Probably time to rebuild

[pulses]

(11-09-2024, 06:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Karras might look better if he didn't have two sieves on either side of him.
The OG performance is subpar.

When OBJ is your best rated OL at 67.7 and Karras as 61.4 you're in trouble. Cappa and Volson both need replaced at the very least. It's pretty bad when a rookie OC in Frazier has a pff of 85.8 and we could have drafted him......also goes to show just how BAD our IOL really is.

[Frank Booth]

(11-10-2024, 07:46 PM)pulses Wrote: When OBJ is your best rated OL at 67.7 and Karras as 61.4 you're in trouble. Cappa and Volson both need replaced at the very least. It's pretty bad when a rookie OC in Frazier has a pff of 85.8 and we could have drafted him......also goes to show just how BAD our IOL really is.

This roster is gonna need at least another full season to get on this right track. The front office and duke really screwed this team over

[pulses]

(11-10-2024, 08:46 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: This roster is gonna need at least another full season to get on this right track. The front office and duke really screwed this team over

They did and mark my words they'll stroll Volson and Cappa back out as starters next year too. But we all know they shouldn't.

[bengalsboy]

(11-08-2024, 05:46 PM)Bengalbro Wrote: I wouldnt cut Moss or Hubbard or karras. But the other 3 I would

And I would try to extend Hill-Hilton and Gesicki asap

Why would you not cut them? They are all over paid,and are not any good.They can easily be replaced through the draft.

[ERIC1]

(11-08-2024, 05:17 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm starting to think it's rebuild time. Starting with getting rid of Lou and Pitcher and only allowing Zac to stay if he gives up ANY control over play calling.

Find a DC known for fundamentals (like Tackling) and a rational scheme. We have some pieces so let's put what we have in a realistic scheme, get back to fundamentals and build off these foundations. We can keep Trey, Jenkins, McKinnley, Battle, Wilson, Pratt and Murphy. The rest needs to be rebuilt.

In the same vein find an OC with a rational scheme and play calling tendencies. Settle on a line scheme and then build to it. OBJr and Mims can function in either a zone or a power scheme. Get us under center either way and run more often to create a culture of winning up front.

Sign Chase, either trade or let Tee go. Then comes the biggest part - sit with Burrow and Chase and no matter what it takes SELL THEM on the rebuild. If it takes Tobin going away do it. If it takes expanding scouting do it. And when we draft we draft players to fit our schemes - which hopefully have been set and are more rational.

This is of course a fantasy because it requires ownership to get their heads out of their navels.

team is having a tough year..much do to early injuries..this team can play with any team in the league it does not need blown aprt..it needs a little more gravatas and fine tuning..  things don't need blown aprt..nor does a coach need to sit down and appease any player or players

[ERIC1]

(11-10-2024, 08:46 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: This roster is gonna need at least another full season to get on this right track. The front office and duke really screwed this team over

this "roster" can play with any team in the league..I like Taylor but he still loses vision and momentum occasionally..Of course Belechick was not so hot his first 5 years in the league..I think we will see some good stuff the rest of the way..but it might be too late to make a diffrence

[ERIC1]

(11-08-2024, 06:57 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm only keeping Zac if he forfeits all playcalling powers. 

Also I want a new OC not in the same lineage so we can get back under center and run enough for our line to build confidence and aggression and cohesion. 

we have one of the best offenses in the league

[ERIC1]

(11-08-2024, 05:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Agree, I am not one to give up on a season but this team shoots themselves in the foot far too often and are losing close games which is a 
sign of bad coaching. Would be fine with keeping Zac but the rest needs to go on the coaching staff. Extend Chase, Trey and have new coaches
work with the rest. Above all though we need a new GM with a vision, Tobin needs to go.

some coaching adjustments would be nice

[Frank Booth]

(11-11-2024, 11:14 AM)ERIC1 Wrote: this "roster" can play with any team in the league..I like Taylor but he still loses vision and momentum occasionally..Of course Belechick was not so hot his first 5 years in the league..I think we will see some good stuff the rest of the way..but it might be too late to make a diffrence

Burrow and Chase can play with any team in the league. The defense and guards can not

[SladeX]

(11-08-2024, 05:17 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm starting to think it's rebuild time. Starting with getting rid of Lou and Pitcher and only allowing Zac to stay if he gives up ANY control over play calling.

