Probably time to rebuild

[t3r3e3]

(11-08-2024, 05:50 PM)Bengalbro Wrote: Karras is solid on and off the field
Moss is fine as a secondary back and pass protector. 
Hubbard's play has increased but I could see the argument here. 

Hubbard is a glorified 3-4 DE they’re paying 4-3 money to. And, he’s been hurt a lot. The larger issue is they’ve sucked drafting pass rushers.

The single dumbest thing about the FO is for a self-professed build through the draft organization, they have a pathetically small scouting department. Most MAC schools have more scouts. Scouts and analysts are relatively cheap. You could hire 6-12 of them for the annual salary of Akeem Davis Gaither. The drafting has been piss-poor, and Mike/Katie/Troy/Duke’s approach is killing the chances of reloading via the draft. The FA scouting hasn’t been stellar either.

[Bengalbro]

(11-08-2024, 06:23 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Hubbard is a glorified 3-4 DE they’re paying 4-3 money to.  And, he’s been hurt a lot.  The larger issue is they’ve sucked drafting pass rushers.

The single dumbest thing about the FO is for a self-professed build through the draft organization,  they have a pathetically small scouting department.  Most MAC schools have more scouts.  Scouts and analysts are relatively cheap.  You could hire 6-12 of them for the annual salary of Akeem Davis Gaither.  The drafting has been piss-poor, and Mike/Katie/Troy/Duke’s approach is killing the chances of reloading via the draft.  The FA scouting hasn’t been stellar either.

Never having a lead of any note means we never play younger players which mensa they never develop

[Joelist]

(11-08-2024, 05:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Agree, I am not one to give up on a season but this team shoots themselves in the foot far too often and are losing close games which is a 
sign of bad coaching. Would be fine with keeping Zac but the rest needs to go on the coaching staff. Extend Chase, Trey and have new coaches
work with the rest. Above all though we need a new GM with a vision, Tobin needs to go.

I'm only keeping Zac if he forfeits all playcalling powers. 

Also I want a new OC not in the same lineage so we can get back under center and run enough for our line to build confidence and aggression and cohesion. 

[QueenCity]

I think it's the perfect time for a rebuild.

7 rounds of being in the top 10
Free-agency

Team can be completely rebuilt sans Burrow and Chase in 1 off-season if they have the balls to do it. Cincinnati teams aren't really known for getting rid of fan favorites that is the issue.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-08-2024, 06:57 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm only keeping Zac if he forfeits all playcalling powers. 

Also I want a new OC not in the same lineage so we can get back under center and run enough for our line to build confidence and aggression and cohesion. 

Even though the Offense is humming I agree, the Offense is riding on Burrow, Chase and the TE's coat tails right now honestly.

What is awesome is it could be so much better with a good OC that knew how to use a running game and really put Defenses on their heels.

More under Center, less Shotgun, more Play Action etc.

[Joelist]

(11-09-2024, 03:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Even though the Offense is humming I agree, the Offense is riding on Burrow, Chase and the TE's coat tails right now honestly.

What is awesome is it could be so much better with a good OC that knew how to use a running game and really put Defenses on their heels.

More under Center, less Shotgun, more Play Action etc.

Yep!

Listening to people acting like replacing the Guards will magically fix everything is annoying. No it won't - the new Guards will have the same issues because the scheme hangs offensive linemen out to dry. It does this by having close to zero deception or tendency breaking and being wildly out of balance run vs pass - this lets defenses pin their ears back. Also, lining up under center and power running using simpler blocking schemes is a great way to get linemen in sync and to give them some pride and aggression. Replace the Guards sure; replace Karras too if you have a better candidate. But fix the scheme too so we set our new interior line up to succeed not to fail.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-08-2024, 05:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: Hubbard is paid WAY above market value for an end that provides no pass rushing value. Karras is just old is the problem, it's a case where you want to get in front of it before he falls way off. Moss...not good and frankly we can find someone in the draft to be the same guy.

Karras might look better if he didn't have two sieves on either side of him.
The OG performance is subpar.

[pulses]

(11-08-2024, 06:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I liked James Daniels over Billy Price in the draft. He's a FA this off-season, only 27, and currently carrying about a 95 rating in PFF.

Teven Jenkins was who we shoulda/coulda taken over Carman. He's also a FA upcoming. 

Those 2 would be good gets for us.

[puddycat]

IMO rebuild mean youth movement, i.e. not resigning BJ Hill or Hilton, two of our better performing defensive players.
Extending Karras for 1 year was one of the dumber things I've seen as it means that the entire starting IOL contracts all expire after next year.
There are a host of younger players that we should bring back if possible: Adomitis, Sample, Rehko, Kirkland, Cody Ford (again), Davis Gaither.
I wouldn't mind bringing back Gesicki short term as a WR and never a TE.

