Help Me Understand...

[Shake n Blake]

(03-14-2016, 04:44 PM)Benton Wrote: 1. What says we aren't?
2. What says we should pursue  veteran in place of someone on the roster or a draft pick?

Personally, I've said before I thought if one or both walked that we would sign a veteran and draft someone. I still think that.

1. We might, but considering the team hasn't signed even a semi-decent FA WR since 2010, I understand why some have their doubts. I certainly have mine. Hopefully the Bengals have learned from 2012 and 2014 though.

2. We have no realistic options on the roster and rookie WRs typically struggle.

Honestly I'd say there's a 100% chance we draft at least one WR, but as for signing a veteran, I'd say that's 50/50 chance at best. I'm sure the team values the #2 position based on what they offered MLJ, but they've shied away from vet WR's since Bryant/TO. They only sign guys for the minimum or close to.

[J24]

They probably think that a rookie WR can give them as good production as a veteran WR and do it at a much cheaper rate. Of course I would sign a Lafell or Wallace on a cheap one year deal along with a draft pick.

[The Real Deal]

So do I need a coupon for stouffers meals or what? And if so, is the paper printed yet or not?

[*bfine32*]

I will say that when AJ, MLJ, and Mo entered the league I was adamant about signing a vet WR. Now we have a seasoned vet in AJ. We also have a very talented receiving TE and RB so I have no problem with rounding out the receiving corps with some draft picks UFDAs.

[leonardfan40]

(03-14-2016, 06:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I hope eventually people are gong to stop pointing at the Bengals' stupidity and pretend that's just how FA works and it was FA's fault, not the Bengals fault that it happened.

FA didn't tell the Bengals to sign a WR who already had a degenerative knee problem coming off an injury plagued 600 yard season and not have their medical staff do a thorough examination of the guy.

FA didn't tell the Bengals to sign a mediocre #2 31-year-old who was on the decline to a 4 year deal.

Not to mention, the way people keep mentioning those two deals like they put the Bengals back a generation in salary cap space with how tragic they were.
-Laveranues Coles ended up costing the Bengals $7.5m in cap space for the 1 year he played with them. The contract was very backloaded. His base salary in his first year was $1.9m, in the fourth year it was $8.4m.
-Antonio Bryant's was even less painful. On a contract that averaged $7m/yr, when they cut him they only took a cap hit of $5.8m for just the one year. His was also quite backloaded with a $1.55m base salary in the first year and a $6.75m base salary in the 4th year.

They really honestly weren't big losses. Think about it this way. The Bengals took a $7.1m cap hit for Rey Maualuga in 2015 and they're taking a $7.5m cap hit for Dre Kirkpatrick in 2016. Both of those guys suck too. That doesn't mean the Bengals shouldn't ever sign their own or pay their drafted players.



/rant

I used those two as examples because they were the only higher priced bengals FA WR's that I could think of. If I missed any other WR's that fit those criteria feel free to use them as an argument against me. And it's not just the bengals, here's a whole article about recent FA/trade acquisitions.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/firstandgoal151211/parade-busts-free-agent-wr-te-moves-nfl

So yeah it kinda is how FA works. Sure you could spend big and get a fair return, but it's probably more likely you spend big and get less than what you paid for. And this is a weak WR FA class to begin with, you really think the bengals should go throwing the crazy contracts that have been given out this offseason on a weak WR class that has already been picked over?

And Kirk is only making that money on a one year 5th year option. I hope eventually people stop pointing to his salary in this one year prove it deal as a reason to show the bengals are mismanaging the roster. overpaying him this one year has many benefits that you chose to ignore like keeping a starter for another year, While not sinking a long term contract into a guy that hasn't quite earned it and at the same time not giving up on him. They are also not allowing a young player hitting his prime to go to a market filled with teams with insane amounts of cap space allowing them to lure him away with a long term contract that would probably be close to what he's making per year this year. Also Kirk doesn't suck, he's not a pro bowler but he has played well for us at times and could earn more than his currently salary if he takes the next step this year, he has not reached his ceiling yet.

And sure I think maualuga is overpaid for what he brings to the field, but the bengals clearly value him and his play style differently than we do. As fans have no idea what he brings to the locker room and field as a leader, and thumpers are definitely undervalued by fans because they don't get the flashy stats. 

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2016, 06:44 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: So do I need a coupon for stouffers meals or what? And if so, is the paper printed yet or not?

Half off on Stouffers "Crow Parmesan" when the Bengals sign some low tier free agent WR.

