Elephant in the Room

[*Nately120*]

On a lighter note, Stafford just threw back to back INTs and the first one was a Three Stooges-style laffer where he was being spun around like a top in his own endzone and he fired the ball into a Titan's defender rather than take the safety. Lordy loo, it's funny when it ain't us.

[jj22]

I yearn for the days of complaining about playoff losses... We went 5 straight years of them, and had our nerve to not appreciate the moment. Likely the best run anyone will see in any of our lifetimes. Maybe whoever's left will see it in 2092. It'll be fitting for The Mars Bengals.

Mike Brown will most likely be around still to the dismay of the aliens.

[jfkbengals]

(11-07-2021, 11:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: On a lighter note, Stafford just threw back to back INTs and the first one was a Three Stooges-style laffer where he was being spun around like a top in his own endzone and he fired the ball into a Titan's defender rather than take the safety.  Lordy loo, it's funny when it ain't us.

And he could have gone down inbounds to prevent either from happening...

[Tony]

(11-07-2021, 11:13 PM)jj22 Wrote: I yearn for the days of complaining about playoff losses... We went 5 straight years of them, and had our nerve to not appreciate the moment. Likely the best run anyone will see in any of our lifetimes. Maybe whoever's left will see it in 2092. It'll be fitting for The Mars Bengals.

I'm 41 and I'm seriously starting to believe I won't ever see a playoff win...

[Murdock2420]

(11-07-2021, 11:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not sure what the other guys are thinking, but Dalton most definitely took a TON of heat from the moment he was drafted.

In 2013, I remember clearly what the debate shifted to: the 20 INTs. That entire offseason, it was one side bringing up the 4300 yards and 33 TDs, with the other always countering with the INTs. Or vice versa.

And of course the grumbling over the playoff performances was already kicking into high gear.

Frankly, most of the criticism towards Burrow right now is pillow soft compared to what was said about Dalton back then.

I remember Dalton taking heat on the old board, but I felt like it wasn't early on in his career with the Bengals. I remember year one was like a huge feel good story of Whit bringing the rookies together on his own to get the team ready and people seemed kinda surprised by how well the team played.

Later on I remember the hammering on Dalton being about "Good" Andy vs "Bad" Andy or in short Sunday 1 PM Andy vs Pre-time/pressure Andy.

Either way, fans will always see things differently. Some people like player A and will defend him and be unable to see his faults while other people will see every fault in that player no matter how small. It becomes even worse though when the team has been so bad for so long and has the streak of zero playoff wins rolling along. 

[Joelist]

The aggravating part is Burrow is throwing at least 1 INT per game and of course games with multiples. And the vast majority are just bad decisions. I was NOT expecting bad decision making from Burrow both on INTs and also unnecessary sacks because he holds it too long and is not seeing blitzes. I want to see the elite football intelligence and decision making skills we drafted for.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-07-2021, 11:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Frankly, mosf of the criticism towards Burrow right now is pillow soft compared to what was said about Dalton back then.

There was a reason Andy Dalton sometimes got a pass for his interceptions.

The Bengals were winning.

[Rubekahn29]

Burrow has made plenty of mistake, but let’s not pretend that he has even remotely better O-line and Defense than Dalton had ‘11-‘15

Burrow has a lot of things to work on.
1. Throws way too many interceptions. Really weird considering he threw the ball more last year and threw half as many picks in this many games. I think he’s being more risky and it’s just not paying off.
2. He’s got to stop trying to tackle on his picks. Going to hurt himself.
3. He’s got to stop trying to juke out DBs and linebackers. He never escapes them. He’s not in college anymore. He’s likely the worst athlete out there aside from the big guys and many of them are more athletic than him.


All that being said. He’s doing a lot of good things. You don’t lead the AFC in TDs by accident. We also have a winning record at the bye week and halfway mark. Lots to complain about, but also a lot of stuff to look forward to. None of us thought playoffs before the year and we are still in the hunt halfway through.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-07-2021, 11:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Look at post 33

Post 33? I was clearly talking about today. And all I did was respond to a claim that Dalton was better than Burrow, and then the “Army” (as you like to call them) got all up in arms.

Look, Burrow deserves plenty of criticism after a performance like today, but a couple of these guys (we all know who) have had an agenda with him since day one. And wild overreactions deserve to be called out. No unbiased person that even casually follows football would agree with that take. Even after a game like this one. Burrow at his worst is not “2.0” bad…

[*Go Cards*]

(11-07-2021, 11:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not sure what the other guys are thinking, but Dalton most definitely took a TON of heat from the moment he was drafted.

In 2013, I remember clearly what the debate shifted to: the 20 INTs. That entire offseason, it was one side bringing up the 4300 yards and 33 TDs, with the other always countering with the INTs. Or vice versa.

