Joe Burrow's stats from last year...

[*jason*]

(08-07-2021, 10:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Also remember that Dalton was coming off a college career where he, like Burrow, had led his team to an undefeated season capped off with a huge Bowl victory.

It's pretty hard to name more than 3-4 of Dalton's TCU teammates as well. I'm not implying that Burrow is t a better prospect, but Dalton wasn't an absolute scrub either.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-07-2021, 10:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are agreeing with me.  I have argued all along that even good QBs need talent around them in order to win.

Glad to see that you re finally coming around to my position.  No more of this "Dalton was just good because of the players around him while Burrow will just make everyone around him better."

Dalton, personally, wasn't quite as good as Burrow, but i've never disagreed that QBs with more talented weapons usually perform better. 

The difference is, the better QBs don't need as much talent as much as a lesser talented QB. Their output should typically be better, with similar talent. That was the case with Burrow. His comp% was higher, his TDs were almost identical, his intereptions were lower and his overall rating was higher. 

For people who watch QBs and how they play, there is a distinction in what they're capable of doing and that's not always seen when you look at stats, after the season is over.

I'm not sure if you're saying that Dalton and Burrow are equal QBs in terms of talent and ability, but i'm saying they're not. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-07-2021, 12:25 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That's 2021 rfaulk talking. Think back to the mindset we were all in going into the 2011 season. New 2nd round rookie coming into a team coming off a 4-12 season that was potentially going to go winless, taking over a team whose franchise QB would rather retire than play for.

Dalton takes that team to not just a winning record, but to the playoffs. During the 2011 season he has FOUR 4th quarter comebacks, four game winning drives. He goes to the Pro Bowl.

People were reasonably hyped and high on Dalton.

I agree with that, and that's probably how i was. But there was no point where i felt that Dalton was better than Palmer. Dalton clearly had better surroundings but it was clear from the beginning on that he simply wasn't able to get over that hump to become a playoff-winning caliber QB. (EDIT: in hindsight it was clear that from the beginning...)

I was on the Dalton train all the way until around 2016ish and then i was a major poo-poo'er of him from that point on because, like Marv, it was clear he wasn't going to get over the hump but he kept being run out there season after season. A lot of my vitriol for him was due more to MB and Marv than it was him.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-07-2021, 10:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Also remember that Dalton was coming off a college career where he, like Burrow, had led his team to an undefeated season capped off with a huge Bowl victory.

But i'm sure you see the distinction between Dalton's last year in college and Burrow's. Yes?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-06-2021, 03:16 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: so Zac Taylor is a bad coach, but you think the bengals get 9 wins?

the current offensive line isnt good. You're being a complete homer.

The secondary is good(probably) but the d-line is middle of the pack AT BEST. Linebackers? Not good. One might say, pretty bad.

5 or 6 wins in 2021

new coach for '22

Court is adjourned

It is impossible to show if you are a good coach or not with terrible play in the trenches.

Billy B cannot coach a team with terrible trench play.

If we have decent play in the trenches we will see if Zac Taylor is a good coach or a bad coach.

When I listen to him speak, the dude is smart and I like him and the players seem to feel the same.

But if we don't win more than 9 games this year he needs to go. Simple as that.

Court is adjourned? WTF stupid thing to say LMAO!!!

(08-06-2021, 03:30 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: this is not an argument by the way. There are so many bums that get drafted within the first 2 rounds. Using where they were drafted to imply that a player is actually good is so silly. Quit being silly.

Get you shit straight

XSF was our best Guard last year according to PFF even if I don't care about PFF. He isn't a bum. Get your shit straight.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-06-2021, 03:40 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Famous last words Nate.  I agree "IF" we stay healthy in the "RIGHT" area's then yes we could end up with 9 wins. 

However, as a Bengals fan, I'm kind of jaded into thinking there's always going to be a couple injuries on the OL and we arent set up well to handle any injuries on the OL.   The depth is young and full of back ups.  

I hope we win 9+ games trust me.  This will be my first year inside PBS since 2002 and I'm very much looking forward to it.  

Agree there is always an if and always have to have hope.

Life of a Bengals fan unless you are hopeless like ole Frank Booth.

