More Schein Love

[bengaloo]

(05-28-2021, 05:38 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Hard not to like Finley there LMAO!!!

No doubt! I love that pic. Loved the beatdown we gave them on MNF. I think its the first of many coming right away. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-28-2021, 05:39 PM)bengaloo Wrote: No doubt! I love that pic. Loved the beatdown we gave them on MNF. I think its the first of many coming right away. 

It is like a Gary Busey smile LMAO!!!

[*bengalfan74*]

I mean it wouldn't blow me away.

[*Go Cards*]

Think Bengals are better than steelers this year too.

Yet think the steelers will stink this season as well, so not sure what that actually says.

But it will make me happy if we whip them twice and finish ahead of them.

[Shake n Blake]

Let's try to keep this thread somewhat on track and not talk about the OP as a person...pretty please?

FWIW, I will say I like our roster better than Pittsburgh's...and our fans are way less derpy.

[BFritz21]

(05-28-2021, 10:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Let's try to keep this thread somewhat on track and not talk about the OP as a person...pretty please?

FWIW, I will say I like our roster better than Pittsburgh's...and our fans are way less derpy.

I appreciate it but..........


Some people on this board have proven that they'll hate just to hate, even if I'm right!

I think we have some talent on our roster, but, of course, the national media won't recognize it as anything special.  We've just gotta keep building as a team and maybe some good veteran offensive linemen will get cut and we'll be able to put together a solid line, which would make us contenders, IMCO.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-28-2021, 05:33 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: 1. K. That's your opinion. I think the Dalton line was fine. All you're doing is showing that QB rating is not the end all be all for ranking QBs, which is relevant to your whole "top 15" QB comment. Speaking of which...

2. You made 1 point that Dalton was a top 15 QB 4 of 5 years early in his career (no mention of 2017 to 2019. I'm sure that was an honest oversight). You used this as evidence that he wasn't average or worse for most of his career. I didn't respond to this because I felt explaining what he was as I did would better indicate his level of talent. But fine I'll directly address it. 

You don't sit on your laurels with a top 15 QB. Especially with his penchant to totally bomb in prime time and playoff games. Top 15 is also pretty much in the realm of average, in my opinion so you didn't really disprove my point so I'm sorry that I didn't feel the need to respond to it. If perfectly average is 16, being ever so slightly better than that does not make me feel any different about him. He was a fine QB that should have been upgraded.

3. It is telling of how I feel about Dalton, yes. 

4. You did not show that. We had an elite oline, an elite top 2 WRs, an elite TE and a very good slot WR. it's okay to admit that 2015 was a really good team. Dalton won't kick you out of his fan club for thinking so. 

1. Well what metric do you prefer to settle a QB ranking debate? Because we can't just go off the ol' eye test when our opinions are so different.

2. I initially stated that Dalton finished top 15 in passer rating in 4 out of 5 years from 2012 to 2016. The reason I used this time frame is because - obviously - this was the prime of Dalton's career. 2017 to 2019 aren't included because we all know Dalton tailed off at the end of his career, as the team fell apart around him, and he got beaten up and aged.

You said Dalton was a "average to below average QB his entire career". So...I used that 5 year stretch to disprove that statement.

3. Exactly. How you feel about Dalton doesnt match reality. The stats and facts show a significant gap between Dalton and Fitzpatrick, and even most Dalton haters would admit he's better than Fitz.

4. We had elite starting WRs. Was Eifert really an elite TE? 615 yards in his best season, IIRC. Run game sucked, which you conveniently ignore. That's not elite, sorry dude. Not about fan clubs, it's about dealing in facts and reality.

It was good, but also vastly overrated.

[Stewy]

(05-28-2021, 01:22 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I’m having some regrets about creating this thread seeing what it has become! Jk, I love a good Dalton debate.

you're a sick sick man

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(05-27-2021, 09:05 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: His first 6 years the Bengals had a 56-35-2 record, went to the playoffs 5 times, and Dalton was a Pro Bowler 3 times.

If you're baffled then that's a problem with your memory or how you're choosing to remember that time. 

You might point to the fact that he didn't win a single game out of his 4 playoff games, but I would pin that problem more on Marvin than Andy. Marvin had 4 different QBs in playoff games and all of them sucked and lost. 1 or maybe 2 QBs? Might be the QBs. 4 QBs? There's something more.

This is an excellent post. The lack of playoff success from 2011 through 2015 was a team effort. While Kitna, Palmer, Dalton, and McCarron definitely farted their way through playoff appearances, the entire team pooped the bed in the postseason. I always said Marvin Lewis was like Moses: He could get the team to borders of the Promised Land but never enter it.

Also, we need to separate the Dalton Era into two periods: Dalton With Weapons and Dalton Without Weapons. The first period comprises 2011-2015 and the second period covers 2016-2019. During the first, one of the greatest weapons the Bengals had was a solid defense under Mike Zimmer and Paul Guenther who could hold a lead into the fourth quarter.

Also, Andy Dalton had better offensive line play, a better run game, and more receivers who could actually run routes and catch from 2011-2015. It was much more effective throwing to a healthy AJ Green, Jerome Simpson, Marvin Jones, Tyler Eifert, Mohamed Sanu, and Jermaine Gresham.

After 2015 things changed in Cincinnati and the Bengals haven’t had a winning season since.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(05-28-2021, 04:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Aim high!!!

