More Schein Love

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-27-2021, 10:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Sigh...

I said he would be the perfect back up QB because that would be his ideal role. He was a starter for a decade, but he should not have been. Especially not an unopposed starter. If they drafted players or signed players to compete with him and he beat them out, fair enough but we never even tried.

The Dalton Line is basically exactly how I felt about him. He was the defining mark. If you're better than Dalton, you deserve to be a starting QB. If you're worse, you need to be replaced. He sat in that limbo for his entire career, except for 2016 when people thought he finally "turned the corner," despite all evidence that players don't magically change from an average starter to an elite starter after 6 years in the NFL. Obviously, we were all promptly shown that was not the case in 2016 and beyond.

I see Dalton the same way I see Ryan Fitzpatrick. He'd be an asset to just about any team in the NFL, but you should have a plan other than starting him with no competition for the role.

As for 2015's talent, Eifert, Green, Jones and Sanu was one of the most potent receiving corps in the NFL that year, regardless of what Sanu or Eifert did the following years and their offensive line had Whitworth, Zeitler, Boling and Smith, all of whom were above average or better (with Whitworth being elite) at their position. The offense was absolutely stacked in 2015.

Not to mention the defense that was 2nd in the NFL in points allowed per game.

Meh....for 5 years, and part of six (remember the first of the year when we gave up 7 sacks at NYJ and still won? Nearly 400 yds that day?), he was pretty good. By the end of 6 after the battering he took, he was seeing/feeling/hearing ghosts. He continued to get pummeled. Gee, I wonder what was different during the first 5, vs the last 4? Hmmm ......you gave a hint at the end of your post. It had zero to do with skill players....and it's the same reason our all world #1OA got pummeled in year 1.  

[Tony]

Great..... Dalton BS again.... This is embarrassing to still be bringing this guy up.... He's gone... Move on...

[Shake n Blake]

(05-27-2021, 10:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Sigh...

I said he would be the perfect back up QB because that would be his ideal role. He was a starter for a decade, but he should not have been. Especially not an unopposed starter. If they drafted players or signed players to compete with him and he beat them out, fair enough but we never even tried.

The Dalton Line is basically exactly how I felt about him. He was the defining mark. If you're better than Dalton, you deserve to be a starting QB. If you're worse, you need to be replaced. He sat in that limbo for his entire career, except for 2016 when people thought he finally "turned the corner," despite all evidence that players don't magically change from an average starter to an elite starter after 6 years in the NFL. Obviously, we were all promptly shown that was not the case in 2016 and beyond.

I see Dalton the same way I see Ryan Fitzpatrick. He'd be an asset to just about any team in the NFL, but you should have a plan other than starting him with no competition for the role.

As for 2015's talent, Eifert, Green, Jones and Sanu was one of the most potent receiving corps in the NFL that year, regardless of what Sanu or Eifert did the following years and their offensive line had Whitworth, Zeitler, Boling and Smith, all of whom were above average or better (with Whitworth being elite) at their position. The offense was absolutely stacked in 2015.

Not to mention the defense that was 2nd in the NFL in points allowed per game.

1. The Dalton line was garbage logic. How many years did a QB need to be "worse than Dalton" in order to be replaced? Many QBs that were considered better than Dalton finished beneath him (using passer rating) in various years.

Brady was underneath Dalton at least twice. Stafford. Cam Newton. Andrew Luck for most of his career. Should they have been replaced? Or can we assume that Dalton also finished behind some QBs that he was better than?

2. You didn't address 90% of my points. If Burrow has a strong year, are you going to assign all the credit to his weapons, which are clearly better than any year with Dalton? How was Dalton able to produce 3 other top 15 seasons with an overall poor supporting cast?

3. Dalton is not Ryan Fitzpatrick. His career rating is almost 6 points higher than Fitzpatrick's. Not to mention Ryan has never made the playoffs. The fact that you equate the two is telling.

4. The offense was not "absolutely stacked" in 2015, as I've already shown. Anyways, Dalton produced at an MVP level that year, so I don't see how that can be used against him regardless. Again, if Burrow produces this year, should we give him no credit?