And of course the grumbling over the playoff performances was already kicking into high gear.

Frankly, most of the criticism towards Burrow right now is pillow soft compared to what was said about Dalton back then.

Same goes for Palmer after he started to wear out his welcome and threw all those pick sixes (5) in 2010.

Yep I took daltons back with many others but it seemed to me that the majority of the board hated Andy back then. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-07-2021, 10:16 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I didn’t bring up Dalton (I never do), I merely responded to the assertion that “it’s fair to question if Dalton was better.” Which is silly if Joe throwing a lot of picks is the sole basis of said claim. Considering Dalton also had seasons where he threw a ton of them.

Anyway, what good will come from being “concerned” about it? It’s up to Burrow to cut down the picks. Me freaking out about them does nothing. And before today he was throwing a ton of TD’s to go with them. If he starts throwing picks without the TD’s on a regular basis then I’ll be concerned. But so far that’s only happened once in 9 games.

(11-07-2021, 11:27 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Post 33? I was clearly talking about today. And all I did was respond to a claim that Dalton was better than Burrow, and then the “Army” (as you like to call them) got all up in arms.

Look, Burrow deserves plenty of criticism after a performance like today, but a couple of these guys (we all know who) have had an agenda with him since day one. And wild overreactions deserve to be called out. No unbiased person that even casually follows football would agree with that take. Even after a game like this one. Burrow at his worst is not “2.0” bad…

The first post quoted is from today. 

I'm not familiar with any agenda against you. I was just pointing out the fallacy.

But I agree Burrow is not Dalton bad,,,but he's trending that way,

[Shake n Blake]

(11-07-2021, 11:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Look at post 33

Oof.

(11-07-2021, 11:16 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I remember Dalton taking heat on the old board, but I felt like it wasn't early on in his career with the Bengals. I remember year one was like a huge feel good story of Whit bringing the rookies together on his own to get the team ready and people seemed kinda surprised by how well the team played.

Later on I remember the hammering on Dalton being about "Good" Andy vs "Bad" Andy or in short Sunday 1 PM Andy vs Pre-time/pressure Andy.

Either way, fans will always see things differently. Some people like player A and will defend him and be unable to see his faults while other people will see every fault in that player no matter how small. It becomes even worse though when the team has been so bad for so long and has the streak of zero playoff wins rolling along. 

The Dalton debate was the primary argument on the boards from probably 2012 to the time he left. You guys must not remember Mulligan, and he was far from alone. There were a lot of guys who weren't sold on Andy from day 1.

For his rookie year, it was pretty mild, with big flare-ups after every bad game. Particularly after week 3 against SF when Dalton was terrible. But overall I think Dalton surprised as a rookie so it wasn't too bad.

By 2013, it was a weekly debate. The INTs were a big topic. When he had a bad week, you'd see 15 threads talking about him being trash. Weak arm. Will never be a franchise QB. Carried by AJ Green and all the weapons (that argument started in 2013 with the additions of Eifert, Jones and Sanu).
"Bad Andy" became a nickname that was hurled around when he had a bad game.

After the 2013 season, the talk remained all about the 20 INTs and the fact that he was only 15th in passer rating. People said this meant Dalton was a middling starter, and that's all he'd ever he. He was holding the team back.

And all of this was during Dalton's peak years. It got worse as time progressed. I remember all of this clearly, because I was one of the guys arguing for Dalton every week.

(11-07-2021, 11:18 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: There was a reason Andy Dalton sometimes got a pass for his interceptions.

The Bengals were winning.

He really never got a pass. At least not from a couple dozen (at least) on the old boards. There were some stretches like 2015 where people shut up about it because he was playing at a high level, but I remember watching games and knowing the boards were going to blow up if Dalton threw a crucial pick.

Surely I can't be the only one who remembers this.

[*bfine32*]

(11-07-2021, 11:29 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Yep I took daltons back with many others but it seemed to me that the majority of the board hated Andy back then. 

The majority of the board didn't hate Andy..

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-01-2021, 06:25 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wasn’t going to bring him up (not trying to get any panties in a bunch), but the year Dalton broke the franchise passing TD record he threw a lot of picks as well (20). It’s obviously not something you want to see, but if the QB is also throwing a ton of TD’s you can live with it.

We aren’t talking about being in the Jamies 30/30 club here.

(11-07-2021, 11:02 PM)jj22 Wrote: I was not the first to bring up Dalton in this thread.... Or was I?

I believe his 20 interceptions were brought up before so don't bang the table too hard there Nico. Someone may go back to the first couple pages.

I did in fact bring it up days ago (thanks detective Bfine), but if you actually look at the post above I really wasn’t trying to bash Dalton. Just merely pointing out you can live with high INT’s as long as the TD’s are coming in bunches.