...unless you’re an offensive lineman.

[muskiesfan]

I will be shocked if the Bengals win more games than the Steelers this season. Make no mistake, I want it to happen. Having the Steelers looking up at us from the cellar would be great!

I just don't see it. regardless of the roster they are light years better at coaching. I can't stand Tomlin, but he coaches circles around Taylor. That is part of why you can never count them out. I hope that I have to eat a huge serving of crow after the season. I really, really do. I still think the Bengals finish dead last in the division this coming season.

[BFritz21]

(05-30-2021, 11:53 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: I will be shocked if the Bengals win more games than the Steelers this season. Make no mistake, I want it to happen. Having the Steelers looking up at us from the cellar would be great!

I just don't see it. regardless of the roster they are light years better at coaching. I can't stand Tomlin, but he coaches circles around Taylor. That is part of why you can never count them out. I hope that I have to eat a huge serving of crow after the season. I really, really do. I still think the Bengals finish dead last in the division this coming season.

I don't think Taylor is a good coach, but Tomlin has never impressed me either.

He has just always had talented rosters.

[muskiesfan]

(05-30-2021, 12:12 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I don't think Taylor is a good coach, but Tomlin has never impressed me either.

He has just always had talented rosters.

There is probably a lot of truth in that. I am also probably being a little too hard on Zac. I really want the Bengals to win. I want Zac to turn it around and give us what we deserve. Who knows, maybe more of the problem is Lou than Zac.

I love your optimism and it starts to get me fired up. I just try to take a step back and be more cautiously optimistic. It seems getting to hyped for this team always ends in heartbreak. Like I said, I will be more than happy to eat a large serving of crow is this team plays up to what some are saying.

[CJD]

(05-28-2021, 11:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Well what metric do you prefer to settle a QB ranking debate? Because we can't just go off the ol' eye test when our opinions are so different.

2. I initially stated that Dalton finished top 15 in passer rating in 4 out of 5 years from 2012 to 2016. The reason I used this time frame is because - obviously - this was the prime of Dalton's career. 2017 to 2019 aren't included because we all know Dalton tailed off at the end of his career, as the team fell apart around him, and he got beaten up and aged.

You said Dalton was a "average to below average QB his entire career". So...I used that 5 year stretch to disprove that statement.

3. Exactly. How you feel about Dalton doesnt match reality. The stats and facts show a significant gap between Dalton and Fitzpatrick, and even most Dalton haters would admit he's better than Fitz.

4. We had elite starting WRs. Was Eifert really an elite TE? 615 yards in his best season, IIRC. Run game sucked, which you conveniently ignore. That's not elite, sorry dude. Not about fan clubs, it's about dealing in facts and reality.

It was good, but also vastly overrated.

There is no such thing of an objective measurement of QB performance. I wish there was. But all you can go off of is subjective characteristics like "clutch" and "composed. " 2 things Dalton never was and never will be.  He could have been upgraded but we chose not to. That is my entire point. If you asked fans of the other 31 franchises if they would want Dalton as their QB when in his "prime years" almost all of them would say no. You call it the 'ol eye test but it has value that you're ignoring. 

To the eyes, Dalton was average or worse his entire career, as agreed by the NFL experts, other fans and even a large portion of our fans. You can throw out statistics like how Dalton had a top 15 QB rating ignoring how many games he was garbage and how many stats he accumulated in garbage time if you'd like. Every success felt temporary with him because every time he "turned a corner" he almost immediately regressed, like clockwork. He had no elite QB characteristics so he always felt like a barrier to success rather than a gateway to success. He was inconsistent as well, only adding to the frustration. 

All I know is I'm stoked that we finally have a QB we and the media have faith in. We never had that with Dalton so it's going to be a really good 5 to 10 years ( or longer) coming up as a Bengals fan. 

[CJD]

(05-28-2021, 01:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I really wish we could all see Dalton for what he was: an average starting QB who had good moments and bad. Who could be upgraded, but was also someone you could win with on a good team.

Similar caliber to Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco, Cam Newton, Derek Carr.

If there wasn't guys out here claiming Dalton was trash, a backup, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jon Kitna, CFL caliber, etc...then there would've never been any "Dalton defenders".

That's literally what I was saying this entire conversation, except I added "or worse" after average. Was that really the only two words you disagreed with?...

[Frank Booth]

(05-30-2021, 02:58 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: That's literally what I was saying this entire conversation, except I added "or worse" after average. Was that really the only two words you disagreed with?...

But he wasn’t worse than those guys

[Dr.Z]

(05-27-2021, 09:53 PM)rezolve11 Wrote: I could be wrong but I think the Around the NFL gang which includes Rosenthal attributed the Dalton Line to the late great Chris Wesseling.

Wow, I can’t believe I didn’t see that he had passed away. I used to know him from about 18-19 years ago when he was into FF and dynasty rankings. Was a very knowledgeable guy. RIP

[Destro]

Called a bold prediction for a reason.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-30-2021, 02:58 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: That's literally what I was saying this entire conversation, except I added "or worse" after average. Was that really the only two words you disagreed with?...

You compared him to Ryan Fitzpatrick. I strongly disagree with that comparison, and I also disagreed that we had no business starting him for as long as we did. Dalton was a very worthy starting QB for most of his time with us.