Tough Sledding for Al Golden

[007BengalsFan]

(02-21-2025, 03:31 PM)Joelist Wrote: After the Rankins release we now have three 3Ts (assuming we extend Hill) and like most of last season no nose. This is because Jackson while looking better as the season progressed and flashing flashed mostly at 3T. So I expect them to go after a big NT at some point.

Right now the Bengals starters for next season are the two rookies.  While I was happy with some of the things they did, the Bengals cant expect to go into the season with those guys as starters.  Jenkins PFF grade was 45.4 overall with a 46.6 run grade and 53.5 pass rush grade.  Jackson had a 53.0 grade overall with 51.2 pass and 53.1 run.  The Bengals defense will get shredded if that is the starting interior defensive line.  The Bengals need 2 quality free agent DTs and not a couple of JAGs.   If you draft another DT in the 2025 draft, is that going to help much this coming season?  I wouldnt count on that especially with the Bengals drafting woes.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-21-2025, 07:07 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Right now the Bengals starters for next season are the two rookies.  While I was happy with some of the things they did, the Bengals cant expect to go into the season with those guys as starters.  Jenkins PFF grade was 45.4 overall with a 46.6 run grade and 53.5 pass rush grade.  Jackson had a 53.0 grade overall with 51.2 pass and 53.1 run.  The Bengals defense will get shredded if that is the starting interior defensive line.  The Bengals need 2 quality free agent DTs and not a couple of JAGs.   If you draft another DT in the 2025 draft, is that going to help much this coming season?  I wouldnt count on that especially with the Bengals drafting woes.

Bring back BJ Hill who is just as good as any FA DT out there and draft Kenneth Grant at 17.

This will let Kris and McKinnley grow behind them.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-21-2025, 07:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Bring back BJ Hill who is just as good as any FA DT out there and draft Kenneth Grant at 17.

This will let Kris and McKinnley grow behind them.

I think that would be a fantastic plan.

[007BengalsFan]

(02-21-2025, 07:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Bring back BJ Hill who is just as good as any FA DT out there and draft Kenneth Grant at 17.

This will let Kris and McKinnley grow behind them.

While Hill is not an elite DT, he is a good, above average DT.  I'm sure there are a few teams that would consider adding him.  I'm guessing at this point BJ will test free agency to see what he can get.  I do think the Bengals have a little window right now to get something done if they want him back.  I have seen the projection of a 2 year 18 million dollar contract.  If Hill goes to the open market, maybe he doesnt get the offers he thinks he will get and by that point the Bengals may be after Milton Williams or some other DT.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-21-2025, 07:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think that would be a fantastic plan.

BJ Hill, Kenneth Grant, Kris Jenkins and McKinnley Jackson sounds like a pretty good DT room to me with upside.

(02-21-2025, 07:55 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: While Hill is not an elite DT, he is a good, above average DT.  I'm sure there are a few teams that would consider adding him.  I'm guessing at this point BJ will test free agency to see what he can get.  I do think the Bengals have a little window right now to get something done if they want him back.  I have seen the projection of a 2 year 18 million dollar contract.  If Hill goes to the open market, maybe he doesnt get the offers he thinks he will get and by that point the Bengals may be after Milton Williams or some other DT.

BJ is actually more proven than Milton Williams and should be cheaper as Milton is chasing big money after the SB where he played great.

Milton played around a lot of great players that may or may not have made him look even better than he is. Will be interested in seeing how 
well Milton plays without so much talent around him. I like the DT from the Cowboys Odighizuwa or whatever his name is but his stats are no
better than BJ either. I would give BJ a decent offer right now and hope he takes it so he doesn't hit the market.

[samhain]

(02-22-2025, 05:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: BJ Hill, Kenneth Grant, Kris Jenkins and McKinnley Jackson sounds like a pretty good DT room to me with upside.


BJ is actually more proven than Milton Williams and should be cheaper as Milton is chasing big money after the SB where he played great.

Milton played around a lot of great players that may or may not have made him look even better than he is. Will be interested in seeing how 
well Milton plays without so much talent around him. I like the DT from the Cowboys Odighizuwa or whatever his name is but his stats are no
better than BJ either. I would give BJ a decent offer right now and hope he takes it so he doesn't hit the market.