He wants to keep Taylor around even if we don't win 9+ and stay hopeless for heck sake.

[Bengalstripes9]

I really hope they run the ball more this year to protect Burrow.

It's really frustrating to me that when the season was over and we had no chance of making the playoffs, they abandoned the run and put Burrow at risk against Washington (not to mention all the other games before). And obviously they stated that they had confidence in the offensive line going into the season, when they were one of the worst in the league--if not the worst. Burrow took some huge hits all year. I think everyone in the back of their minds was just hoping something major wouldn't happen--then it did. They should have invested more in the offensive line back then, and they should have protected him more. I get that they want to win and he gives them the best chance--and that it's fun to watch him do his thing. But still, make some small efforts to protect the guy at least. And the refs didn't do him any favors either.

I get that the league is trending towards being more pass happy--but that could lead to more QB injuries in the future (which would be bad for the sport). I hope to see more of a move to a balanced attack--maybe not 50 50, but at least 40 60 run to pass. We can't be passing every down like last year.

I had a dream a couple weeks ago that on the first snap of the season the Bengals called a play action QB draw and Burrow's knee locked up and he couldn't move. It's just hard to trust this organization making the right calls after what happened last year. I get they want to win. But we need a balanced attack and we need to protect our players when there's nothing to play for.

I'd love to see them resting Burrow late in games where we either are up a lot or have no chance of coming back. I'd love to see more of an emphasis on the running game. Most of all, I just want to see him fully recover and not get hurt this year. I'd be perfectly fine with him easing into the year. If he's not ready to go, I'd be perfectly happy seeing Allen start the year against the Vikings. But obviously the ideal scenario is him starting every game this year and showing no signs of any issues with the knee (and staying healthy).

My worst fear is seeing this franchise waste an A+ prospect like Burrow. Let's all hope that doesn't happen and he bounces back in a big way this year!

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-07-2021, 01:55 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I really hope they run the ball more this year to protect Burrow.

It's really frustrating to me that when the season was over and we had no chance of making the playoffs, they abandoned the run and put Burrow at risk against Washington (not to mention all the other games before). And obviously they stated that they had confidence in the offensive line going into the season, when they were one of the worst in the league--if not the worst. Burrow took some huge hits all year. I think everyone in the back of their minds was just hoping something major wouldn't happen--then it did. They should have invested more in the offensive line back then, and they should have protected him more. I get that they want to win and he gives them the best chance--and that it's fun to watch him do his thing. But still, make some small efforts to protect the guy at least. And the refs didn't do him any favors either.

I get that the league is trending towards being more pass happy--but that could lead to more QB injuries in the future (which would be bad for the sport). I hope to see more of a move to a balanced attack--maybe not 50 50, but at least 40 60 run to pass. We can't be passing every down like last year.

I had a dream a couple weeks ago that on the first snap of the season the Bengals called a play action QB draw and Burrow's knee locked up and he couldn't move. It's just hard to trust this organization making the right calls after what happened last year. I get they want to win. But we need a balanced attack and we need to protect our players when there's nothing to play for.

I'd love to see them resting Burrow late in games where we either are up a lot or have no chance of coming back. I'd love to see more of an emphasis on the running game. Most of all, I just want to see him fully recover and not get hurt this year. I'd be perfectly fine with him easing into the year. If he's not ready to go, I'd be perfectly happy seeing Allen start the year against the Vikings. But obviously the ideal scenario is him starting every game this year and showing no signs of any issues with the knee (and staying healthy).

My worst fear is seeing this franchise waste an A+ prospect like Burrow. Let's all hope that doesn't happen and he bounces back in a big way this year!

They have doomed you man! Don't be scared, I completely understand your feelings. Burrow will bounce back and have a 
great year behind a muchly improved OL is what I see happening. That is, if the starters on the OL can stay relatively healthy
and our depth improves which I think it will. Pollack is such an upgrade over Turner it isn't even funny. You will see brother.

Mixon had his best season rushing behind Pollack's wide zone scheme and is already raving about it.