[Alleyviper13]

I like your logic OP.

im assuming they wait for awhile and snag a rando veteran.

[BengalsRocker]

(03-14-2016, 06:44 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: So do I need a coupon for stouffers meals or what? And if so, is the paper printed yet or not?

Well considering Coles is probably the guy delivering it on his daily route and Bryant is the one putting it in the rack at the front of the store...  I'd say that you're S.O.L.

Or in this case S.O.S.

[tenacious-B]

(03-14-2016, 07:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I will say that when AJ, MLJ, and Mo entered the league I was adamant about signing a vet WR. Now we have a seasoned vet in AJ. We also have a very talented receiving TE and RB so I have no problem with rounding out the receiving corps with some draft picks UFDAs.

I agree, and I'm not impressed with this year's FA WR's. They're meh at best. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-14-2016, 08:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Half off on Stouffers "Crow Parmesan" when the Bengals sign some low tier free agent WR.

I'm talking about a serviceable vet.  You know, someone who will actually contribute.  No Doug Gabriel's, no Greg Little's, no Denarius Moore's.  An actual veteran FA, who would be out starting receiver, opposite Mr. AJ Green.

Again, they felt we needed a 2nd receiver bad enough that they were willing to assign an 8 mil dollar a year value to the position, with the offer to Marvin Jones.  Now, I'm not asking why they wouldn't invest that exact amount on someone else.  Only that they invest some of it, say in the 2-5 mil per range. 

Otherwise, how can you budget go from 8 mil to at, or near, league minimum?  Surely, there is someone out there, one FA player, who is capable of helping this team.

[Atomic Orange]

(03-15-2016, 12:25 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Again, they felt we needed a 2nd receiver bad enough that they were willing to assign an 8 mil dollar a year value to the position, with the offer to Marvin Jones.  Now, I'm not asking why they wouldn't invest that exact amount on someone else.  

It could be as simple as MLJ = more $ through ticket and Jersey sales on top of production. I'm going to guess he also makes a few female fans weak between the knees. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-15-2016, 12:54 AM)Atomic Orange Wrote: It could be as simple as MLJ = more $ through ticket and Jersey sales on top of production. I'm going to guess he also makes a few female fans weak between the knees. 

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but ticket sales are shared revenue.  The only ticket sales the Bengals see 100% are luxury boxes.  So, if you think P&G and Kroger are contemplating renewal based upon Marvin Jones return then that's a helluva an argument.

And I'm not 100% positive, but I think merchandise sales are shared as well, expect for the individual pro shops.  In that case, Marvin Jones produced thousands, maybe a ten of thousand, profit margin for the team.  And that's assuming those fans wouldn't just elect to buy another jersey.

[Atomic Orange]

Yeah, i was grabbing at straws Wes because honestly who knows? Hopefully they get someone!

[BengalChris]

The one thing this team doesn't want is to be strapped with no maneuvering room when it comes to the cap. So they aren't going to spend to the limit and write contracts which put them in cap hell in a year or two.

Zietler, Gio, Eifert and Kirkpatrick are coming up next year, plus our depth on the DL is currently empty since we drafted so many projects in higher rounds (Hunt, Clarke and Still) and it looks like Thompson may leave.

Overpaying for a vet right now doesn't make a lot of sense if it will cut across our ability to sign our own guys in the next year or two. I'm sure this is how the team sees it. We'll have to replace Marvin Jones in the draft and sign an inexpensive vet to replace Sanu.

Besides, just because you can afford something doesn't mean it is wise to buy it. I could buy a new Porsche, but I'm not going to.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-15-2016, 01:36 AM)BengalChris Wrote: The one thing this team doesn't want is to be strapped with no maneuvering room when it comes to the cap. So they aren't going to spend to the limit and write contracts which put them in cap hell in a year or two.

Zietler, Gio, Eifert and Kirkpatrick are coming up next year, plus our depth on the DL is currently empty since we drafted so many projects in higher rounds (Hunt, Clarke and Still) and it looks like Thompson may leave.

Overpaying for a vet right now doesn't make a lot of sense if it will cut across our ability to sign our own guys in the next year or two. I'm sure this is how the team sees it. We'll have to replace Marvin Jones in the draft and sign an inexpensive vet to replace Sanu.

Besides, just because you can afford something doesn't mean it is wise to buy it. I could buy a new Porsche, but I'm not going to.

