Sewell vs Chase Civil War

[Amalone002]

Im not here to argue,  I'm here just state my opinion as well as my observations.

As some said in that video their are many good olineman in this draft so that makes it easy to pass on sewell. I say that because I don't beleive sewell is a for sure talent (like they said in the video as well). I would be in favor of that pick if he was a "can't miss prospect". Now some here might think he is, but the fact that some don't shows  he's not really can't miss.  Even draft evaluators have him from #2-17 (or somewhere in the teens). So I can't go sewell at #5 with that uncertainty, unless this was a draft with not many good olineman.

Also, every team has bad draft picks can't be scared to draft even though OL didn't work out in previous late rounds, and this year Jim turner isn't having any input.

I love chase,  feel he was the best WR in college 2 years ago easily. I'm not into combine stuff but I know he did good there. Although I'll be good with that pick, I'm higher on Tate than most so I don't feel its a huge need rd 1 (I really think his teamate Marshall will be close to as good).
Only reason I won't have a big problem with chase is the familiriarity with burrow

For me I'm on Pitts more as a "can't miss" prospect.   Bengals or any team for that matter (excluding cheifs and niners) can use Pitts as an instant weapon and nightmare for defenses. He is basically unguardable and nobody in the AFC north I feel can cover him. 

Wouldn't be mad at sewell but I have seen his tape as well and wasn't impressed, can he improve? Sure, but you don't take that at #5.

Again not trying to argue, if bengals take him fine, but just would rather have Pitts or chase before sewell. I'm also higher on Spain and the impact of pollack than most are as well. I feel we only need 1 G on the oline and depth, but I know others feel different but that's just me.

[BURROWorBUST]

Here's my opinion. I'm sure it'll matter.

This what the Bengals need to do.

Flip a coin.

Heads – Draft Sewell
Tails – Draft Chase

If the guy flipping the coin drops it – Draft Pitts.

If we can't decide who they should take, what makes us think they know who they should take?

Just flip a coin. Let fate decide. That way, if the guy doesn't work out, the FO can just blame the coin. Or the guy who dropped the damn coin. Call William Jackson III back to flip the coin. We hate him already anyway. Or maybe he'll redeem himself a little.

I don't know. This is hard.

[jwalker3853]

(04-02-2021, 12:30 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Here's an interesting question for the Sewell fans. If he is not there at #5 do you take Slater/other OL or do you take Pitts/Chase?

No trade down option.

Also to the Chase fans if Chase and Pitts are gone do you take Sewell or a different WR?

If Sewell is gone, I take Pitts over Chase.    While I like both players, I think Pitts has the most impact over Chase in the long term.   

If either Chase or Pitts are gone/there doesn't matter to me if Sewell is still on the board.   In my mind, the game is won/lost in the trenches and Sewell will help the team in so many other ways then a WR will.    He will contribute to helping keep Burrow upright and able to pass AND will help in the running game and getting Mixon going.    To me, the Sewell pick does more to help open up our offense then any other skill position outside of Burrow.    

[Whatever]

Here's an interesting take from Colts OL coach Kevin Mawae about shifting guys around positions on the OL. If Mawae sounds familiar, he was an 8 time All Pro C with the Jets.

“Not specifically about this team but just in general, it’s not as easy as everybody thinks it is,” Mawae said, via Mike Chappell of WXIN. “Everybody is like, ‘Just plug them in at guard.’ Well, that just doesn’t happen like that. I think there are unique tools and attributes that a guard has to have versus a tackle and a center, and just to plug and play is not the right way to go about it. You want to put the best five guys on the field talent-wise, but also you want to put the best five combination out there.”

So drafting Sewell and pushing him, Reiff, or Jonah to G may not be as effective as we think it will be.

[Burma]

(04-02-2021, 01:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: Here's an interesting take from Colts OL coach Kevin Mawae about shifting guys around positions on the OL.  If Mawae sounds familiar, he was an 8 time All Pro C with the Jets.

“Not specifically about this team but just in general, it’s not as easy as everybody thinks it is,” Mawae said, via Mike Chappell of WXIN. “Everybody is like, ‘Just plug them in at guard.’ Well, that just doesn’t happen like that. I think there are unique tools and attributes that a guard has to have versus a tackle and a center, and just to plug and play is not the right way to go about it. You want to put the best five guys on the field talent-wise, but also you want to put the best five combination out there.”

