Chase versus Pitts

[Whatever]

(03-24-2021, 05:00 PM)Synric Wrote: "Starting X Receiver" All the Boundary receivers will end up taking snaps at all 3 positions X, Z, and Y. Kyle Pitts can win as an X has shown it against the best college football has to offer. He can win in the slot, he can win as an TE-F, and TE-Y.


Most people agains't Pitts are stuck on his "Tight End" tag don't view him as a TE think of everything he can do. How he can transform your offense. Pitts instantly becomes the most dynamic piece on a offense that you can build around.

I would disagree with instantly.  NFL offenses have a lot checks and hot reads that college offenses don't have.  When you're wanting to line a guy up at a bunch of different positions, that exponentially increases the amount of those checks he has to learn.  It you're using him as a TE, he also has things like blocking assignments and blitz pickups he has to learn.  That's a lot for a rookie to take in.  He has the physical tools to line up anywhere, assuming he can back that 40 up, but whether he has the football IQ to keep it all straight, especially as a rookie, is a whole different can of worms.  That's not to say he wouldn't be a great get, but temper expectations for the guy as a rookie.  Rookie TE's tend to struggle, anyway.

[Essex Johnson]

(03-24-2021, 07:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not sure the team sees it that way.
This is just my assumption, but I get the sense they feel OT is covered with Reiff added.
As such, they just need to worry about OG, which they can get a guy either later in Rd 1 or in Rd 2.
I have a feeling their top two guys are Sewell and Chase.
I'd like for Pitts to be in that convo too, but we don't know how the team is viewing Pitts. They probably won't take Pitts if they treat him as TE-only and want their TEs to be more blockers like they were the past two years.
So if Sewell is off the board, my money is on pass catcher, not OL.

I don;t think they feel covered at all.. Reiff is on a 1 maybe 2 yr contract.. they could be back to square one next year.. and with the lack of moves in FA on the Oline I fully see them looking at our high picks.. it just depends on how they see our bad guard position and if they feel Slater is that good for #5 or if they might trade back to add a pick... 

I think most of us and the Bengals probably also still see Oline as the biggest need so would not surprise me if they go Oline in 1st. 

[samhain]

(03-22-2021, 01:05 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Ive been banging the table for Pitts for months now.
Theres a old saying "you cant teach size"

He is 6'6 and runs routes like a WR. 
His routes are precise not rounded off. 
Imagine if he was a Bengal and he is spilt out like a WR.
You.can still use Sample as a TE and have him block
Now you got Boyd Higgins and Pitts on the field.
What CB can take on a 6'6 target that is a already a good route 
Runner?

I was anti-Pitts until I read an article comparing him to Megatron.  If you remove the TE positional designation from his profile, he's possibly the best receiver in the draft.  Is this realistic? Can you take him and just plug him in as a WR?  If so, then it's a tough choice.  I'd probably still go Chase, as I believe he's got the traits and ability to be a weapon in this league right out of the gate.  Pitts wouldn't hurt my feelings, though.  I'm excited that they are practically guaranteed to get one of these two or Penei.  I like trading back and all, but all 3 of those guys could be top players at their positions sooner or later.  I really don't like passing up elite quality for quantity.

[impactplaya]

(03-24-2021, 10:47 PM)samhain Wrote: I was anti-Pitts until I read an article comparing him to Megatron.  If you remove the TE positional designation from his profile, he's possibly the best receiver in the draft.  Is this realistic? Can you take him and just plug him in as a WR?  If so, then it's a tough choice.  I'd probably still go Chase, as I believe he's got the traits and ability to be a weapon in this league right out of the gate.  Pitts wouldn't hurt my feelings, though.  I'm excited that they are practically guaranteed to get one of these two or Penei.  I like trading back and all, but all 3 of those guys could be top players at their positions sooner or later.  I really don't like passing up elite quality for quantity.

I was thinking today and its a whack theroy.
What if the Bengals draft Jamar Chase?
Now you have a situation where now you have
A QB and WR that has history and success together
People will say "look.at their chemistry"

Well.there is a flipside to that. 
All WRs want to be the "man". Every WR thinks he's a #1
Well because up until they arrived in the NFL, they were #1 or #2s in college.
There is a chance JB could feel pressured to get Chase
The football because of their past success
You think.Chase would be content being the #3 behind
Boyd and Higgins? 
In time Chase wants to be the man. 

