Chase not Practicing

[007BengalsFan]

(08-30-2024, 05:34 PM)Whatever Wrote: Also, I deal with a number of contractors that are union shops and if you try to get those guys to come in for mandatory work that they aren't getting paid for, then you're going to have a strike on your hands the second you try to withhold a dollar from someone's check.

Then they need to come into work and actually work.  They cant sit and not work and think they are getting paid when they were contracted to do a job.  Come in and do the job you were signed on to do.  If you sit and refuse to do the job, you arent getting paid.

[Ell Prez]

(08-30-2024, 05:31 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The salary cap isnt $500 million.  It's 255.4 million this year.  A 40 million per year extension would be close to 16% of the cap.  Even if you average it over a 6 yard period and the cap hit was $32 million per year which is the figure some people are trying to justify to sign Chase to a 40 million per year extension, that 32 million would take up 12.5% of the cap this year.   Joe Burrow's cap hit this year is $29.7 million or 11.6% of the cap.  Signing Ja'Marr Chase to such a ridiculous contract would take up more of the cap space than Burrow this year.   And to add, I dont think the Bengals even have that much free cap space this year to begin with.

I wasn’t talking about salary cap. I was referring to ones income vs the business’ gross income.

We can afford chase and burrow and have a good team. If we can’t pay a QB and an All pro, we’re doing it wrong.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-30-2024, 02:36 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I do feel like there is a little more context to the numbers. But instead of arguing them I will say Chase is a special player with elite traits. Those elite traits are what you pay for. 

That's a great way to put it.
He is a special player with elite traits.
And someone can come up with a handful of reasons why he wasn't a Top 5 the past couple years or why he would be this year and down the road.

He'd get more production if he got more targets.
He hasn't been as healthy as some other guys.
He had some poor QB play when Burrow was out.
All reasons to say he could be higher up if certain things happened.
But at the end of the day, he still ended up where he did.

[casear2727]

(08-30-2024, 12:56 PM)Whatever Wrote: So, basically, you are of the opinion that if you're going to make your living playing professional football then you must bend the knee at every turn to a cartel (which the NFL is) that operates in a manner that is illegal except for the fact that they bought off politicians to get an anti-trust exemption from the government and continue to throw money at judges and politicians every time this is challenged(see the recent Sunday Ticket case)?

Beyond that, whether his contract is currently being breeched is open for debate.  Players do not get paid to practice, except for workout bonuses which are optional.  The guarantee line cuts both ways, after all. Teams can fine players for not participating in training camp practices under the CBA so long as they can prove the players is healthy, but the Bengals are not doing that.  A player is only refusing to do something they are actually getting paid to do when they start missing games.

To set this up as a real world example, a person is vastly underpaid compared to the market for an employee of their skill set at their job.  On top of that, their boss requires them to come in unpaid for team building activities and can dock their pay if they don't attend.  They are also not free to leave their job and seal employment  at a competitor because they are bound by a non-compete (illegal as of September 4th per the FTC, btw).  And they never got to choose their place of employment to begin with and had to pack their life up and move to a city not of their choosing because all the companies in their field are in league with each other and allow each other to exclusively claim candidates out of college.

But the team can be cutthroat, but the player can't.

This is just not correct whatsoever.  Not one player is forced to enter the NFL or to sign a contract.  Every NFL contract has guaranteed and non-guaranteed aspects.  

The NFL is not a cartel, that is just so dumb to me.  It is no ones right to play in the NFL, it is a privilege.  It is likely one of the greatest vehicles ever created for earning wealth for young black men.

Chase breeching his contract is NOT up for debate.  His contract stipulates his participation.  He is not participating. That is a breach.  It doesn't require a Juris Doctor to understand this.  Your concerns about the unpaid activities have zero ground to stand on as every player signs up for the activities and payment schedule.

Your real-life example is nonsensical.  I am a business owner, have been for over 30 years.  I have had well over 1000 employees and dealt with many large investing firms.  Jimmy Haslem, owner of the Browns, was a lead investor of one of my companies.  I am well versed in contracts of all types, especially employment contracts.

Many people with employment contracts feel underpaid, especially those not making millions of dollars.  No one made them sign their contracts.  You can say the NFL requires the rookie scale, do the other professional football leagues?  Chase had options, albeit worse ones.  


If Chase does not sign a new deal this season he will have made $31M at the age of 24 playing a game.  Your bleeding heart is very sweet but a tad dramatic. 

Chase's boss is not requiring him to do anything that Chase did not agree to do in writing.  You have a very weird way of making Chase a victim in this.

Noncompetes are very legal and binding, they are used for several different occupations.  There are very good reasons for non-competes.  The FTC has zero authority to to create substantive rules regarding unfair methods of competition and thus their "rule" will not go into effect on Sept 4th.

