High-end matchup ability in the pass game from multiple alignments — TE, Slot, Boundary X WR.

Here, Pitts aligns to the backside of trips (closed). Sting route (corner-post).@NFLMatchup pic.twitter.com/kaK9CvQiWE

— Matt Bowen (@MattBowen41) March 23, 2021

Several clips two of them is Kyle Pitts line up at X Receiver hauls in to great catches vs Patrick Surtain and Jaycee Horn both will be 1st round corners.

I have been saying for weeks, the backside capability for Pitts with a trips set opposite him in a nasty split is mind-blowing. That is the staple of the KC offense that either springs Hill or Kelce almost every time they run it. Deep over from the 3 position with Kelce running an option on the backside.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-23-2021, 03:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Ben Baby retweeted this great twitter tread.

Watched the tape on #Florida TE Kyle Pitts (6-foot-6, 246) —

Dynamic, explosive, fluid. High-end matchup ability in the pass game from multiple alignments — TE, Slot, Boundary X WR.

Here, Pitts aligns to the backside of trips (closed). Sting route (corner-post).@NFLMatchup pic.twitter.com/kaK9CvQiWE

— Matt Bowen (@MattBowen41) March 23, 2021

Several clips two of them is Kyle Pitts line up at X Receiver hauls in to great catches vs Patrick Surtain and Jaycee Horn both will be 1st round corners.

I remember when Eifert was in his prime in 2015 and he was the best route running TE in the NFL in my opinion.

Pitts can be this but could be the best ever if he lives up to his talent and keeps a solid head on his shoulders.

Pitts runs great routes, that outside/inside seam route was a thing of beauty.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-23-2021, 03:34 PM)Whatever Wrote: Pitts looks better than Hockenson as a receiving option.  Hockenson was a much better blocker coming out.  

Yes, but a TE being taken in Top 10 is being taken that high because of receiving ability, not blocking.

[Au165]

(03-23-2021, 03:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, but a TE being taken in Top 10 is being taken that high because of receiving ability, not blocking.

You mean to tell me valuing a TE for their blocking prowess like Drew Sample is not the move?!

[Whatever]

(03-23-2021, 03:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, but a TE being taken in Top 10 is being taken that high because of receiving ability, not blocking.

A TE isn't being taken that high if he doesn't have high end receiving ability.  However, Pitts and Hockenson are two different types of players.  Pitts is more Darren Waller/Jimmy Graham.  Hock is more Gronk/Heath Miller.  

[Whatever]

(03-23-2021, 03:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: That was Sean Payton's argument, however, the arbitrator based it around his alignment in relation to the tackle box more than anything. Graham's main argument was his alignment and the arbitrator rejected it as physical traits, attributes, and even self-declaration of position are more important than alignment (which wasn't as "WR" like as Graham wanted to portray). 

That ruling only applies to snaps taken within 4 yards of the nearest OL and is based largely upon Payton's argument of how the player is defended.  

[RiverRat13]

(03-23-2021, 01:54 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: When it comes to statistical production in college, there is no correlation to NFL success. If a QB throws for 5000 yards in college, this isn’t a strong indicator of that QB being successful in the NFL. Texas Tech and Hawaii are examples of this. A receiver with 1800 yards in a season isn’t a strong indicator of success in the NFL.

AJ Green had 848 yards in college with 9 TDs. He was 56th in the nation in yards and 32nd in touchdowns. Despite these less than stellar numbers comparatively, he went #4 overall and has had a stellar NFL career. This is because of the traits and abilities he possessed. Michael Crabtree had 1962 yards in 2007. Despite this, he has went over 1000 yards only twice in his career. Trevor Insley had 2060 yards in 1999. He was undrafted and had less than 200 yards for his NFL career.

There is no correlation of college productions predicting NFL success. The abilities they show while producing those stats, mediocre or spectacular, is what matters and that’s why being successful at drafting is pretty difficult.

AJ was suspended for 4 games his junior year for taking benefits from an agent. He would have been over 1200 yards with those 4 additional games.

[KillerGoose]

(03-23-2021, 05:02 PM)RiverRat13 Wrote: AJ was suspended for 4 games his junior year for taking benefits from an agent. He would have been over 1200 yards with those 4 additional games.

He also never had over 1000 yards in a season for his career. Even if he gets 1200 yards that season, he is in the company of...

Greg Salas - Out of the NFL
Justin Blackmon - Good, alcohol issues, out of the NFL
Ryan Broyles - Out of the NFL
Alshon Jeffery - Decent career, still in the league
Jordan White - Never heard of him.
Vincent Brown - Never heard of him.
Kealoha Pilates - Never heard of him.
Aldrick Robinson - Never heard of him.
Juron Criner - Out of the NFL.
Demarco Sampson - Never heard of him.
Titus Young - Talented but had issues.

That’s the point I was making. High statistical production in college doesn’t correlate to NFL success.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-23-2021, 10:27 AM)Au165 Wrote: Offensive scheme? The guy can literally play X. What about the "scheme" doesn't he fit? He fits every scheme in the NFL because he is a weapon and simply calling him a TE is a dated view of the game.

He has not run the route tree of an X receiver and I am not spending the #5 overall pick on a project over the guy that broke every WR record in the SEC...at 19 years of age.  

[Au165]

(03-23-2021, 07:30 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He has not run the route tree of an X receiver and I am not spending the #5 overall pick on a project over the guy that broke every WR record in the SEC...at 19 years of age.  

What route hasn’t he ran?

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-23-2021, 01:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Pitts' unofficial 40 time matches Darren Waller's 40 time at 4.46.
Waller's height and weight are also near-identical to Pitts. 6'5", 241 lb for Waller, 6'6", 240 lb for Pitts.
That speed is just about 0.1 sec slower than Calvin Johnson, who was about the same size.
Megatron obviously stayed full-time at WR whereas Waller is more like a WR-TE hybrid.

Ja'Marr Chase reportedly ran 4.40 back last Summer, according to Bleacher Report. But he's "just" 6'1", 208 lb.

Personally, I'd take the 6'6", 240 lb guy who runs in upper 4.4's over a shorter guy who runs 4.40.
But both are very appealing.

Sorry to flame you on this, bud, but this is exactly the problem that I have with Pitts.  People look at his size and speed (straight line) and think he will be indestructible, but Chase is a far better route runner and is very smooth in his deception.  

If everyone wants Pitts to play WR since that is his skill set, you have no idea how he will uncover against NFL safeties and CBs when he had LBs trying to cover him in college.  

And there is no way I am moving Tyler Boyd out of the slot for him, either.