So drafting Sewell and pushing him, Reiff, or Jonah to G may not be as effective as we think it will be.

That echoes this article I was reading yesterday where retired NFL lineman Geoff Schwartz was talking about this.

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/3/29/18287117/nfl-mailbag-offensive-linemen-switch-playoffs-2019-predictions

Quote:What is the most difficult position switch for an offensive lineman to make on the O-line that the majority of people think is easy? (ex: OT to OG or LT to RT etc) — @pmeredith77


I get asked this question more than any other. The majority of people believe switching positions is easy because they’ve never done it before. Moving from side to side is easy for some, but most often, it takes a while to adjust. In the immortal words of Josh Sitton, switching from one side to the other is “like wiping your ass with the other hand.”
Everything is awkward and different. I had to switch from the right side to the left side (LG) a couple times in my career. It always went bad. ALWAYS. I was never comfortable at left guard. I’d always punch like I was at right tackle and when I was being bull-rushed, I’d switch my stagger to anchor the bull like a right guard, thus allowing myself to get beat inside.
According to social media, switching from tackle to guard is the “easy” solution for a tackle who’s struggling. Not so fast my friend. If an offensive tackle has good hands, generally has good movement skills but might lack some foot quickness to play tackle, then moving inside could be productive. If an offensive tackle is struggling with his strike and punch location, plus has bad feet, then moving inside is a no-go. Things happen fast at guard. Your hands must be ready for action now. And if you miss with your hands, your base better be good so you’re able to recover.
So in short, moving a struggling OT to OG isn’t easy, and it’s rarely the solution.

[Joelist]

And this is why someone like Alijah Vera Tucker is a better pick on OL FOR US. He is an actual Guard and far and away the best one in the class.

[tms]

I think we overstate the so-called "depth" of this OL class. We assume that these guys will be available later. That is not true. By passing on Sewell, we are also passing on RSlater, CDarrisaw, TJenkins, AVT and a few others, because unless we trade down there's no way to get them either. Likewise, there promises to be a run on WR early. According to the current major mocks at PFF, PFN, TDN, NFLN, Kiper, McShay, I have 8-10 OL projected to go by 38 (JMayfield, CHumphrey, ALeatherwood on the brink) and 7-9 WR (KToney, TMarshall and EMoore).

Short of someone slipping through the cracks, we're really looking at guys like LEichenberg-JCarman-SCosmi or DBrown-TWallace-AR St Brown.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, it's just that it is what it is.

[Burma]

Finally got around to watching this and had to marvel at Tony Pike forcefully asking "Are you able to put the future of your franchise, day 1, on a on a guy that your saying 'I hope he's the guy'" when the guys you do have let the future of your franchise get a shredded knee.

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-01-2021, 03:14 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: This is the root of the problem and you nailed it.

There will be times the Bengals face a defense with a solid pass rush and an outstanding secondary. That’s the modern NFL. In cases like this, the Bengals need to be able to run the ball to move the chains.  Zac Taylor needs to understand this is the AFC North, not the NFC West.

To answer the question about Frank Pollock and Billy Price we need to go back to 2018.  Before finishing the season badly, the Bengals started out 4-1 with some quality offensive line play before Billy Price was injured.

Well, he was injured after 19 snaps in game 2, but the weird thing is, his rookie year he was graded as a much better pass blocker than run blocker. Lately, it's been just the opposite. 

I'd have to think that's due to Pollack. We'll see, fo sho. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-01-2021, 03:37 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Yeah thanks for the reminder on that. I think a lot of Price haters should take this into account. I had forgotten. All I know is Price didnt work out well under Turner at G, but when he played C last season I actually thought he looked better than Hopkins. He played a really good game, but PFF gave him a hilariously biased 18.6 pass blocking grade despite Burrow not even getting sacked that game. Gio averaged over 4ypc and so did Perine. Price was a big part of that. For all we know, Price under Pollack could be the Price we thought we were getting when drafting him. He could be the C we've been wanting. Is hard to tell because we were stuck with Turner for 2 years and he was terrible. 