[Bengalstripes9]

(08-07-2021, 02:05 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: They have doomed you man! Don't be scared, I completely understand your feelings. Burrow will bounce back and have a 
great year behind a muchly improved OL is what I see happening. That is, if the starters on the OL can stay relatively healthy
and our depth improves which I think it will. Pollack is such an upgrade over Turner it isn't even funny. You will see brother.

Mixon had his best season rushing behind Pollack's wide zone scheme and is already raving about it.

I’m just trying to be realistic. They’ve certainly invested more in the oline this year. I’m really happy to see the defense playing like they are. It sounds like the run game is improving a bit. I’m hoping that means we see a more balanced attack.

Burrows injury is very serious with the act, mcl, and structural damage. He’s done great so far and I hope to see him bounce back all the way. I have a wait and see approach. Hoping for the best. But I’m perfectly fine with a cautious approach as opposed to the decisions that led to his injury.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-07-2021, 01:36 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I agree with that, and that's probably how i was. But there was no point where i felt that Dalton was better than Palmer. Dalton clearly had better surroundings but it was clear from the beginning on that he simply wasn't able to get over that hump to become a playoff-winning caliber QB. (EDIT: in hindsight it was clear that from the beginning...)

I was on the Dalton train all the way until around 2016ish and then i was a major poo-poo'er of him from that point on because, like Marv, it was clear he wasn't going to get over the hump but he kept being run out there season after season. A lot of my vitriol for him was due more to MB and Marv than it was him.

Did he though? Palmer's situation was good enough that they were able to sit him his entire rookie year and the team still went 8-8 with Jon Kitna at QB. By the time Carson made his first NFL pass, Chad Johnson was already a Pro Bowler.

2004 Bengals vs 2011 Bengals

Chad > AJ
Housh > Simpson
Washington = Caldwell
Kelly < Gresham
Rudi > Benson

Levi < Whit
Steinbach > Livings
Braham = Cook
Bobbie > Bobbie (28 y/o Bobbie vs 35 y/o Bobbie)
Willie > Andre

Of the 10 guys around them on offense, I would argue that 6 of them were better for Palmer, 2 were a wash, and only TE and LT were better for Dalton.


- - - - -
(Now I will fully agree that the defense was better for Dalton than Palmer, but that doesn't change the fact that Dalton somehow being put into a better position as a rookie just doesn't really add up.)

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-07-2021, 01:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: But i'm sure you see the distinction between Dalton's last year in college and Burrow's. Yes?

Burrow was also playing with from the 2020-2021 drafts...

WR = 1st Round
WR = 1st Round
WR = 2nd Round
WR = 6th Round
TE = 7th Round
RB = 1st Round

G = 3rd Round
C = 3rd Round
T = 4th Round

LB = 1st Round
LB = 1st Round
LB = 3rd Round
S = 2nd Round
S = 6th Round
CB = 2nd Round
CB = 7th Round
DT = 4th Round
DT = 4th Round

LS = 6th Round

That is the closest we have ever seen to an NFL team beating up on college teams mostly composed of car/insurance salesmen and gym coaches. 5 1st rounders, 3 2nd rounders, 3 3rd rounders, and 3 4th rounders. (Not counting Burrow himself.)

(Don't get me wrong, I think Burrow is more talented and has a higher ceiling than Dalton, but he also played with an entire team of NFL caliber players.)

For comparison, here's TCU's 2011-2012 draftees...

T = 5th Round
WR = 5th Round

LB = 5th Round
S = 6th Round
CB = 7th Round
CB = 7th Round

Nobody earlier than the 5th round, and only 1 more player in total than LSU had 1st round players not named Burrow.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-07-2021, 02:36 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I’m just trying to be realistic. They’ve certainly invested more in the oline this year. I’m really happy to see the defense playing like they are. It sounds like the run game is improving a bit. I’m hoping that means we see a more balanced attack.

Burrows injury is very serious with the act, mcl, and structural damage. He’s done great so far and I hope to see him bounce back all the way. I have a wait and see approach. Hoping for the best. But I’m perfectly fine with a cautious approach as opposed to the decisions that led to his injury.

For sure, and your concerns with Zac's play calling are extremely valid. We need to run the ball more and not give up on it.