Why would we have to overpay? There's a reason why free agency has slowed to a crawl after the initial flurry.

This pretty much happens every year. Some young guys with potential get overpaid. After the dust settles, you start seeing some very realistic and fair deals.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-15-2016, 01:36 AM)BengalChris Wrote: The one thing this team doesn't want is to be strapped with no maneuvering room when it comes to the cap. So they aren't going to spend to the limit and write contracts which put them in cap hell in a year or two.

Zietler, Gio, Eifert and Kirkpatrick are coming up next year, plus our depth on the DL is currently empty since we drafted so many projects in higher rounds (Hunt, Clarke and Still) and it looks like Thompson may leave.

Overpaying for a vet right now doesn't make a lot of sense if it will cut across our ability to sign our own guys in the next year or two. I'm sure this is how the team sees it. We'll have to replace Marvin Jones in the draft and sign an inexpensive vet to replace Sanu.

Besides, just because you can afford something doesn't mean it is wise to buy it. I could buy a new Porsche, but I'm not going to.

Again, they placed a value of 8 mil dollar per on the 2nd receiver position, when they matched Marvin Jones' offer.  That was what they could "afford".  It was within their budget

I'm not asking why they don't to turn around and just give this amount to someone else.  I'm asking why they wouldn't take some of this money and invest it elsewhere.

Lastly, why do some people always manage to insert the term overpay in their explanations?  Did we overpay for Iloka?  Did we overpay for AJ Green?  Did we overpay for Atkins?  I never hear that word come up when we're discussing those contracts.  But as soon as we're talking about someone else it immediately appears.  No one wants, is calling for, us to overpay anyone.

[grampahol]

They were willing to pay MJ because they know what he brings to the table. He knows the playbook and so on. A high dollar FA not so much.. By many reports MJ was THE premium FA WR on the market and he walked so now many want to pay similar money to someone who isn't as good, doesn't know the playbook and may very well be washed up..
Of course you can always keep thinking that these guys are all willing to play for vet minimum, but they all have agents who aren't willing to take the hit themselves. It was true in Paul Brown's day and it's still true today that football is and always will be a young man's game.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-15-2016, 01:19 PM)grampahol Wrote: They were willing to pay MJ because they know what he brings to the table. He knows the playbook and so on.  A high dollar FA not so much.. By many reports MJ was THE premium FA WR on the market and he walked so now many want to pay similar money to someone who isn't as good,  doesn't know the playbook and may very well be washed up..
Of course you can always keep thinking that these guys are all willing to play for vet minimum, but they all have agents who aren't willing to take the hit themselves. It was true in Paul Brown's day and it's still true today that football is and always will be a young man's game.

You mean he used to know the playbook.

He knew Hue Jackson's playbook which they can't continue to use because that would mean that the HC of a division rival would know your offense inside and out.

Can't imagine he knows Ken Zampese's playbook seeing as how they wouldn't give it to a FA. (Assuming Zampese has one already.)

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-15-2016, 02:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You mean he used to know the playbook.

He knew Hue Jackson's playbook which they can't continue to use because that would mean that the HC of a division rival would know your offense inside and out.

Can't imagine he knows Ken Zampese's playbook seeing as how they wouldn't give it to a FA. (Assuming Zampese has one already.)

I see this mentioned every year in terms of free agency.  "He won't know the playbook" or "he would have to learn the system".  I will readily admit that I have never played in the NFL, but I am willing to bet that the great majority of NFL players can learn a new playbook over the off season.  If not, that guy is borderline mentally challenged and you've done a really bad job of scouting the talent... these guys have been playing football, and learning new playbooks, their entire lives.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-15-2016, 06:21 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I see this mentioned every year in terms of free agency.  "He won't know the playbook" or "he would have to learn the system".  I will readily admit that I have never played in the NFL, but I am willing to bet that the great majority of NFL players can learn a new playbook over the off season.  If not, that guy is borderline mentally challenged and you've done a really bad job of scouting the talent... these guys have been playing football, and learning new playbooks, their entire lives.

Yeah, you'd hope so. At least say the reason is he has familiarity or a rapport with the QB. The playbook reason only makes sense if the preseason is over, or say if you have an injured player  in the middle of the season.

All those years they called back Chris Crocker from his couch in mid-season? That was because he knew the playbook. But that's not the same scenario as a FA period where you have workouts, training camps, preseason, etc all still to go. Plenty of time to learn a playbook. Afterall, all the Bengals players on offense have to do it this year anyway.