Troy Walters

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-09-2025, 04:52 PM)jj22 Wrote: Someone asked earlier in the thread if Walters gets credit for Chase and Tee and I think we got our answer.

Should he not? These guys, especially Chase were great right out of the bat, but they HAVE improved as WR's under Troy Walters...

[Essex Johnson]

(01-09-2025, 02:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm trying to find out why we have no WR after 4 years outside of Chase and Tee. Two receivers that came in as "no brainer picks" according to some given their talent and not real need to "develop" outside of experience and being pros. 

Now Yoshi is debatable. 

But guys. In theory in 6 years this Offense hasn't produced any receivers outside of the top 2 highly drafted players. Given those players it can be excused, but it should be legitimately discussed. Is that good? Are we ok with that? Isn't this worthy of discussion given we have to now break the bank on Higgins instead of a defensive star or to OG?

You probably answered your question, we have not prioritized WR position because of Chase and Higgins. I still like you to address 2 wrs we drafted last 2 years, jones and burton,  are saying Walters is at fault for these 2 and you do understand that  since Chase , we have only drafted The three mentioned and the one not hurt or a cluster of trouble meaning Yosi has developed as a 6th round pick..

[jj22]

(01-09-2025, 05:48 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: You probably answered your question, we have not prioritized WR position because of Chase and Higgins. I still like you to address 2 wrs we drafted last 2 years, jones and burton,  are saying Walters is at fault for these 2 and you do understand that  since Chase , we have only drafted The three mentioned and the one not hurt or a cluster of trouble meaning Yosi has developed as a 6th round pick..

He hasn't developed any of the UDFA or practice squad players either. Which some of the coaches dismissed / been criticized around here at least have. We have had receivers outside of Chase, Tee and Yoshi on the roster believe it or not. 

Look I get he "developed" Chase from Great to Greater. Tee from good to gooder.

Hobby got career years out of Trey, Hill, Reader, etc but that didn't stop the board from calling for his head.

Bettcher got career years out of Pratt and Wilson. Developed UDFA's. That didn't stop him from getting fired.

I'm not arguing these coaches shouldn't have been let go. I'm arguing Walters gets a bye around here and maybe we should be more critical. How quick we forget the whining around here when Tee is injured and no one can step up outside of Chase. Now me saying something shouldn't cause everyone to have amnesia. I get people hate to hear things from me, but blatant amnesia.... That's doing to much to avoid reality. 

Reality is we are in this position (needing to re-sign Tee) because we have no other choice. And we can blame Tobin for the lack of talent, but that didn't save the other coaches the criticism around here. 

[jj22]

And yes the defense got a lot of picks but only in 2023 and 2024 did they commit to the Dline. And those 2024 high (if you folks are counting 3rd round picks) picks developed.

Before that they were drafting 3rd and 4th rounders just like they did with the receiver room.

Interestingly enough they really committed to the secondary with those high picks on defense and those coaches remain. 

[Essex Johnson]

(01-09-2025, 06:29 PM)jj22 Wrote: He hasn't developed any of the UDFA or practice squad players either. Which some of the coaches dismissed / been criticized around here at least have. We have had receivers outside of Chase, Tee and Yoshi on the roster believe it or not. 

Look I get he "developed" Chase from Great to Greater. Tee from good to gooder.

Hobby got career years out of Trey, Hill, Reader, etc but that didn't stop the board from calling for his head.

Bettcher got career years out of Pratt and Wilson. Developed UDFA's. That didn't stop him from getting fired.

I'm not arguing these coaches shouldn't have been let go. I'm arguing Walters gets a bye around here and maybe we should be more critical. How quick we forget the whining around here when Tee is injured and no one can step up outside of Chase. Now me saying something shouldn't cause everyone to have amnesia. I get people hate to hear things from me, but blatant amnesia.... That's doing to much to avoid reality. 

Reality is we are in this position (needing to re-sign Tee) because we have no other choice. And we can blame Tobin for the lack of talent, but that didn't save the other coaches the criticism around here. 

Your argument just does not hold much water when your main arguments are practice squad and udfa players that across thecuear rarely become regular starters...moving on nothing let to say 

[jj22]

My main argument is why fire  Hobby, Blettcher and not him if the argument is development and the excuse is talent.

I’ve sprinkled in that Chase and Tee were supposedly can’t miss picks said by many on this board to question why then the credit for their development.