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-28-2021, 08:00 AM)Tony Wrote: Great..... Dalton BS again.... This is embarrassing to still be bringing this guy up.... He's gone... Move on...

I’m having some regrets about creating this thread seeing what it has become! Jk, I love a good Dalton debate.

[Shake n Blake]

I really wish we could all see Dalton for what he was: an average starting QB who had good moments and bad. Who could be upgraded, but was also someone you could win with on a good team.

Similar caliber to Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco, Cam Newton, Derek Carr.

If there wasn't guys out here claiming Dalton was trash, a backup, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jon Kitna, CFL caliber, etc...then there would've never been any "Dalton defenders".

[Shake n Blake]

(05-28-2021, 01:22 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I’m having some regrets about creating this thread seeing what it has become! Jk, I love a good Dalton debate.

Sincere apologies. Let's try to get it back on track.

I like hearing the positivity, but I was predicting the Steelers would fall off 5 years ago. It just never seems to happen. They always trim cap and adjust. I do think they have the worst QB in the division now, but it's not like Ben is bad.

It's a bold take from Schein, and I'd love nothing more than for the Steelers' late season decline continued into this year, but I just can't predict them having less than 9 wins. I have us with 5-6 wins.

[Frank Booth]

(05-28-2021, 01:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I really wish we could all see Dalton for what he was: an average starting QB who had good moments and bad. Who could be upgraded, but was also someone you could win with on a good team.

Similar caliber to Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco, Cam Newton, Derek Carr.

If there wasn't guys out here claiming Dalton was trash, a backup, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jon Kitna, CFL caliber, etc...then there would've never been any "Dalton defenders".

pretty much

[BFritz21]

NFL.com’s Adam Schein predicts that the Bengals will win more games than the Steelers!

He mentions how seeing Burrow take the field in OTAs is all that he needed to see to know that we'll bounce back this year!  Pairing him with Chase to regain their college form will make something special, like I've been saying all-along!

Quote:Joe Burrow took the field at Bengals workouts on Tuesday. That’s all I needed to see. Burrow will hit the ground running with old LSU teammate Ja’Marr Chase. This connection was special in that 2019 national championship run — I can’t wait to see these two make sweet music together once again

He makes notes of our other offensive weapons in Higgins and Boyd, which I have mentioned could give us one of the best receiving groups in the league, and also how Mixon should bounce back and have a big year!

Quote:Joe Burrow took the field at Bengals workouts on Tuesday. That’s all I needed to see. Burrow will hit the ground running with old LSU teammate Ja’Marr Chase. This connection was special in that 2019 national championship run — I can’t wait to see these two make sweet music together once again

I keep mentioning all of that but that we can't do anything if our offensive line can't open holes for Mixon and give Burrow time to throw, but he mentions that the line looks better on paper:

Quote:Like colleague Gregg Rosenthal said, the offensive line looks better on paper than you think

On paper doesn't always translate to the field and that still scares the shit out of me, but it does give me a bit more faith that "experts" are expressing faith.

He says the defense is a question mark, but we could have such a good offense that we could win some shootouts:

Quote:Lou Anarumo’s defense remains a big question mark — with a bunch of notable losses and gains in free agency — but the offense has the kind of firepower to win some shootouts.

I think the rookie additions and the switch to a 3-4 could help us get after the opposing quarterback and help win some shootouts by stopping the other team.

Then he mentions the Steelers........

Quote:All in all, I think the arrow is pointing up in Cincy. Meanwhile, in Pittsburgh ...

He mentions how Big Ben fell off at the end of the year, how Ben's aging (39), and how Pittsburgh hit a wall when Ben did after starting 11-0:

Quote:The Steelers still have a Hall of Fame quarterback in Ben Roethlisberger, but he’s not Benjamin Button. Now 39 years old, Big Ben clearly hit a wall down the stretch last year. So did Pittsburgh. From 11-0 to first-round playoff exit.