I saw this in.Cleveland where the Browns offense
Was better without OBJ cause Mayfield wasnt pressured 
To get him the ball. 
He was able to spread the ball out minus OBJ.

[GreenCornBengal]

(03-24-2021, 11:19 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I was thinking today and its a whack theroy.
What if the Bengals draft Jamar Chase?
Now you have a situation where now you have
A QB and WR that has history and success together
People will say "look.at their chemistry"

Well.there is a flipside to that. 
All WRs want to be the "man". Every WR thinks he's a #1
Well because up until they arrived in the NFL, they were #1 or #2s in college.
There is a chance JB could feel pressured to get Chase
The football because of their past success
You think.Chase would be content being the #3 behind
Boyd and Higgins? 
In time Chase wants to be the man. 

I saw this in.Cleveland where the Browns offense
Was better without OBJ cause Mayfield wasnt pressured 
To get him the ball. 
He was able to spread the ball out minus OBJ.

Chase and Jefferson worked just fine together, and both are very good. Jefferson is similar to Boyd in skill set.

I personally don’t think it would be a problem. Joe is good at distributing the ball around and if we are still throwing 40+ times a game with limited TE usage these guys are gonna get their chances.

[Whatever]

(03-24-2021, 11:19 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I was thinking today and its a whack theroy.
What if the Bengals draft Jamar Chase?
Now you have a situation where now you have
A QB and WR that has history and success together
People will say "look.at their chemistry"

Well.there is a flipside to that. 
All WRs want to be the "man". Every WR thinks he's a #1
Well because up until they arrived in the NFL, they were #1 or #2s in college.
There is a chance JB could feel pressured to get Chase
The football because of their past success
You think.Chase would be content being the #3 behind
Boyd and Higgins? 
In time Chase wants to be the man. 

I saw this in.Cleveland where the Browns offense
Was better without OBJ cause Mayfield wasnt pressured 
To get him the ball. 
He was able to spread the ball out minus OBJ.

That happens anyways, regardless of them being college teammates.  I mean, how many sound clips have we heard of Dalton on the sidelines talking about getting AJ involved?  Or Chad calling coaches up at 2 am and saying " I'm open," then hanging up?  You have problems when you have scrub WR's calling for the ball.

I think Joe will do fine.  Remember, he had both Chase and Jefferson, plus Randy Moss's kid in college.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-24-2021, 02:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: You never answered my question, what route can't he run? I ask because he practiced the last year with WR's at Florida and ran their route trees in practice every day, and it all transferred to the tape. I got video clips of him running various level digs, Bang 8's, slants, corners, fades, wheel routes, whip routes, and these are against high-end corners too, not just linebackers. He is a CRISP route runner and runs many of them with the nuance of very high-end WR's, showing an ability to set up routes as the game progresses. 

You say that he is a CRISP route runner and runs "many" of them with the nuance of a very high-end WR, but I disagree.  He doesn't run routes nearly as effectively as Chase, Waddle, or Smith.  It isn't to say he can't run a specific route, but he simply isn't the route runner of the other three.  

If he was a dominant blocker as well, I would say you could use him as a TE where he lines up "tight" or in the slot, but we don't need him as a slot WR and he isn't the blocker you need to line up tight.  That leaves outside, where Travis Kelce lined up fewer than 5% of his snaps last year as he led the league in receptions.


This is still about matchups and what I love about Chase, Waddle, and Smith, is how much it would force defenses to drop safeties and open up the middle of the field to the likes of Sample, Boyd, Higgins, and even Gio/Mixon.

To be clear:  I am not saying "he sucks" or anything stupid like that, but I don't see him helping this offense the way one of the top 3 WRs could.  

[*ochocincos*]

(03-24-2021, 10:01 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I don;t think they feel covered at all.. Reiff is on a 1 maybe 2 yr contract.. they could be back to square one next year.. and with the lack of moves in FA on the Oline I fully see them looking at our high picks.. it just depends on how they see our bad guard position and if they feel Slater is that good for #5 or if they might trade back to add a pick... 