I like Hill and would love to have him back.  He's the Fred Sanford of the d-line.  It looks like he's gonna die at least once a game, then he's back in the next series.

As for Osa, I think I like that idea a bit more.

[007BengalsFan]

(02-22-2025, 05:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: ...I would give BJ a decent offer right now and hope he takes it so he doesn't hit the market.

That was my thinking as well.  Sign BJ if he is looking for a reasonable amount.  Spotrac is projecting a 2 year 18 million dollar contract.  Bengals should do that if Hill is in that ballpark.  If Hill gets too greedy and thinks he is beyond that, it could end up backfiring.  Lets say Hill wants 12 million + per year, goes to free agency and doesnt get any interest for that amount of money.  At that point Hill would need to take whatever he could get which may be less than the Bengals offer.   The Bengals could have moved on to someone else once free agency hits.   I say get the deal done now if you can so neither the Bengals nor Hill have to worry about him hitting free agency.

[puddycat]

(02-21-2025, 07:07 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Right now the Bengals starters for next season are the two rookies. 

This is what I was worried about.  It puts us in a position where resigning Hill and his 700 snaps is a Reader-like "must do".  Not drafting a DT in a draft class this strong is just stupid.  I would have liked to sign a bridge player like Jarran Reed (who may get pushed out of Seattle by Bryan Muphy II.) or sign a 2nd contract NT like Naquan Jones or Bobby Brown. Any of whom wouldn't pull a paycheck that requires them to start over ascending players. Then draft a DT3 or NT, depending on what's available and what you think about McKinnley Jackson.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(02-24-2025, 07:07 AM)puddycat Wrote: This is what I was worried about.  It puts us in a position where resigning Hill and his 700 snaps is a Reader-like "must do".  Not drafting a DT in a draft class this strong is just stupid.  I would have liked to sign a bridge player like Jarran Reed (who may get pushed out of Seattle by Bryan Muphy II.) or sign a 2nd contract NT like Naquan Jones or Bobby Brown. Any of whom wouldn't pull a paycheck that requires them to start over ascending players. Then draft a DT3 or NT, depending on what's available and what you think about McKinnley Jackson.

I don't see how bringing back BJ Hill would preclude us taking a DT in the draft at some point. 

We play 4 regularly and usually carry 5. We only have 2 guys signed. And frankly, while there were flashes of good play, neither guy screamed "pencil me in as a starting DT for the next decade" to me. At best, they were both rotational level guys. 

We should be looking for 2 starter level players at DT + 1 reserve. In addition to: 2 starting Guards, a WR2, and DE2. And then you have Hilton & Gesicki.

At DT, we need a pass rush guy, and probably another NT type. Ideally, guys who could do both would be fantastic. And Hill, despite not being spectacular as a pass rusher or run stopper, is above average at both. Which is rare for a DT. He can work next to a run suffer type (Jackson, Grant, Walker), or a pass rusher type (Rankins, Nolen). 

Most lists I see have Hill as a top 3-4 FA DT. Gesicki as a top 2 TE (though he is really WR3/WR4 for us). And Hilton around #7 in the CB class. These are good players who are still contributing at a good level. 

I'd much rather try to bring them back and part with the likes of Cappa, Hubbard, Volson, Moss, Pratt, Stone, D. Sample, and/or McPherson if I need more cap space. 

[lone bengal]