Their line was always a problem but Ben could shake off tackles and extend plays, which his age looks like it's preventing him from doing that in the same way that he used to.  It also says how Harris is a stud runner, but he needs blocking because he's not Barry Sanders:

Quote:And I don’t see the trend reversing for the better in 2021. While first-round pick Najee Harris is a stud runner, the offensive line remains problematic.

Losing pieces on defense will also hurt them, especially since they lost one piece to us:

Quote:The defense lost Bud Dupree (who’d become a fabulous edge-rushing complement to T.J. Watt) and Mike Hilton (the stud slot corner who just so happened to relocate to Cincy). And it sure doesn’t help that the aging Steelers drew the NFL’s toughest strength of schedule.

The rest of the article mentions how Burrow is ascending and Ben is descending!

Here's the rest, which is just more pointing to us taking the next step over them!

Quote:The thing in the NFL is the quarterback is such an important piece to the team. Of course one man can’t do it all, but there is a reason the teams that seem to always be contending have the best quarterbacks.

At the root of Schein’s argument is Ben Roethlisberger is over the hill while Joe Burrow is ascending. That is pretty easily shown by how terribly Pittsburgh’s 2020 season fell apart on the shoulders of Roethlisberger, which included an upset via the Bengals led by Ryan Finley on Monday Night Football.

There was a time where the Steelers seemed untouchable, but this past season showed that their seemingly endless factory of talent is running a bit dry. JuJu Smith-Schuster failed to step in and replace Antonio Brown’s production, which sent a ripple effect across the offense. Suddenly, these receivers weren’t only facing single coverage, and Roethlisberger’s job got that much harder.

Meanwhile, you could see Burrow and this offense starting to click. We even saw Tee Higgins finish the season with some strong performances with Brandon Allen taking snaps.

Now with Ja’Marr Chase coming in to fix on of the Bengals biggest issues from last season (the deep passing game), the only real limit is how quickly he and former college teammate Burrow pick back up that connection.

It also helps that the Steelers didn’t have a strong offseason. They saw key players walk away, and they didn’t really go out and replace them. They also didn’t help rebuild their offensive line that was a major issue in 2020. Najee Harris seems like a great guy, but Bengals fans know what it is like to watch a good running back try and create behind a struggling offensive line that can’t open holes.

It is exciting to see another national writer speak out in support of the Bengals, which seems to becoming more of a popular thing to do. The day will come soon that this won’t be seen as a bold prediction, and it will just become the expectation with Burrow leading the way.

My bold statement would be that if Burrow wasn’t coming off a major knee injury that people wouldn’t even think this was a bold take by Schein.

It's going to be a hell of a year!

[*Nately120*]

Man, there goes our strategy of flying under radar.

[*michaelsean*]

Aim high!!!

[George Cantstandya]

I don't think that would be a huge surprise. Especially if the Steelers play like the did at the end of last year. Their O-line is suspect now, much like the Bengals. Their defense though is still very strong IMO. Ben certainly seems to be on the decline. So how well the Bengals line up against the Steelers will depend on how much the Bengals improved the O-line and defense. Honestly I think the Bengals have more to worry about when it comes to the Browns and Ravens. I would not be content just being better than the Steelers this year. I know many fans here hate them but being better than a team that may be on the decline should not be the ultimate goal this season.

[Shake n Blake]

This is really the best case scenario. We are stacked with weapons on offense. Burrow looks like the real deal. We added some pieces to the line, although not as much as we probably should've. We swapped a lot of players on defense, although I'd say we didn't improve THAT much there.

I think this team - with even an average coaching staff - could win 9-10 games. I'm just not sold on the staff, and the o-line has too many if's for my liking. "If" Jonah is healthy. "If" Carman can be a good starter right away. "If" Spain can regain form. Etc.

As far as the Steelers are concerned, they did fall apart hard at the end, and we have to place our hope that this continues. But it's the Steelers. It seems like they will never go away...and we can't just erase the fact they started 11-0 last year.

We look at 2015 as a mythic season. We started 8-0 and lost in the first round. We can hope that they follow our path and tank after that, but again...it's the Steelers.

[Hammerstripes]

Switch to the 3-4. LOL.