I think most of us and the Bengals probably also still see Oline as the biggest need so would not surprise me if they go Oline in 1st. 

Correct, Reiff and Spain are only on one-year deals. However, for 2021, they are here.
The team may decide they will be covered for this year and just get a new OG and/or OT next year.
In total, here is the roster:
OT = Williams, Reiff, Adeniji, Johnson
OG = Spain, XSF, Jordan, Sutherland
C = Hopkins, Price

I don't recall a time more than maybe once in the past decade where they've kept more than 10 OL on the roster.
Williams, Reiff, Spain, XSF, and Hopkins are locks to make the roster.
Price probably isn't getting replaced due to Hopkins injury.
Sutherland is the most likely candidate to get replaced by a draft pick, but I'm not sure how many more of the other guys would get knocked off in favor of a draft pick. Maybe 1-2 of them.

My guess - The Bengals take one OL on Day 1/2 and one on Day 3.

[BigRed75]

I'm a huge Gator fan so there isn't a snap of Pitts I haven't seen. I have struggled with who to take including OL but if Sewell is gone it's a no brainer to take Pitts or Chase. However, I'm now of the opinion if Sewell is there I still want Pitts or Chase. Pitts is not the best blocker but he is no slouch either...he worked very hard this past offseason to improve that and he made tremendous strides. Pitts can literally play TE or WR positions as many of stated and he is truly a mismatch. The Burrow and Chase chemistry is certainly a factor that needs to be considered. I understand why players chose to sit out the 2020 season but that also doesn't sit well with me given the vast majority of guys still wanted to play. Additionally if memory serves me correct, Pitts had zero drops in 2020. Gator fandom aside, I have landed that Pitts needs to be the pick.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-24-2021, 11:19 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I was thinking today and its a whack theroy.
What if the Bengals draft Jamar Chase?
Now you have a situation where now you have
A QB and WR that has history and success together
People will say "look.at their chemistry"

Well.there is a flipside to that. 
All WRs want to be the "man". Every WR thinks he's a #1
Well because up until they arrived in the NFL, they were #1 or #2s in college.
There is a chance JB could feel pressured to get Chase
The football because of their past success
You think.Chase would be content being the #3 behind
Boyd and Higgins? 
In time Chase wants to be the man. 

I saw this in.Cleveland where the Browns offense
Was better without OBJ cause Mayfield wasnt pressured 
To get him the ball. 
He was able to spread the ball out minus OBJ.

The likelihood that the Bengals do a near-equal distribution of 100-110 targets to three WRs is likely not going to happen.
If someone like Chase is drafted, Chase likely would become the primary target and get 120+ targets.
What I would more expect to happen is Boyd or Higgins losing targets and essentially becoming third option in the offense.

[Au165]

(03-25-2021, 09:00 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You say that he is a CRISP route runner and runs "many" of them with the nuance of a very high-end WR, but I disagree.  He doesn't run routes nearly as effectively as Chase, Waddle, or Smith.  It isn't to say he can't run a specific route, but he simply isn't the route runner of the other three.  

Why do you disagree? Can you point to something technically he is doing wrong? You told me earlier he couldn't run the full tree, but now you say there isn't a specific route he can't run. Funny enough, Chase runs a more limited route tree because where he aligned and he is not nearly as precise running things like a slant for instance as Pitts is. Pitts isolated in the red zone on a reduced split simply isn't fair. He can go fade then he comes back with the stutter slant and finally the whip route.

It's okay, you can simply say the "TE" next to Pitts name is what bothers you. You mention the other guys force teams to "drop safeties", which I am guessing you mean play a two high shell. The reality is a guy like chase forces teams to play a single high robber look which gives this Boyd and Higgins man to man looks all game, something I'm sure Burrow would really appreciate.

[impactplaya]

(03-25-2021, 10:42 AM)ochocincos Wrote: The likelihood that the Bengals do a near-equal distribution of 100-110 targets to three WRs is likely not going to happen.
If someone like Chase is drafted, Chase likely would become the primary target and get 120+ targets.
What I would more expect to happen is Boyd or Higgins losing targets and essentially becoming third option in the offense.