A team provides a tremendous amount of wealth to these players, the stipulations of their contracts are co-written by the Players Association.

Your argument has zero basis in fact or legality.  Im not sure that you have experience in dealing with contracts at a high level with this take.


Chase signed a legal binding contract to participate in return for a set amount of compensation.   He is not participating thus that is a breech, and he is likely being fined as per his agreed contract designed in part by his Union, that he signed at the advice of his lawyers.

Again, I wish the team would extend the guy and get it over with, but this narrative that players are victims is not true.

[Whatever]

(08-30-2024, 05:47 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The NFL's period is 4 years or 5 year's if you are a first rounder and the team picks up the option.  That is what is set in the NFL rules.  In unions, like the bricklayers union a new guy can negotiate from day 1.  That doesnt mean the company has to pay him what he wants.  They could pay him more if they wanted or they can hold him to the 4 year apprenticeship program scale that was put in place.




If Chase was a free agent, he would be free to negotiate with team XYZ or team 123 for whatever he feels he is worth but he is not a free agents so he has to honor the contract that he still has 2 years left on before he can negotiate with other teams

The NFL's period is three years.  After that, you are free to negotiate a new deal free from the rookie slotting scale per league rules.

However, here's where your argument completely falls apart.  If a bricklayer is capable of working at a level where a fair wage is $35 an hour, but his employer refuses to increase his wage above $20 an hour, it's unrealistic to think he will continue to work at a level consummate with a $35/hr wage.  He's fully within his right to just do the bare minimum job requirements to earn the wage he's being paid, and I doubt anyone here would hold it against him.

Chase has a cap number of $9.8 million dollars this year.  Ethically, he's only obligated to perform at a level consummate to to a player of his position making the same money on a deal that was negotiated freely.  So why are people upset that he's not actively participating in practice?  He's not paid to practice.  Does anyone really think he needs TC to perform at the same level as the average FA making $9.8 mil over the course of the season?  Doubtful.  There's outrage because people KNOW he's underpaid and EXPECT him to perform at a level worth 3-4x what he could could get on the open market. Not to mention the fact that most of those complaining in this thread are doing so at their workplace, thusly not giving their own employer their best efforts, but are upset someone else isn't doing the same.

[Nicomo Cosca]

You’ve been killing it in this thread, Whatever. I’d rep you if I could, but haven’t been able to on mobile since the latest update.

[*bfine32*]

(08-30-2024, 07:03 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’ve been killing it in this thread, Whatever. I’d rep you if I could, but haven’t been able to on mobile since the latest update.

Just get me when you get to a PC

[*bfine32*]

(08-30-2024, 06:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: The NFL's period is three years.  After that, you are free to negotiate a new deal free from the rookie slotting scale per league rules.

However, here's where your argument completely falls apart.  If a bricklayer is capable of working at a level where a fair wage is $35 an hour, but his employer refuses to increase his wage above $20 an hour, it's unrealistic to think he will continue to work at a level consummate with a $35/hr wage.  He's fully within his right to just do the bare minimum job requirements to earn the wage he's being paid, and I doubt anyone here would hold it against him.

Chase has a cap number of $9.8 million dollars this year.  Ethically, he's only obligated to perform at a level consummate to to a player of his position making the same money on a deal that was negotiated freely.  So why are people upset that he's not actively participating in practice?  He's not paid to practice.  Does anyone really think he needs TC to perform at the same level as the average FA making $9.8 mil over the course of the season?  Doubtful.  There's outrage because people KNOW he's underpaid and EXPECT him to perform at a level worth 3-4x what he could could get on the open market. Not to mention the fact that most of those complaining in this thread are doing so at their workplace, thusly not giving their own employer their best efforts, but are upset someone else isn't doing the same 

I'll say you have a fair point if you can answer one simple question:

What exactly is Chase asking for that his employer is unwilling to pay? 

[Joelist]

The issue is probably structure of guarantees. He’s possibly asking more in first year guarantees than they can afford to put in escrow right now. Or if signing bonus more than they have immediately on hand.

[Whatever]

(08-30-2024, 06:18 PM)casear2727 Wrote: This is just not correct whatsoever.  Not one player is forced to enter the NFL or to sign a contract.  Every NFL contract has guaranteed and non-guaranteed aspects.  

The NFL is not a cartel, that is just so dumb to me.  It is no ones right to play in the NFL, it is a privilege.  It is likely one of the greatest vehicles ever created for earning wealth for young black men.

Chase breeching his contract is NOT up for debate.  His contract stipulates his participation.  He is not participating. That is a breach.  It doesn't require a Juris Doctor to understand this.  Your concerns about the unpaid activities have zero ground to stand on as every player signs up for the activities and payment schedule.