[bengaloo]

I just hope we beat the Stealers twice this season. I think we can. I worry more about Cleveland and Baltimore than I do the Stealers. Hoping they finish last in the AFCN.

[*bfine32*]

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-More-Schein-Love

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-28-2021, 04:07 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: I don't think that would be a huge surprise.  Especially if the Steelers play like the did at the end of last year.  Their O-line is suspect now, much like the Bengals.  Their defense though is still very strong IMO.  Ben certainly seems to be on the decline.  So how well the Bengals line up against the Steelers will depend on how much the Bengals improved the O-line and defense.   Honestly I think the Bengals have more to worry about when it comes to the Browns and Ravens.   I would not be content just being better than the Steelers this year.   I know many fans here hate them but being better than a team that may be on the decline should not be the ultimate goal this season.

Completely agree, we need to make the Steelers the doormat and compete with the Ravens. We can compete with the Stains as we 
shown last year, but the Ravens own us at the moment.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(05-28-2021, 01:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I really wish we could all see Dalton for what he was: an average starting QB who had good moments and bad. Who could be upgraded, but was also someone you could win with on a good team.

Similar caliber to Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco, Cam Newton, Derek Carr.

If there wasn't guys out here claiming Dalton was trash, a backup, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jon Kitna, CFL caliber, etc...then there would've never been any "Dalton defenders".

(05-28-2021, 01:35 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: pretty much

Yyyyyyyep! The Bengals upgraded at QB and what did it get them? 2 wins with Burrow and Joe Mixon more or less won one of those games. I've said it before, QB wasn't even the 10th biggest problem with this team when they still had the #1 overall pick. Should have traded down more than once and let Burrow go to a team that can take care of him.

[CJD]

(05-28-2021, 01:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. The Dalton line was garbage logic. How many years did a QB need to be "worse than Dalton" in order to be replaced? Many QBs that were considered better than Dalton finished beneath him (using passer rating) in various years.

Brady was underneath Dalton at least twice. Stafford. Cam Newton. Andrew Luck for most of his career. Should they have been replaced? Or can we assume that Dalton also finished behind some QBs that he was better than?

2. You didn't address 90% of my points. If Burrow has a strong year, are you going to assign all the credit to his weapons, which are clearly better than any year with Dalton? How was Dalton able to produce 3 other top 15 seasons with an overall poor supporting cast?  

3. Dalton is not Ryan Fitzpatrick. His career rating is almost 6 points higher than Fitzpatrick's. Not to mention Ryan has never made the playoffs. The fact that you equate the two is telling.

4. The offense was not "absolutely stacked" in 2015, as I've already shown. Anyways, Dalton produced at an MVP level that year, so I don't see how that can be used against him regardless. Again, if Burrow produces this year, should we give him no credit?

1. K. That's your opinion. I think the Dalton line was fine. All you're doing is showing that QB rating is not the end all be all for ranking QBs, which is relevant to your whole "top 15" QB comment. Speaking of which...

2. You made 1 point that Dalton was a top 15 QB 4 of 5 years early in his career (no mention of 2017 to 2019. I'm sure that was an honest oversight). You used this as evidence that he wasn't average or worse for most of his career. I didn't respond to this because I felt explaining what he was as I did would better indicate his level of talent. But fine I'll directly address it. 

You don't sit on your laurels with a top 15 QB. Especially with his penchant to totally bomb in prime time and playoff games. Top 15 is also pretty much in the realm of average, in my opinion so you didn't really disprove my point so I'm sorry that I didn't feel the need to respond to it. If perfectly average is 16, being ever so slightly better than that does not make me feel any different about him. He was a fine QB that should have been upgraded.

3. It is telling of how I feel about Dalton, yes. 

4. You did not show that. We had an elite oline, an elite top 2 WRs, an elite TE and a very good slot WR. it's okay to admit that 2015 was a really good team. Dalton won't kick you out of his fan club for thinking so. 

[bengaloo]

I forgot to add

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-28-2021, 05:37 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I forgot to add

Hard not to like Finley there LMAO!!!