You however, were the one who bought Dalton up today. But I shouldn’t have taken the bait. So shame on me.

[*bfine32*]

Joeis Winston

[jj22]

I remember Shake.

[KillerGoose]

(11-07-2021, 11:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Oof.


The Dalton debate was the primary argument on the boards from probably 2012 to the time he left. You guys must not remember Mulligan, and he was far from alone. There were a lot of guys who weren't sold on Andy from day 1.

For his rookie year, it was pretty mild, with big flare-ups after every bad game. Particularly after week 3 against SF when Dalton was terrible. But overall I think Dalton surprised as a rookie so it wasn't too bad.

By 2013, it was a weekly debate. The INTs were a big topic. When he had a bad week, you'd see 15 threads talking about him being trash. Weak arm. Will never be a franchise QB. Carried by AJ Green and all the weapons (that argument started in 2013 with the additions of Eifert, Jones and Sanu).
"Bad Andy" became a nickname that was hurled around when he had a bad game.

After the 2013 season, the talk remained all about the 20 INTs and the fact that he was only 15th in passer rating. People said this meant Dalton was a middling starter, and that's all he'd ever he. He was holding the team back.

And all of this was during Dalton's peak years. It got worse as time progressed. I remember all of this clearly, because I was one of the guys arguing for Dalton every week.


He really never got a pass. At least not from a couple dozen (at least) on the old boards. There were some stretches like 2015 where people shut up about it because he was playing at a high level, but I remember watching games and knowing the boards were going to blow up if Dalton threw a crucial pick.

Surely I can't be the only one who remembers this.

The Dalton debates were FIERCE on the old board, yeah. They raged for years. Joe hasn’t really received any harsh criticism. The vast majority of the fan base loves Joe.

[Murdock2420]

(11-07-2021, 11:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Oof.


The Dalton debate was the primary argument on the boards from probably 2012 to the time he left. You guys must not remember Mulligan, and he was far from alone. There were a lot of guys who weren't sold on Andy from day 1.

For his rookie year, it was pretty mild, with big flare-ups after every bad game. Particularly after week 3 against SF when Dalton was terrible. But overall I think Dalton surprised as a rookie so it wasn't too bad.

By 2013, it was a weekly debate. The INTs were a big topic. When he had a bad week, you'd see 15 threads talking about him being trash. Weak arm. Will never be a franchise QB. Carried by AJ Green and all the weapons (that argument started in 2013 with the additions of Eifert, Jones and Sanu).

After the 2013 season, the talk remained all about the 20 INTs and the fact that he was only 15th in passer rating. People said this meant Dalton was a middling starter, and that's all he'd ever he. He was holding the team back.

And all of this was during Dalton's peak years. It got worse as time progressed. I remember all of this clearly, because I was one of the guys arguing for Dalton every week.


He really never got a pass. At least not from a couple dozen (at least) on the old boards. There were some stretches like 2015 where people shut up about it because he was playing at a high level, but I remember watching games and knowing the boards were going to blow up if Dalton threw a crucial pick.

Surely I can't be the only one who remembers this.

I try to forget him.... I really do.

Not sure we have anyone on here that is at that level.

I do remember the later years the debate about the INTs. I thought the question was more about during the same time frame of the careers between Burrow and Dalton. Like you said in your reply and Kettering pointed out as well, the team was winning and Dalton came in with lower expectations and kind of surprised a lot of people with his play.

I think the few guys who seem most critical of Burrow are doing it for one of two reasons, they are just used to the Bengals not having nice things and believe Burrow will struggle being in this system or the other option. There have been some posters on this board the past few years making claims about how this player fixes the team, and this is the way it has to be and etc, etc. Now some posters are pushing back at that small group, at least that is what it reads like (I hope sometimes) when I look at the comments that I think are just trying to get a rise out of the "experts".

[jj22]

(11-07-2021, 11:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I did in fact bring it up days ago (thanks detective Bfine), but if you actually look at the post above I really wasn’t trying to bash Dalton. Just merely pointing out you can live with high INT’s as long as the TD’s are coming in bunches.

You however, were the one who bought Dalton up today. But I shouldn’t have taken the bait. So shame on me.

Me? Nico why keep trying to drag me into your mess of a debate with Frank et al. Why turn fire my direction when I really have nothing to do with your side convo. 

I surely ain't about to help you dig yourself out the hole. No disrespect. I did my part trying to warn you to not bang the table so hard as you walked right into the trap. 

Recognize help when it's offered. 

[*michaelsean*]

(11-07-2021, 11:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: On a lighter note, Stafford just threw back to back INTs and the first one was a Three Stooges-style laffer where he was being spun around like a top in his own endzone and he fired the ball into a Titan's defender rather than take the safety. Lordy loo, it's funny when it ain't us.

Yeah he had a rough little run there.