Find a DC known for fundamentals (like Tackling) and a rational scheme. We have some pieces so let's put what we have in a realistic scheme, get back to fundamentals and build off these foundations. We can keep Trey, Jenkins, McKinnley, Battle, Wilson, Pratt and Murphy. The rest needs to be rebuilt.

In the same vein find an OC with a rational scheme and play calling tendencies. Settle on a line scheme and then build to it. OBJr and Mims can function in either a zone or a power scheme. Get us under center either way and run more often to create a culture of winning up front.

Sign Chase, either trade or let Tee go. Then comes the biggest part - sit with Burrow and Chase and no matter what it takes SELL THEM on the rebuild. If it takes Tobin going away do it. If it takes expanding scouting do it. And when we draft we draft players to fit our schemes - which hopefully have been set and are more rational.

This is of course a fantasy because it requires ownership to get their heads out of their navels.

We HAVE TO increase the scouting. I agree otherwise.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-08-2024, 05:45 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: You nailed the cap situation. They should 10000% make all those cuts you mentioned (save maybe the Karras one), but I really fear they won't. 

They can free up a ton of space and basically "redo" their FA aquisitions this off-season and rebuild/upgrade this roster quite quickly if they really wanted to. It's going to take some cutthroat cuts, though. Do they have the balls to make some serious business decisions? Are they willing to look a guy like Hubbard in the face and say "see ya later"? 

It is less about cap but hitting on FAs we have invested alot on oline morre than ever in bengals history.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-11-2024, 11:17 AM)ERIC1 Wrote: some coaching adjustments would be nice

For sure, I don't know what the heck has happened to Lou. He used to be very good at making half time adjustments.

This year his Defense has just gotten significantly worse in the 2nd half.

[007BengalsFan]

(11-11-2024, 02:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For sure, I don't know what the heck has happened to Lou. He used to be very good at making half time adjustments.

This year his Defense has just gotten significantly worse in the 2nd half.

Its hard for 2nd half adjustments to work when you dont have the talent.  We have no one on the defensive line that can get pressure except Hendrickson.  If you bring extra guys to blitz that leaves less help in pass coverage for a defense that is horrible in pass coverage.  CTB is supposed to be our best corner and he gets beat in zone coverage.  If Lou switches to man coverage, he also gets beat.  What can you do at that point? We have a lack of talent on the defensive line and a lack of talent in the secondary.  Its very hard to make adjustments to cover that lack of talent up.  

Im fine with getting rid of the entire coaching staff and bringing in fresh blood but even if you do that you need to upgrade the talent on defense and upgrade the talent on the interior offensive line.  I think part of the problem is we are paying too many guys good money that just are not getting the job done i.e. Cappa, Karras, Moss, Rankins, Hubbard, Stone.  You also have several guys that have been drafted that arent that good but are playing significant minutes because that is who the Bengals drafted and they have no other options at this point.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-10-2024, 08:46 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: This roster is gonna need at least another full season to get on this right track. The front office and duke really screwed this team over

(11-11-2024, 06:20 AM)pulses Wrote: They did and mark my words they'll stroll Volson and Cappa back out as starters next year too. But we all know they shouldn't.

Bengals for some reason went after dudes who were more limited athletically than the scheme seemed to demand.
I also am not sure if it's because of the scheme dictating it or not, but I don't see the OL getting push off the LOS in the running game like I would think for how big these dudes are.
I know some of the playcalling is asking for pulling and lateral agility vs bulldozing the defense back, but damn it seems like the OL never bullies anyone.