Off-season goals:
Sign Chase.
Start getting younger and more athletic on the OL. Mims and Lee are a start, as is Eric All. Running on 3rd or 4th and short should at least be an option.
Better pass rush - I don't see how this happens with Hubbard on the team, or with Hendrickson gone.
Extend CTB, Dax, and/or Volson now if you plan on them being here.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-08-2024, 05:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can get behind replacing the DC, but the O is humming

Problem is the O is humming right now, but before the previous 2 games we had a 3 game stretch where the offense was averaging 16 points per game. There's also the fact that it seems inevitable now that they'll start 2025 in an 0-2 hole again with the offense looking bad unless something seriously changes.

[*psychdoctor*]

as bad as the work shows and the team has played; they could be sitting at 7-3 if not for 3 plays. Bengals are not a team anyone wants to face in the playoffs.

[Brownshoe]

(11-10-2024, 05:06 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: as bad as the work shows and the team has played; they could be sitting at 7-3 if not for 3 plays.  Bengals are not a team anyone wants to face in the playoffs.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-10-2024, 05:06 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: as bad as the work shows and the team has played; they could be sitting at 7-3 if not for 3 plays.  Bengals are not a team anyone wants to face in the playoffs.

If not for 3 plays the 2-7 Browns, Giants, Patriots, and Saints would be 5-4.
If not for 3 plays the 3-5 Cowboys would be 6-2.
If not for 4 plays the 3-6 Jets would be 7-2.
If not for 4 plays the 4-5 Colts would be 8-1.
If not for 5 plays the 2-7 Jaguars would be 7-2.

If you take every game lost by <7 points "a W if not for one play", there's only going to be like 4 losing teams (instead of the current 15) left in the NFL, so nearly every bad team's fans can play that game.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-10-2024, 07:30 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If not for 3 plays the 2-7 Browns, Giants, Patriots, and Saints would be 5-4.
If not for 3 plays the 3-5 Cowboys would be 6-2.
If not for 4 plays the 3-6 Jets would be 7-2.
If not for 4 plays the 4-5 Colts would be 8-1.
If not for 5 plays the 2-7 Jaguars would be 7-2.

If you take every game lost by <7 points "a W if not for one play", there's only going to be like 4 losing teams (instead of the current 15) left in the NFL, so nearly every bad team's fans can play that game.

IIRC even the 0-16 Browns lost a bunch of close games. Bad teams always find a way to lose.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(11-08-2024, 05:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: We are actually in a good place to clean house.

On the offensive side you could....

• Cut Cappa and save 8 Million of his 10 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Karras and save 4.8 Million of his 6 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Moss and save 3.5 Million of his 5 Million Cap hit next year
  

On the defensive side you could...

• Cut Sam Hubbard and save 9.6 Million on his 11 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Sheldon Rankings and save 9.5 Million on his 11 Million cap hit next year
• Cut Geno Stone and save 6.5 Million on his 8 Million Cap hit next year.
  

This would add nearly 42 Million to the already 65 Million we are projected to have next season. We could enter the off season with 100 Million and while Chase is due a deal my guess is his cap number for 25 which is already 21.2 million would maybe only increase 4-6 million. Assuming we resign Trey expect his cap number to go up probably 6-8 million so we are now 10-12 Million off of the 100. 

You now have about 90 Million to fill roughly 20 roster spots. They will have 6 draft picks and we can assume the cap hit for those will be about 4 Million so let's say we got 86 Million to fill 14 spots. You can assume 6-8 of those will be veterans on smaller deals, probably something with a cap hit around 2-3 Million so let's call it about 15 Million for those. This leaves us with about 70 Million in cap to fill the last 6-8 slots.

I think with that money we could definitely find some IOL, CB, and DE upgrades.

Burrow's contract can also be reworked to save significant cap next year, IIRC. Around $20 mil.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-09-2024, 05:32 PM)Joelist Wrote: Yep!

Listening to people acting like replacing the Guards will magically fix everything is annoying. No it won't - the new Guards will have the same issues because the scheme hangs offensive linemen out to dry. It does this by having close to zero deception or tendency breaking and being wildly out of balance run vs pass - this lets defenses pin their ears back. Also, lining up under center and power running using simpler blocking schemes is a great way to get linemen in sync and to give them some pride and aggression. Replace the Guards sure; replace Karras too if you have a better candidate. But fix the scheme too so we set our new interior line up to succeed not to fail.

Completely agree. The coaching, scheme, play calling sabotages the OL and puts too much pressure on them and the QB.

Just the way it is and it needs to stop.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-10-2024, 02:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: IIRC even the 0-16 Browns lost a bunch of close games. Bad teams always find a way to lose.

Yup, they lost 6 games by less than 7 points. So those all could be "if not for one play" games.

[cinci4life]

Still just a game out of a playoff spot with Colts going to lose and Denver blowing it against KC having a 31 yard FG blocked at the buzzer.

[Timanky12]

If you’re going to let this front office and coaches do the rebuild, don’t expect anything different. They haven’t fixed the defense or the rush offense in 6 years, what makes you think they can do it now.

[Timanky12]

(11-10-2024, 05:06 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: as bad as the work shows and the team has played; they could be sitting at 7-3 if not for 3 plays.  Bengals are not a team anyone wants to face in the playoffs.

Coulda, shoulda, but they are not. Your record says how you finish games.