I for one like passing on 1st downs more and running after and also using Mixon and the backs more in the passing game as an 
extension of the running game. Makes us more unpredictable and puts us in shorter 2nd and 3rd downs. I really liked hearing 
about D'ante Smith and Jonah having a good day run blocking for Mixon yesterday. The Wide Zone scheme sounds like it is what
this OL likes as I was most concerned about our run blocking before hearing this.

I think we will be much better at protecting Burrow this year with a starting line of...

Jonah-Spain/XSF-Hopkins-Carman/XSF-Reiff/D'Ante Smith

Ten times better than having Michael Jordan and Redmond out there in the middle with Hart at RT.

BTW, even Michael Jordan looks better than last year from what I saw, he was actually staying low. Maybe Willie helped him.

[Frank Booth]

Nate’s the only person who thinks the offensive line is good lol

C’mon Nate

Admit there’s some delusion there

[Bengalstripes9]

(08-07-2021, 03:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For sure, and your concerns with Zac's play calling are extremely valid. We need to run the ball more and not give up on it.

I for one like passing on 1st downs more and running after and also using Mixon and the backs more in the passing game as an 
extension of the running game. Makes us more unpredictable and puts us in shorter 2nd and 3rd downs. I really liked hearing 
about D'ante Smith and Jonah having a good day run blocking for Mixon yesterday. The Wide Zone scheme sounds like it is what
this OL likes as I was most concerned about our run blocking before hearing this.

I think we will be much better at protecting Burrow this year with a starting line of...

Jonah-Spain/XSF-Hopkins-Carman/XSF-Reiff/D'Ante Smith

Ten times better than having Michael Jordan and Redmond out there in the middle with Hart at RT.

BTW, even Michael Jordan looks better than last year from what I saw, he was actually staying low. Maybe Willie helped him.

I like the additions to the oline. Reiff is the biggest upgrade in my book. I thought Spain did well last year. Carman or xsf should be an upgrade at right guard.

But overall I feel like we upgraded to a middle of the pack offensive line (hopefully). I’m not expecting a dominant group. Maybe they can improve in time to a top ten group, but it’ll take time. I expect us to struggle a bit against teams like the Ravens, 9ers, etc. But we’ll see.

I was mainly expressing my frustration with throwing Burrow to the wolves last year when the season was over already. It was just idiotic and maybe I should move on already. But it was a pretty epic ‘duck’ up and obviously makes things a lot more challenging then they needed to be for Burrow. Hopefully the teams past failures are behind them and they learned something.

[Frank Booth]

(08-07-2021, 04:17 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I like the additions to the oline. Reiff is the biggest upgrade in my book. I thought Spain did well last year. Carman or xsf should be an upgrade at right guard.

But overall I feel like we upgraded to a middle of the pack offensive line (hopefully). I’m not expecting a dominant group. Maybe they can improve in time to a top ten group, but it’ll take time. I expect us to struggle a bit against teams like the Ravens, 9ers, etc. But we’ll see.

I was mainly expressing my frustration with throwing Burrow to the wolves last year when the season was over already. It was just idiotic and maybe I should move on already. But it was a pretty epic ‘duck’ up and obviously makes things a lot more challenging then they needed to be for Burrow. Hopefully the teams past failures are behind them and they learned something.

We upgraded alright

From 32nd to 29th

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-07-2021, 02:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Did he though? Palmer's situation was good enough that they were able to sit him his entire rookie year and the team still went 8-8 with Jon Kitna at QB. By the time Carson made his first NFL pass, Chad Johnson was already a Pro Bowler.

2004 Bengals vs 2011 Bengals

Chad > AJ
Housh > Simpson
Washington = Caldwell
Kelly < Gresham
Rudi > Benson

Levi < Whit
Steinbach > Livings
Braham = Cook
Bobbie > Bobbie (28 y/o Bobbie vs 35 y/o Bobbie)
Willie > Andre

Of the 10 guys around them on offense, I would argue that 6 of them were better for Palmer, 2 were a wash, and only TE and LT were better for Dalton.


- - - - -
(Now I will fully agree that the defense was better for Dalton than Palmer, but that doesn't change the fact that Dalton somehow being put into a better position as a rookie just doesn't really add up.)

The skill and bigs on offense were definitely on Palmer's side. The production bears that out too. I was looking more at the overall team. 