Sorry, but he simply wasn't as good at passpro as people keep "remembering". He routinely was getting beat but most of the time, fortunately, it didn't result in Burrow getting hit. He was definitely pushing people around in the run game though. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-01-2021, 09:35 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: they're distracted by Joe Burrow

he's the golden boy now, so anything he says, some fans will just eat up with no questions asked.

if Burrow says he'd like his friend to play in cincinnati, then people start repeating what Burrow says

the bengals reddit page is just a giant echo chamber. It's heavy one sided in favor of picking Chase

You have to ask yourself, are some of these fans actually bengals fans, or do they just play fantasy football?

or maybe they just read pff all day. Idk. 

Like you said, most bengals fans should want some form of offensive line in the first round.

So you bash other places that do the work but then you post something as ignorant as this. 

Certain players that are mentioned in the 2nd round are there because of the depth of Oline this year. In any other year, they'd be rated higher. This isn't quantum physics. The guys being mentioned in the 2nd round are certainly risks, in the same way any player is a risk but comparably speaking, they're better than any other random year where a normal number of good offensive linemen would have them being picked earlier than they're going to be picked this year. 

"Settling" on a 2nd round OG or swing type lineman this year isn't ignoring the offensive line. It's trying to maximize the talent that's available. 

The same thing can be said for picking Sewell/Slater in rd 1 and then picking any number of a handful of guys that will be there at WR in rd 2. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-01-2021, 10:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: As I’ve said a million times I’ll be quite happy with Sewell. I’m just making the argument for why they might not go in that direction. I’m going to be good with either choice though (or Pitts). It’s you guys on the other side that are choosing to be miserable if you don’t get exactly what you want. I just wish the guys who are being super condescending and talking about shiny toys and how stupid everyone that disagrees with them are would be a little more open minded.

I think i read somewhere, something about "it's useless to debate these folks". 

Or something...

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-01-2021, 10:45 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I am trying to not be condescending or shitty, I just can't understand why people wouldn't want the best player at the biggest position of need. It baffles me.

I got very frustrated at one point, took a step away and have come back and still stand on the belief that Sewell is the right choice, but I'm not trying to be a dick to people who like Chase. Like I said in the thread I just started, no one is going to change their mind based on anything someone post on here at this point. So unless Sewell absolutely tanks his Pro Day, the board will remain divided.

Reality is this, Sewell, Chase, Pitts... really doesn't matter. Tobin is still here, Taylor is still here and the Brown family still owns the team. They could get Sewell, Chase, and Pitts some how and they'd still under perform with those clowns in charge.

Oh... there is another name to add to the list of guys I'd take in round 2/3 and would have no issue with Chase or Pitts in one. The Clemson homer in me wants Carman... just can't figure out if he is going in round 2 or 3. He isn't a tackle in the NFL, but he'll be a monster guard. Oh... and he grew up in Cincinnati.. well Fairfield Ohio.

Haven't read far enough to know if this has been asked. So, you wouldn't want Chase if you could get Carman in the 2nd?

[Murdock2420]

(04-02-2021, 05:11 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Haven't read far enough to know if this has been asked. So, you wouldn't want Chase if you could get Carman in the 2nd?

Because there is no guarantee the guy there in round 2 is one we want. What happens if round 2 options are Jenkins (not a fit), Leatherwood (just not impressed) and the Stanford kid that was hurt and then sat out.. never seen what he will be after the injury.

If Vera Tucker, and Carman and Cosmi and Slater, and Sewell and Darrisaw all go in round 1 and top 5 in round 2, there isn't really a guy that jumps out the way Sewell does.

I get there is a chance we don't see any of Chase, Waddle, Smith, Rondale Moore, Toney, Bateman, Elijah Moore or Marshall Jr at 38 (although I believe one more likely 2 of them makes it to 38) and if we miss on all those guys we have Dyami Brown or Tylan Wallace still around.




Long story short in all this Faulk, is if we have to gamble on a position group for next season, it's better to gamble on the WR group with a later pick then it is to gamble on the OL group.

Jonah Williams, is an unknown. Played 10 games in 2 years. That isn't enough to say he is the answer at LT.

Reiff - Willing to move to guard. Missed time with a foot injury and is on a 1 year deal. So, can upgrade this spot.

XSF - Injured last 3 years. Started a total of 17 games over the last 3 years. What do you have here?

Spain - Solid contributor. Not a bad piece, not a great piece. He is at the Auden Tate level of player.

Hopkins - Torn ACL. Was looking improved and solid, we have no clue how he'll look week 1.