But my main argument is he gets a pass when we desperately needed players to develop enough to take Boyd’s place let alone Tee’s. 

The failure isn’t only in replacing Tee it’s replacing Boyd too. The wr position group as a hole has to improve. We have Chase and even if we have Tee for the future we have to work around him missing time. And I guess I’m the only one that remembers how no receiver could help Chase when Tee was out.

[jj22]

The good point people highlighted was the lack of urgency to replace Tee and Boyd in the draft given how long they knew they weren’t going to re-sign them.

[Sled21]

(01-09-2025, 11:05 PM)jj22 Wrote: My main argument is why fire  Hobby, Blettcher and not him if the argument is development and the excuse is talent.

I’ve sprinkled in that Chase and Tee were supposedly can’t miss picks said by many on this board to question why then the credit for their development.

But my main argument is he gets a pass when we desperately needed players to develop enough to take Boyd’s place let alone Tee’s. 

The failure isn’t only in replacing Tee it’s replacing Boyd too. The wr position group as a hole has to improve. We have Chase and even if we have Tee for the future we have to work around him missing time. And I guess I’m the only one that remembers how no receiver could help Chase when Tee was out.

So how much say do you really think a position coach has in the players he is given? People act like the position coaches have something to do with getting replacements for stars that leave. Reality is, they get a note on the desk saying, "So and so is coming through FA or the draft... add him to your board."

[KillerGoose]

(01-10-2025, 12:10 PM)Sled21 Wrote: So how much say do you really think a position coach has in the players he is given? People act like the position coaches have something to do with getting replacements for stars that leave. Reality is, they get a note on the desk saying, "So and so is coming through FA or the draft... add him to your board."

You swap one end of the spectrum for another. Positional coaches do not have final say nor are they just "left a note". It's somewhere in the middle. They are consulted along with the offensive coordinator/HC/whoever else may need to be in on the conversation. This is particularly for the draft. Here is an article written by an NFL scout that describes what the process looks like. Relevant quote below...

Quote:We would go through the player's position by position and rank the players within their position. We would start off on one side of the ball and start with the offensive line. In the room at the time would be all the scouts, the Offensive Coordinator, the O-Line coach, the Head Coach, and the GM.

Everyone works together to create a profile and then someone, usually the GM/owner/maybe HC has final say. If a positional coach doesn't like someone, he may still get overruled. 

[*Synric*]

Ja'Marr Chase was a much much better receiver in 2022 than 2021 after a year with Troy Walters. I've said it repeatedly and will die on that hill lol.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-09-2025, 06:29 PM)jj22 Wrote: He hasn't developed any of the UDFA or practice squad players either. Which some of the coaches dismissed / been criticized around here at least have. We have had receivers outside of Chase, Tee and Yoshi on the roster believe it or not. 

Look I get he "developed" Chase from Great to Greater. Tee from good to gooder.

Hobby got career years out of Trey, Hill, Reader, etc but that didn't stop the board from calling for his head.

Bettcher got career years out of Pratt and Wilson. Developed UDFA's. That didn't stop him from getting fired.

I'm not arguing these coaches shouldn't have been let go. I'm arguing Walters gets a bye around here and maybe we should be more critical. How quick we forget the whining around here when Tee is injured and no one can step up outside of Chase. Now me saying something shouldn't cause everyone to have amnesia. I get people hate to hear things from me, but blatant amnesia.... That's doing to much to avoid reality. 

Reality is we are in this position (needing to re-sign Tee) because we have no other choice. And we can blame Tobin for the lack of talent, but that didn't save the other coaches the criticism around here. 

Well for Hobby's sake, outside of Hendrickson's 17.5, the rest of the DL (9 guys) only got 17 sacks.
And the Bengals spent $49.9 mill on the DL position, which was 3rd highest in the league.
And they invested 1st rounder, and 2nd rounder, and three 3rd rounders in addition to those costly veterans.

When you spend that much toward a position, you expect better than 36 sacks, which was 25th in the league.

For Anarumo, the defense has steadily declined in Points Allowed since 2022.
2022 - 6th in Points Allowed
2023 (no Bates) - 21st in Points Allowed
2024 (no Reader, Awuzie) -  25th in Points Allowed

Steady decline because you can't get your replacements to at least keep around middle of the pack indicates it may be time to go.