Your real-life example is nonsensical.  I am a business owner, have been for over 30 years.  I have had well over 1000 employees and dealt with many large investing firms.  Jimmy Haslem, owner of the Browns, was a lead investor of one of my companies.  I am well versed in contracts of all types, especially employment contracts.

Many people with employment contracts feel underpaid, especially those not making millions of dollars.  No one made them sign their contracts.  You can say the NFL requires the rookie scale, do the other professional football leagues?  Chase had options, albeit worse ones.  


If Chase does not sign a new deal this season he will have made $31M at the age of 24 playing a game.  Your bleeding heart is very sweet but a tad dramatic. 

Chase's boss is not requiring him to do anything that Chase did not agree to do in writing.  You have a very weird way of making Chase a victim in this.

Noncompetes are very legal and binding, they are used for several different occupations.  There are very good reasons for non-competes.  The FTC has zero authority to to create substantive rules regarding unfair methods of competition and thus their "rule" will not go into effect on Sept 4th.

A team provides a tremendous amount of wealth to these players, the stipulations of their contracts are co-written by the Players Association.

Your argument has zero basis in fact or legality.  Im not sure that you have experience in dealing with contracts at a high level with this take.


Chase signed a legal binding contract to participate in return for a set amount of compensation.   He is not participating thus that is a breech, and he is likely being fined as per his agreed contract designed in part by his Union, that he signed at the advice of his lawyers.

Again, I wish the team would extend the guy and get it over with, but this narrative that players are victims is not true.

A cartel is by definition s group of businesses that collude to manipulate prices.  The NFL is a cartel by definition.  If you are indeed a successful business owner, that is something that you should know.  

The ol' "playing in the NFL is a privilege", bit is your opinion, nothing more.  If it were truly a privilege, then why do the athletes get paid at all?  It is a career.  A job.  A dream job to many, sure.  But still a job.  And persons in a line of work deserve to be compensated fairly compared to their value to the organization they play for and the wages of their peers.

If he is in breach of contract, then the club is fully within their right to fine him, which would be made public due to league rules, the NFLPA, etc.  However, they have not, which indicates that the club has chosen to waive those rights thus far, which clubs do all the time.  A veteran rest day is technically a breach of contract per your definition.  It's actually very likely that the team have waived the right to have him actively participate as part of the negotiation process.  Hell, most people don't know that standard language is that the player is obligated to fully participate in preseason and All Star games, meaning everyone who skips the Pro Bowl or doesn't suit up for a preseason game is breaching their contract.  It's not a breach if the other party chooses to waive their rights.  If you deal with contracts, you should be well aware of that, as well.

[Whatever]

(08-30-2024, 07:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll say you have a fair point if you can answer one simple question:

What exactly is Chase asking for that his employer is unwilling to pay? 

We don't know.  But, we also know that what a player will ask for is usually less than they will actually take.

[007BengalsFan]

(08-30-2024, 06:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: The NFL's period is three years.  After that, you are free to negotiate a new deal free from the rookie slotting scale per league rules...

A bricklayer is free to negotiate a deal free from the union scale.  That doesnt mean the bricklaying company has to pay you that however.   If an NFL team doesnt want to negotiate a new contract after 3 years, they dont have to.  You are locked in 4 or 5 years until the rookie contract is up regardless if you think you deserve a raise.  In both cases you can ask for a raise before the union or rookie scale is up.   In both cases the company can tell you no, wait until you have put in the time for your initial hiring period.  While a comparison of the NFL to the real world could never be 100% apples to apples, the NFL is not unique in many ways including a scale for new employees, employees out working their pay rate etc...

(08-30-2024, 06:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: However, here's where your argument completely falls apart.  If a bricklayer is capable of working at a level where a fair wage is $35 an hour, but his employer refuses to increase his wage above $20 an hour, it's unrealistic to think he will continue to work at a level consummate with a $35/hr wage.  He's fully within his right to just do the bare minimum job requirements to earn the wage he's being paid, and I doubt anyone here would hold it against him.

That's absolute nonsense.  If you are getting paid to do a job, I think the expectation is you will do it to the best of your ability.  If Chase gets an extension and someone gets more money than Chase next year is Chase going to demand another raise before his extension is up?   What if Chase has a horrible year,  should he have to part of his money back?  I mean if he is not playing like a 40 million dollar per year receiver, he should give some money back.   Suggesting he should be payed based on how he has performed sounds like an incentive based contract which I dont have any problem with.  If Chase plays good, he gets paid good.  If not he doesnt get paid good.  If Chase misses games, subtract some money from his pay  If Brandon Aiyuk averages 18 yards per reception while Chase 12 subtract more money from that.  If Lamb has a 1700 yard year while Chase gets 1200, take even more from that.  If Hill has 13 TDs and Chase only 7 subtract money from that.   I think if you were to actually base his pay on how he has performed, you would find Chase lower down the list than many WRs in various categories.   Its seems Chase wants the $35m per year contract with $25m production.