Now, over at WR you have Higgins (2nd rounder and a really good WR) plus Boyd (2nd rounder and has shown to be a great slot WR). Then you have Tate (solid piece, nothing special but solid) and then Thomas (below average, but can serve as a 4th or 5th option)


Looking at the 2 groups as they stand... which group would you gamble on? Sewell and Chase are both sure fire, going to be good pros. Chase comes in and he is a good WR, possibly the best WR on the team (let's see how Higgins develops).  Sewell comes in and is the best OL on the team (unless Williams magically plays a full season and takes a huge step forward). 

I'm just not comfortable hoping we find the right fit in round 2 for the OL when you have the perfect option sitting there at 5. 

For WR, you need a guy that can stretch the field and catch, that's it. That skill set is available round 2, 3, and 4.

It's not a dislike of Chase, it is just the absolute reality that you have the worst position group on the team in the OL and a chance to plug in the perfect solution for it at 5 and you want to gamble that you find the same solution in round 2?? No thanks...

There will be another Chase and another Sewell next year, I want to increase the length of Burrow's career. Take the OL now, get the top skill guy in 2022. (Chris Olave, Garret Wilson, Justyn Ross, Burks... next year is so loaded at WR it's silly.)

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-02-2021, 12:07 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Hey fellas, Bodine was actually decent. An average starting center

pff told me so

Check your eyes

Below average. Every year.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-02-2021, 01:02 AM)Whatever Wrote: CBS had Jonah at 3, and they were the go to at that time.  There was a ton of hype about Jonah, but it may not have seemed that way around here because there was no way he was supposed to fall to us, whereas it seems likely Sewell will make it to us.

Whether a pick is a hit or a whiff very much matters based on where they're drafted.  I don't think anybody is advocating waiting until round 4 to draft an OL.  Pretty much everyone that wants Chase or Pitts wants OL in 2 and again in 3 or 4.  

Fair point, there.  Completely blanked on Fisher.

Never knew of CBS as a go-to site for anything, really. I've always used WalterFootball myself, and there are certainly more credible draft resources than CBS.

I don't want a guy who is "semi-decent for a 2nd rounder" either. If you get an average starter in the 2nd, that's a hit. I want better than average up front. Especially considering WR is clearly a lesser need then OL. We've hit on more WR's in later rounds than OL anyway.

Chad Johnson
TJ Houshmandzadeh
Chris Henry
Jordan Shipley (prior to injury)
Tee Higgins
Tyler Boyd
Marvin Jones
Mo Sanu

(04-02-2021, 01:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: Here's an interesting take from Colts OL coach Kevin Mawae about shifting guys around positions on the OL.  If Mawae sounds familiar, he was an 8 time All Pro C with the Jets.

“Not specifically about this team but just in general, it’s not as easy as everybody thinks it is,” Mawae said, via Mike Chappell of WXIN. “Everybody is like, ‘Just plug them in at guard.’ Well, that just doesn’t happen like that. I think there are unique tools and attributes that a guard has to have versus a tackle and a center, and just to plug and play is not the right way to go about it. You want to put the best five guys on the field talent-wise, but also you want to put the best five combination out there.”

So drafting Sewell and pushing him, Reiff, or Jonah to G may not be as effective as we think it will be.

Reiff has said he'll play any position. I doubt he'd say such a thing if he viewed it as some kind of daunting task.

[bengaloo]

(04-02-2021, 04:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Sorry, but he simply wasn't as good at passpro as people keep "remembering". He routinely was getting beat but most of the time, fortunately, it didn't result in Burrow getting hit. He was definitely pushing people around in the run game though. 

No need to be sorry. I have the game DVR'd and have watched it a bunch of times, specifically to watch the OL. It was the first game Price played C in a couple years and also the first time we saw Adeniji and Spain, so it was always of interest to me. It was also an excellent game! 

We can refresh some memories right here though. I encourage all Bengal fans to watch this game and focus in on Price and see if he really routinely gets beat in pass pro. Other than a bad snap and couple iffy plays he did well especially for not playing C in a long time. I dont mind giving credit where its due. He did get routinely beat as a G. But Price earned some credit here playing C for the first time in a long time, and PFF lost some by giving him a dismal 18 pass pro grade lol. The proof is in the pudding. 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7x7rgc

[Whatever]

(04-02-2021, 06:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Never knew of CBS as a go-to site for anything, really. I've always used WalterFootball myself, and there are certainly more credible draft resources than CBS.