Walters, OTOH, has the WRs being as productive as they have been in quite some time.
2022 - 3168 yards among the WRs
2023 - 3037 yards among the WRs
2024 - 3234 yards among the WRs

I somewhat agree that he hasn't really developed anyone outside of maybe Iosivas, but he may not have been let go because we're not seeing declined performance for the unit like we saw with the DL for Hobby and the defense as a whole for Anarumo.

I'm not sure why the LB coach was let go other than perhaps the missed tackles?

[KillerGoose]

What exactly is meant by develop? What exactly are people looking for?

I think there is plenty of evidence that Iosivas progressed from year one to year two, for example. You can look at the raw stats and see that. Boyd left and Iosivas saw his playing time increase. He ran nearly 4x the amount of routes he did his rookie year (573 to 151), increased his yards per route ran by roughly 10% (.84 to 0.77) and caught six TDs. He did this while, importantly, learning a new position. Most of Andrei's snaps were in the slot this year (52.4%).

You can watch the tape and see improvement in his game, too. More consistent with his footwork which is leading to him getting into his routes quicker. I personally think he handled press man better this year. He scored a TD against KC where it was a goalline situation, press man with outside leverage and Andrei did a great job of freezing the defender, eliminating his leverage, and then cutting the route off to get open for a touchdown. Now, it wasn't against a great corner (Nazeeh Johnson) but it was still a really good job. When Andrei was working in these situations his rookie year, everything was really fast. He exploded off the line and tried to beat you with his athleticism. If that didn't work, he would try to be physical with you and move you around to generate a throwing lane. This year, he was more patient and allowed technique to do the work instead of relying on his physical traits alone. Look at this touchdown, for example...



Look at the patience. He freezes him by taking hesitation steps and then B steps out of his route creating the separation to score. Here is the KC play I mentioned earlier...



Again, the patience. Johnson has outside leverage, Iosivas freezes him and eliminates the leverage, takes the outside and breaks the route off to score. This is great. Now, compare it to these plays from last season...



Andrei is just bullying his way into this touchdown. He comes off the line fast, no set up and relies on his physicality to win.



Similar story. Andrei does jab step to attack his leverage, hand washes the hands away but doesn't win cleanly. Everything is fast. He wins a tough catch at the end.

Iosivas played smoother this season. He played with more patience. How much better he can get I have no idea. This may be his ceiling but there is definitely development in his game. 

[Speedy Thomas]

So the Bengals have the best passing attack in the NFL in spite of the WR coach?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-10-2025, 06:00 PM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: So the Bengals have the best passing attack in the NFL in spite of the WR coach?

Probably 3rd best passing attack unless you're only talking about just raw passing yards per game, in which case yes we had more yards than them passing via greater pass attempts that we had to completely sacrifice a balanced offense in order to get.

[007BengalsFan]

(01-10-2025, 04:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Well for Hobby's sake, outside of Hendrickson's 17.5, the rest of the DL (9 guys) only got 17 sacks.
And the Bengals spent $49.9 mill on the DL position, which was 3rd highest in the league.
And they invested 1st rounder, and 2nd rounder, and three 3rd rounders in addition to those costly veterans.

When you spend that much toward a position, you expect better than 36 sacks, which was 25th in the league.

For Anarumo, the defense has steadily declined in Points Allowed since 2022.
2022 - 6th in Points Allowed
2023 (no Bates) - 21st in Points Allowed
2024 (no Reader, Awuzie) -  25th in Points Allowed

Steady decline because you can't get your replacements to at least keep around middle of the pack indicates it may be time to go.

Maybe the problem isnt the coaches couldnt coach up the talent maybe the problem is the talent the front office drafted and brought in just isnt that good.  You end up replacing good talent with bad then act surprised the defense gets worse when you now have less talent on it for the coaches to work with.   People have been pointing out this was going to happen the last 2 years letting our best players leave but then some act completely surprised like they dont understand how the defense became worse

If the Bengals management really thinks the problem is the defensive coaches didnt coach up all this great talent we drafted and brought in, with all the money and draft picks spent on defense, I say they should stand behind that position.  Bring everyone back on defense.  Let the new defensive coaching staff work with all the same talent the current staff had to work with and see how they do.  The excuse is we should have done much better.  Ok, lets see it with the new staff.  This off season, spend the money on Tee and Chase and use the early draft picks to add a couple of guards to the offensive line, a real #3 receiver, maybe a TE and some O-line depth.  Let's see where that get us next football season.