[007BengalsFan]

Chase's rank in various categories among all receivers last year:



#12  in receptions: https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/reg/all/receivingreceptions/desc

#12  in yards:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receivingyards/DESC

#18  in TDs:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receivingtouchdowns/DESC

#24  in receptions over 20 yards:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receiving20plusyardseach/DESC

#9  in receptions over 40 yards:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receiving40plusyardseach/DESC


If we go to an incentive based contract Chase isnt getting paid like he wants to be paid

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-30-2024, 05:16 PM)Ell Prez Wrote: Excellent post. You don’t trade chase. You pay him. You took him #5, he’s balled out and is elite. This is absolute dream scenario when they drafted him. The bengals didn’t say “I hope chase pans out so we can trade him one day for a DE”. They drafted him because he’s elite at a very important position. Pay the man. I wish he would wait until next year, but I would probably do the same thing if I were in his position.

Don't get me wrong, if the 4yr/$160m rumor is true I don't want to give Chase that, but if it's 4yr/$132m, I think you just need to pay that even if he wants a ton of it guaranteed.

If the 4yr/$160m isn't true, and they're still balking, the Bengals should have just taken Pitts if they're not willing to shell out top-of-the-market WR money. Ideally/theoretically the Bengals won't have a top-10 (let alone a top-5) pick for the next 10+ years of Burrow's career. We're probably not getting another Chase anytime soon.

[J24]

(08-30-2024, 08:23 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Chase's rank in various categories among all receivers last year:



#12  in receptions: https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/reg/all/receivingreceptions/desc

#12  in yards:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receivingyards/DESC

#18  in TDs:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receivingtouchdowns/DESC

#24  in receptions over 20 yards:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receiving20plusyardseach/DESC

#9  in receptions over 40 yards:  https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2023/REG/all/receiving40plusyardseach/DESC


If we go to an incentive based contract Chase isnt getting paid like he wants to be paid

His QB was hurt for for the first 4 games of the season last year and then missed another games due to injury. If you are going to make an argument then don't make a disingenuous one please.

[007BengalsFan]

(08-30-2024, 08:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't get me wrong, if the 4yr/$160m rumor is true I don't want to give Chase that, but if it's 4yr/$132m, I think you just need to pay that even if he wants a ton of it guaranteed.

If the 4yr/$160m isn't true, and they're still balking, the Bengals should have just taken Pitts if they're not willing to shell out top-of-the-market WR money. Ideally/theoretically the Bengals won't have a top-10 (let alone a top-5) pick for the next 10+ years of Burrow's career. We're probably not getting another Chase anytime soon.

I completely agree.  I think the 4 year/$132m sounds fair for both Chase and the Bengals although I think its on the high side for Chase when you compare the receiving numbers like I just did for 2023 and if you look 2022 isnt much better for Chase.  Chase has had one great season and the next two havent been as good.    When you look at what all the other top WRs have signed for both 4 year and 3 year extensions, the 4/$160m is completely ridiculous so I hope that is not what Chase is after

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-30-2024, 08:49 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I completely agree.  I think the 4 year/$132m sounds fair for both Chase and the Bengals although I think its on the high side for Chase when you compare the receiving numbers like I just did for 2023 and if you look 2022 isnt much better for Chase.  Chase has had one great season and the next two havent been as good.    When you look at what all the other top WRs have signed for both 4 year and 3 year extensions, the 4/$160m is completely ridiculous so I hope that is not what Chase is after

Disagree about 22. He missed 4 games with the hip, plus the canceled Buffalo game. And still put up over 1k yards and 9 TD’s.

I believe only Adams and Evans have more TD’s than Chase’s 29 over the last 3 seasons. I know Jefferson doesn’t. Tyreek doesnt (they’re tied). Lamb doesn’t. Sun God doesn’t. Diggs doesn’t. Brown doesn’t. Just 2 guys unless I’m missing someone else.

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-30-2024, 05:50 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Then they need to come into work and actually work.  They cant sit and not work and think they are getting paid when they were contracted to do a job.  Come in and do the job you were signed on to do.  If you sit and refuse to do the job, you arent getting paid.

Here in lies the problem. He wants paid now. Do I care? Should the team care? No. He is worth every penny of what he is asking for and they're may only be a handful of teams that wouldn't pay what he is asking. Maybe? I think Chase wants to practice. He wants to play but that won't get him paid now. If that's what he wants then sit out and apply that pressure. 

[sandwedge]

Where did the 4yr-160 mil come from? I know the FO is very tight lipped about such matters.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-30-2024, 09:15 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Where did the 4yr-160 mil come from? I know the FO is very tight lipped about such matters.

Only person I’ve seen report anything specific numbers-wise is Austin Elmore.