Out of all the starting OL, here was their RAS (relative athletic scores) coming out of college:
OBJ - 0.70 (not a typo)
Volson - 6.04
Karras - 4.93
Cappa - 4.11
Mims - 9.59

While RAS isn't the end-all, be-all to determine a good player vs bad player, it can be indicative of some limitations they may have when compared to elite guys.
Overall, the OL is very unathletic.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Yet people wonder why we have no run game and think replacing Pollack will actually do anything. How about blaming the guy who put THAT line together in the first place.

[*bengalfan74*]

An O and D line rebuild for sure

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-11-2024, 05:13 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Its hard for 2nd half adjustments to work when you dont have the talent.  We have no one on the defensive line that can get pressure except Hendrickson.  If you bring extra guys to blitz that leaves less help in pass coverage for a defense that is horrible in pass coverage.  CTB is supposed to be our best corner and he gets beat in zone coverage.  If Lou switches to man coverage, he also gets beat.  What can you do at that point? We have a lack of talent on the defensive line and a lack of talent in the secondary.  Its very hard to make adjustments to cover that lack of talent up.  

Im fine with getting rid of the entire coaching staff and bringing in fresh blood but even if you do that you need to upgrade the talent on defense and upgrade the talent on the interior offensive line.  I think part of the problem is we are paying too many guys good money that just are not getting the job done i.e. Cappa, Karras, Moss, Rankins, Hubbard, Stone.  You also have several guys that have been drafted that arent that good but are playing significant minutes because that is who the Bengals drafted and they have no other options at this point.

We do need to add another pass rusher clearly as it is looking like Hubbard is washed and Murphy clearly isn't making the jump soon 
enough. Rankins was good as a pass rusher as a Texan, what happened to him? I think it is coaching more than talent myself. Hobby 
is a terrible DL coach and cannot coach up his players, Lou cannot put players in the right position to succeed and he cannot adjust 
like he used to from some reason.

CTB was really good late in his rookie season and in the Playoffs. Players getting worse is a bad sign of the coaching situation IMO.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-11-2024, 07:35 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yet people wonder why we have no run game and think replacing Pollack will actually do anything. How about blaming the guy who put THAT line together in the first place.

Im so tired of the free pass of polllack, we have signed 5 oline over past 3 years as FAs and i believe each has worse grades now with Bengals plus tell me 1 draft pick under his time that made good   strides? Time to move on the 6 yr. Influence of Pollack is a disaster

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-11-2024, 09:11 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Im so tired of the free pass of polllack, we have signed 5 oline over past 3 years as FAs and i believe each has worse grades now with Bengals plus tell me 1 draft pick under his time that made good   strides? Time to move on the 6 yr. Influence of Pollack is a disaster

I couldn’t care less if they fire Pollack. But to expect a bunch of insanely unathletic dudes (literally 4/5 of our OL) to actually produce a decent running game is pure folly. Duke needs to fundamentally change the way he assembles both sides of the trenches. It’s been a problem for forever.

[pulses]

(11-11-2024, 07:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals for some reason went after dudes who were more limited athletically than the scheme seemed to demand.
I also am not sure if it's because of the scheme dictating it or not, but I don't see the OL getting push off the LOS in the running game like I would think for how big these dudes are.
I know some of the playcalling is asking for pulling and lateral agility vs bulldozing the defense back, but damn it seems like the OL never bullies anyone.

Out of all the starting OL, here was their RAS (relative athletic scores) coming out of college:
OBJ - 0.70 (not a typo)
Volson - 6.04
Karras - 4.93
Cappa - 4.11
Mims - 9.59

While RAS isn't the end-all, be-all to determine a good player vs bad player, it can be indicative of some limitations they may have when compared to elite guys.
Overall, the OL is very unathletic.

Hilton's RAS was pathetic as well. I think some players work harder than others and I tend to think some of our OL are LAZY and also the scheme doesn't fit. Pollack should be the first one out the door tomorrow.