2004 offense: 10/18 PF/YDS. 2011 offense: 18/20 PF/YDS.
2004 defense: 21/19 PF/YDS. 2011 defense: 9/7 PF/YDS. 

That era of defense was a huge lift for the overall success of that team. 2009 was the only year that Palmer had a single digit defense and it was a good thing because up until then the offense carried those Palmer teams. Could you imagine the '05-'07 offense with the '11-'13 defense? It could have been a thing if Palmer had stuck around, if he could have turned it around like he did in Arizona.  

I just believe that if you could interchange QBs, Palmer would have more success with either team than Dalton would.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-07-2021, 02:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Burrow was also playing with from the 2020-2021 drafts...

WR = 1st Round
WR = 1st Round
WR = 2nd Round
WR = 6th Round
TE = 7th Round
RB = 1st Round

G = 3rd Round
C = 3rd Round
T = 4th Round

LB = 1st Round
LB = 1st Round
LB = 3rd Round
S = 2nd Round
S = 6th Round
CB = 2nd Round
CB = 7th Round
DT = 4th Round
DT = 4th Round

LS = 6th Round

That is the closest we have ever seen to an NFL team beating up on college teams mostly composed of car/insurance salesmen and gym coaches. 5 1st rounders, 3 2nd rounders, 3 3rd rounders, and 3 4th rounders. (Not counting Burrow himself.)

(Don't get me wrong, I think Burrow is more talented and has a higher ceiling than Dalton, but he also played with an entire team of NFL caliber players.)

For comparison, here's TCU's 2011-2012 draftees...

T = 5th Round
WR = 5th Round

LB = 5th Round
S = 6th Round
CB = 7th Round
CB = 7th Round

Nobody earlier than the 5th round, and only 1 more player in total than LSU had 1st round players not named Burrow.

The good...or bad thing is, how Burrow does over the next 3-5 years will give us a better answer to the question. If i was going to lay down money, it would be on Burrow. 

[Essex Johnson]

(08-07-2021, 01:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Dalton, personally, wasn't quite as good as Burrow, but i've never disagreed that QBs with more talented weapons usually perform better. 

The difference is, the better QBs don't need as much talent as much as a lesser talented QB. Their output should typically be better, with similar talent. That was the case with Burrow. His comp% was higher, his TDs were almost identical, his intereptions were lower and his overall rating was higher. 

For people who watch QBs and how they play, there is a distinction in what they're capable of doing and that's not always seen when you look at stats, after the season is over.

I'm not sure if you're saying that Dalton and Burrow are equal QBs in terms of talent and ability, but i'm saying they're not. 

Burrow right now is potential,  he was slightly behind  Dalton if you compare 1st years but he is expected to be better than Dalton. I think his 2nd year will be a strong indicator if his potential turns into real results of a franchise Type QB especially with quality of WR/RB we have.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-07-2021, 10:37 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Burrow right now is potential,  he was slightly behind  Dalton if you compare 1st years but he is expected to be better than Dalton. I think his 2nd year will be a strong indicator if his potential turns into real results of a franchise Type QB especially with quality of WR/RB we have.

No he wasn’t. He was on pace to put up better numbers in every statistical category. And that was with the easiest part of the schedule coming up. Burrow would have absolutely feasted against teams like Dallas, NY, and Houston.


- Burrow

65.3 cmp%
89.8 rating
1.2 Int %
56.2 QBR


- Dalton

58.1 cmp%
80.4 rating
2.5 Int %
49.5 QBR

[MasonDT70]

(08-07-2021, 11:00 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No he wasn’t. He was on pace to put up better numbers in every statistical category. And that was with the easiest part of the schedule coming up. Burrow would have absolutely feasted against teams like Dallas, NY, and Houston.


- Burrow

65.3 cmp%
89.8 rating
1.2 Int %
56.2 QBR


- Dalton

58.1 cmp%
80.4 rating
2.5 Int %
49.5 QBR

Can't really compare them.like that though. Even in the relatively short 9 year difference league averages have gone up quite a bit. I'm only phone so I can't really up those years averages very well, but I'd imagine they're not that far off comparatively to where they ranked league wide those years.