Thats just it. Tee Higgins is expecting to be the #1 now that 
AJ is gone. Boyd is comfortable at 2...he's going to get his targets. If Chase gets drafted hes going to.expect to be the #1
Over time. 
I can see a healthy competition in the WR room
And I can see egos possibly getting in the way of harmoney

[*ochocincos*]

(03-25-2021, 11:07 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Thats just it. Tee Higgins is expecting to be the #1 now that 
AJ is gone. Boyd is comfortable at 2...he's going to get his targets. If Chase gets drafted hes going to.expect to be the #1
Over time. 
I can see a healthy competition in the WR room
And I can see egos possibly getting in the way of harmoney

I'm personally fine with Higgins and Boyd being WR1 and WR2. Both show they are capable to put up 1000+ yards in a season.
The Bengals only "need" someone who can put up 700+ yards.
But some people seem to want the Bengals to have a third upper-tier WR because they like to run a lot of 3-WR sets.

I don't know if there would be big egos necessarily while they are on the team, but I could see Higgins or Boyd wanting to leave after contract is up if they get less targets than they'd like.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-25-2021, 10:51 AM)Au165 Wrote: Why do you disagree? Can you point to something technically he is doing wrong? You told me earlier he couldn't run the full tree, but now you say there isn't a specific route he can't run. Funny enough, Chase runs a more limited route tree because where he aligned and he is not nearly as precise running things like a slant for instance as Pitts is. Pitts isolated in the red zone on a reduced split simply isn't fair. He can go fade then he comes back with the stutter slant and finally the whip route.

It's okay, you can simply say the "TE" next to Pitts name is what bothers you. You mention the other guys force teams to "drop safeties", which I am guessing you mean play a two high shell. The reality is a guy like chase forces teams to play a single high robber look which gives this Boyd and Higgins man to man looks all game, something I'm sure Burrow would really appreciate.

I simply believe Chase creates more mismatch issues than Pitts.  If you are going to line up Pitts outside, fine, but I don't think he is as strong as Chase. 

You completely disregarded my point about Kelce lining up outside less than 5% of the time.  So, tell me where you would line up Pitts and let me know if you believe he is as good in that role as Chase, Waddle, or Smith.  

[CoachGeorge]

(03-24-2021, 11:19 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I saw this in.Cleveland where the Browns offense
Was better without OBJ cause Mayfield wasnt pressured 
To get him the ball. 
He was able to spread the ball out minus OBJ.

Is that really cause and effect? They brought in a competent head coach, a legendary o-line coach, invested heavily on their o-line and established one of the best run games in the NFL. They might be even better with OBJ.

[CoachGeorge]

(03-25-2021, 12:03 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I simply believe Chase creates more mismatch issues than Pitts.  If you are going to line up Pitts outside, fine, but I don't think he is as strong as Chase. 

You completely disregarded my point about Kelce lining up outside less than 5% of the time.  So, tell me where you would line up Pitts and let me know if you believe he is as good in that role as Chase, Waddle, or Smith.  

Florida lined him 3 feet from the tackle ala Jimmy Graham in his prime in NO. Their QB Trask mentioned that it led to great pre-play reads. Cover with a safety and the defense is likely zone. Cover him with a CB is highly likely man (at least to that side of the field). Not many risked LB ‘s covering him). Defenses are far more used to Chase-style WR’s (and there are quite a few) than TE’s with Pitts skill set.

[Au165]

(03-25-2021, 12:03 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I simply believe Chase creates more mismatch issues than Pitts.  If you are going to line up Pitts outside, fine, but I don't think he is as strong as Chase. 

You completely disregarded my point about Kelce lining up outside less than 5% of the time.  So, tell me where you would line up Pitts and let me know if you believe he is as good in that role as Chase, Waddle, or Smith.  

Kelce doesn't line up"outside", however he is lined up in a nasty split opposite a trips sets at least 10 plays a game. Again, while not "outside" it is isolated off the line forcing teams to play him singled. Out of this formation they run their go to play, which is an over route by 3 (usually Hill) with Kelce running an option route. 