Quickest fix would be to improve the D-line. It starts with stopping the run we can’t give up 6 plus yards on early downs and we obviously need to improve the rush. I’m just rolling with the CB’s we got we have too many high picks invested there. Even tho I hate Geno Stone and think Battle is a liability in coverage it dosnet matter if we don’t win up front so I’m not going crazy at safety. It’s a great draft for DT ‘s and DE’s so it hits us perfect there’s starters going well into round 3. I’d would like to sign 2 mid level guards and wouldn’t even mind if we draft 3 d-lineman in the first 4 rounds.. Far as free agency assuming we extend Higgins and Hendrickson I can’t see us spending top dollar and it’s not a great class for D-line. I would like Hill back but I’m also not giving him a big contract he’s 30 and his best year was when he came off the bench. Think Hill is ranked as the 2nd best FA DT feel like someone will overpay for him. There could be some good bargain DT’s. Poona Ford signed a 1 year 1.7 million dollar contract with the Chargers he was a stout run defender and provided a rush. His overall PFF grade was an 85.1 had a 78 run stop and 71 pass rush grade. Tier Tart also had a solid year. I would try to do a 2-1 type deal at D-line and sign multiple solid guys then would go DT and Edge with the 1st two picks. Could
go Grant at 17th then an edge or edge at 17 and DT in rd2. We also probably have to sign a mid level starting LB. Lou usually liked to have 5 D-lineman and 2 backers versus heavy formations. I heard Golden prefers 3 backers and 4 D-lineman. Assuming Pratt is cut all we have is Wilson. ADG is a free agent and more of a special teams guy than a starter.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-23-2025, 10:16 PM)samhain Wrote: I like Hill and would love to have him back.  He's the Fred Sanford of the d-line.  It looks like he's gonna die at least once a game, then he's back in the next series.

As for Osa, I think I like that idea a bit more.

I like the Fred Sanford reference lol

BJ's stats actually look better than Osa's which is a little wild to me as Osa always stood out to me on the Cowboys DL.

I think he has more upside than BJ and is a touch younger, but might be more expensive because of it.

(02-24-2025, 12:51 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: That was my thinking as well.  Sign BJ if he is looking for a reasonable amount.  Spotrac is projecting a 2 year 18 million dollar contract.  Bengals should do that if Hill is in that ballpark.  If Hill gets too greedy and thinks he is beyond that, it could end up backfiring.  Lets say Hill wants 12 million + per year, goes to free agency and doesnt get any interest for that amount of money.  At that point Hill would need to take whatever he could get which may be less than the Bengals offer.   The Bengals could have moved on to someone else once free agency hits.   I say get the deal done now if you can so neither the Bengals nor Hill have to worry about him hitting free agency.

Yeah, give him a fair contract offer now and see if he takes it. Like you say, it might be smarter for him to take it honestly.

He would be the leader of our DT's and pretty much guaranteed the starting 3-tech spot going into this year here. Him getting a great 
player like Kenneth Grant to play next to could up his game quite a bit and this would let Kris and McKinnley grow behind them.

[samhain]

I'm back and forth on Jalon Walker, but he seems to check several boxes if he gets a coach that knows how to use him.

Golden has what I've heard called a "viper" position that's basically a pass rushing linebacker who also drops into coverage a fair amount of the time. Pratt looks to be out. Golden is very likely to use a base 4-3. Walker can rush the passer and play off-ball linebacker. Might be an ideal talent for Golden to build around.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-25-2025, 06:24 PM)samhain Wrote: I'm back and forth on Jalon Walker, but he seems to check several boxes if he gets a coach that knows how to use him.  

Golden has what I've heard called a "viper" position that's basically a pass rushing linebacker who also drops into coverage a fair amount of the time.  Pratt looks to be out.  Golden is very likely to use a base 4-3.  Walker can rush the passer and play off-ball linebacker.  Might be an ideal talent for Golden to build around.

Awesome Samhain. I like these thoughts, exciting, nothing like some of the passive meh Defense that Lou would run at times.

I like the thought of adding this "viper" position and Jalon Walker seems the exact type for this even if I want Kenneth Grant more right now.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-21-2025, 06:47 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I tend to look at the scouting department as being at fault.  Just because you spend a lot of draft capital doesnt mean those draft picks are going to work out.  How many years and draft picks have the Bengals spent on offensive line?  Just because the Bengals are drafting those various offensive line positions doesnt mean they are doing a good job scouting the talent they used those draft picks for.  Just because you spent a 2nd round draft pick on Jackson Carman, doesnt mean its the coaching staff's fault he didnt turn out to be a good football player.  The Bengals have had one of the worst scouting departments in the NFL for years and I tend to see the failures on draft picks as being on the front office.  The coaching staff can only do so much with what they are given.

Absolutely agree, and I feel like they've done a pretty good job with the lackluster scouting.