I don't want a guy who is "semi-decent for a 2nd rounder" either. If you get an average starter in the 2nd, that's a hit. I want better than average up front. Especially considering WR is clearly a lesser need then OL. We've hit on more WR's in later rounds than OL anyway.

Chad Johnson
TJ Houshmandzadeh
Chris Henry
Jordan Shipley (prior to injury)
Tee Higgins
Tyler Boyd
Marvin Jones
Mo Sanu


Reiff has said he'll play any position. I doubt he'd say such a thing if he viewed it as some kind of daunting task.

I don't consider WalterFootball credible after an email exchange about them mocking LeGarrett Blount to the Bengals in the 2nd.

Is OL a bigger need than WR?  We have 4 non PS WR's right now and Auden Tate is penciled in as a starter right now compared to a full depth chart at OL.

Shipley, Henry, and Sanu each had 1 600+ yard season here.  And you're saying Bodine was a whiff for being an average starter for 4 years.  You can skew draft results however you want if you raise the bar for one group high enough and drop it low enough for the other.  You also went back way further for a lot of those WR's than you did for OL.  

I'm sure Reiff will start anywhere you tell him because he's on a one year deal and needs to play to get paid next year.  Whether he plays up to expectations if you move him to G is an entirely different matter, and that's what Mawae was talking about.

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-02-2021, 05:39 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Because there is no guarantee the guy there in round 2 is one we want. What happens if round 2 options are Jenkins (not a fit), Leatherwood (just not impressed) and the Stanford kid that was hurt and then sat out.. never seen what he will be after the injury.

If Vera Tucker, and Carman and Cosmi and Slater, and Sewell and Darrisaw all go in round 1 and top 5 in round 2, there isn't really a guy that jumps out the way Sewell does.

I get there is a chance we don't see any of Chase, Waddle, Smith, Rondale Moore, Toney, Bateman, Elijah Moore or Marshall Jr at 38 (although I believe one more likely 2 of them makes it to 38) and if we miss on all those guys we have Dyami Brown or Tylan Wallace still around.




Long story short in all this Faulk, is if we have to gamble on a position group for next season, it's better to gamble on the WR group with a later pick then it is to gamble on the OL group.

Jonah Williams, is an unknown. Played 10 games in 2 years. That isn't enough to say he is the answer at LT.

Reiff - Willing to move to guard. Missed time with a foot injury and is on a 1 year deal. So, can upgrade this spot.

XSF - Injured last 3 years. Started a total of 17 games over the last 3 years. What do you have here?

Spain - Solid contributor. Not a bad piece, not a great piece. He is at the Auden Tate level of player.

Hopkins - Torn ACL. Was looking improved and solid, we have no clue how he'll look week 1.


Now, over at WR you have Higgins (2nd rounder and a really good WR) plus Boyd (2nd rounder and has shown to be a great slot WR). Then you have Tate (solid piece, nothing special but solid) and then Thomas (below average, but can serve as a 4th or 5th option)


Looking at the 2 groups as they stand... which group would you gamble on? Sewell and Chase are both sure fire, going to be good pros. Chase comes in and he is a good WR, possibly the best WR on the team (let's see how Higgins develops).  Sewell comes in and is the best OL on the team (unless Williams magically plays a full season and takes a huge step forward). 

I'm just not comfortable hoping we find the right fit in round 2 for the OL when you have the perfect option sitting there at 5. 

For WR, you need a guy that can stretch the field and catch, that's it. That skill set is available round 2, 3, and 4.

It's not a dislike of Chase, it is just the absolute reality that you have the worst position group on the team in the OL and a chance to plug in the perfect solution for it at 5 and you want to gamble that you find the same solution in round 2?? No thanks...

There will be another Chase and another Sewell next year, I want to increase the length of Burrow's career. Take the OL now, get the top skill guy in 2022. (Chris Olave, Garret Wilson, Justyn Ross, Burks... next year is so loaded at WR it's silly.)

The smart money is on Sewell, then a WR in the 2nd, or even double dip and then WR in the 3rd. 

It's just hard to pass up those shiny toys, man.

[Frank Booth]

(04-02-2021, 07:27 PM)Whatever Wrote: And you're saying Bodine was a whiff for being an average starter for 4 years.  

Everyone here is laughing at you.