I am not saying you line him "outside" and play him as an X, I am saying you can move him anywhere on the field and have a mismatch. Let's say we come out in 12 personnel, we will say single back Ace, and so the defense is going to play you in a base formation. Out of that you can motion Pitts into the slot and now you either have a LB walking out and covering him on a two way go, or a safety has to roll down. Maybe we go 12 personnel, and instead go single back twins. You have Pitts on the backside of the twins set, you can run him out of the inline and he has a two way go once again OR you motion him wide now opposite the twins set and you have a linebacker on an island. We can use Chase as an H-back that motions across a formation fakes a run block on PA and can run a route similar to Hernandez, on a now cheating up linebacker or safety.

Pitts is a huge mismatch piece, Chase is a really good WR who is singular in his role. If you want a mismatch you want Pitts, if you want a really good WR who will just be a really good WR Chase is your guy. I envision whoever takes Pitts moving him all around and getting creative with his uses, but that may not be Taylor's thing and in that case I'd agree taking a WR (I actually like Smith over Chase though).

[Au165]

(03-25-2021, 12:21 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: Florida lined him 3 feet from the tackle ala Jimmy Graham in his prime in NO.  Their QB Trask mentioned that it led to great pre-play reads.  Cover with a safety and the defense is likely zone.  Cover him with a CB is highly likely man (at least to that side of the field). Not many risked LB ‘s covering him). Defenses are far more used to Chase-style WR’s (and there are quite a few) than TE’s with Pitts skill set.

That's the "Nasty" split I keep talking about in this thread. It's how KC uses Kelce often.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-25-2021, 12:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: Kelce doesn't line up"outside", however he is lined up in a nasty split opposite a trips sets at least 10 plays a game. Again, while not "outside" it is isolated off the line forcing teams to play him singled. Out of this formation they run their go to play, which is an over route by 3 (usually Hill) with Kelce running an option route. 

I am not saying you line him "outside" and play him as an X, I am saying you can move him anywhere on the field and have a mismatch. Let's say we come out in 12 personnel, we will say single back Ace, and so the defense is going to play you in a base formation. Out of that you can motion Pitts into the slot and now you either have a LB walking out and covering him on a two way go, or a safety has to roll down. Maybe we go 12 personnel, and instead go single back twins. You have Pitts on the backside of the twins set, you can run him out of the inline and he has a two way go once again OR you motion him wide now opposite the twins set and you have a linebacker on an island. We can use Chase as an H-back that motions across a formation fakes a run block on PA and can run a route similar to Hernandez, on a now cheating up linebacker or safety.

Pitts is a huge mismatch piece, Chase is a really good WR who is singular in his role. If you want a mismatch you want Pitts, if you want a really good WR who will just be a really good WR Chase is your guy. I envision whoever takes Pitts moving him all around and getting creative with his uses, but that may not be Taylor's thing and in that case I'd agree taking a WR (I actually like Smith over Chase though).

Have you seen Chase's numbers on throws over 20 yards?  There are WRs that don't have those kind of numbers within 5 yards of the LOS.  I think he presents the better thing missing from our offense:  The vertical game.  He opens the middle of the field even more where Burrow is so lethal (see how Jefferson got a lot of receptions...that could be Boyd).  I just don't see the Bengals running enough 12 personnel to make Pitts useful and in 11, I don't see him as much of a threat as Chase.  

[*ochocincos*]

(03-25-2021, 02:19 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Have you seen Chase's numbers on throws over 20 yards?  There are WRs that don't have those kind of numbers within 5 yards of the LOS.  I think he presents the better thing missing from our offense:  The vertical game.  He opens the middle of the field even more where Burrow is so lethal (see how Jefferson got a lot of receptions...that could be Boyd).  I just don't see the Bengals running enough 12 personnel to make Pitts useful and in 11, I don't see him as much of a threat as Chase.  

Going Chase or Pitts really is splitting hairs TBH.
I prefer Pitts, but I'd be satisfied with Chase.
Either would be a hell of a selection and arguably better than anyone other than Sewell.