$15/hr minimum wage

[*michaelsean*]

(08-14-2018, 04:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But we are constantly going to have a certain percentage of our workers making minimum wage.  These people have no choice and are forced to "make a living" at a minimum wage job until they can move up.

I can understand when certain people try to demonize the poor that refuse to work, but I can not believe the people who don't give a crap about people working full time in a portion of our economy that will never go away no matter how hard people work.

"Screw the working poor.  They deserve to suffer while the employers make record profits from the labor of the poor."

Some businesses are making record profits.  Some are making OK profits, some are barely making a profit, and some are losing money.Whenever people talk about a hiked minimum wage they always point out McDonalds or some other huge business. There are tens of millions of businesses that aren't McDonalds but are still subject to all the laws people want to pass.  Same with corporate tax.  We hear about Apple or GE or something.

[GMDino]

(08-14-2018, 04:34 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but the people EXPECTED to be making minimum wage are teens just starting their first job and senior citizens looking to do something instead of sitting around doing nothing. Instead of raising minimum wage, I think the focus should be on those who are trying to make a living off minimum wage and how they can be paid better (like through job training programs for better paying jobs, etc)

Or senior citizens that need to work to afford their medication AND food and shelter. Because their pension was raided/voided and their 401K got killed by the stock market.

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 04:36 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Some businesses are making record profits.  Some are making OK profits, some are barely making a profit, and some are losing money.Whenever people talk about a hiked minimum wage they always point out McDonalds or some other huge business. There are tens of millions of businesses that aren't McDonalds but are still subject to all the laws people want to pass.  Same with corporate tax.  We hear about Apple or GE or something.

There will always be people who struggle at business no matter what.  But as long as the rules are the same for everyone businesses are just going to have to adapt.

There may be some rules required for certain regions that have a much higher or lower cost of living, but as long as all the businesses competing against each other in the same region are under the same rules failing businesses have no excuse.   There is no unfair advantage to anyone.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-14-2018, 04:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Or senior citizens that need to work to afford their medication AND food and shelter.  Because their pension was raided/voided and their 401K got killed by the stock market.

Those individuals would fall under the " trying to make a living off minimum wage" portion of my post, but thanks for playiing!

[*michaelsean*]

(08-14-2018, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There will always be people who struggle at business no matter what.  But as long as the rules are the same for everyone businesses are just going to have to adapt.

There may be some rules required for certain regions that have a much higher or lower cost of living, but as long as all the businesses competing against each other in the same region are under the same rules failing businesses have no excuse.   There is no unfair advantage to anyone.

i'm not saying there is an unfair advantage, I'm just saying we should think of all businesses when we consider laws, and not just the giants.  

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 04:34 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but the people EXPECTED to be making minimum wage are teens just starting their first job and senior citizens looking to do something instead of sitting around doing nothing. Instead of raising minimum wage, I think the focus should be on those who are trying to make a living off minimum wage and how they can be paid better (like through job training programs for better paying jobs, etc)

You still don't get my point.

All the job training in the world will not create a society where no one works at a minimum wage job.  There will always be a certain percentage of the population trapped in that minimum wage demographic.  I don't know why everyone wants to crap on people working full time and tell them they don't deserve a living wage.

[*Nately120*]

(08-14-2018, 04:34 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but the people EXPECTED to be making minimum wage are teens just starting their first job and senior citizens looking to do something instead of sitting around doing nothing. Instead of raising minimum wage, I think the focus should be on those who are trying to make a living off minimum wage and how they can be paid better (like through job training programs for better paying jobs, etc)

Don't teens have school to go to?  Our society has moved towards quite the reliance upon service-oriented jobs and if the only people who are supposed to work minimum wage jobs are teens then no fast food places would be open before 3pm on weekdays, right?

Wal Mart employs a lot of people and they are open 24 hours a day all year, or so. How can a business that is supposedly only there to rely on the work of teenagers dare to keep those kinds of hours?

[*michaelsean*]

(08-14-2018, 04:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Don't teens have school to go to?  Our society has moved towards quite the reliance upon service-oriented jobs and if the only people who are supposed to work minimum wage jobs are teens then no fast food places would be open before 3pm on weekdays, right?

Well we do have 18 and 19.

[*Nately120*]

(08-14-2018, 04:58 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well we do have 18 and 19.

When you are 18 or 19 you should be in college or the Army or learning a trade or starting a business.  There is no reason for anyone over the age of 17 to work minimum wage, apparently.  When you become an adult you enter the "shouldn't be working minimum wage" age.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-14-2018, 04:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You still don't get my point.

All the job training in the world will not create a society where no one works at a minimum wage job.  There will always be a certain percentage of the population trapped in that minimum wage demographic.

Did you even read my post? I acknowledged there will be people working at a minimum wage jobs.

fredtoast Wrote:I don't know why everyone wants to crap on people working full time and tell them they don't deserve a living wage.

No one's crapping on them. But, why do you think everyone that works deserves a living wage? When I started at my first job, I was 15 and living at home. I had absolutely 0 bills and my parents didn't need to make me pay for anything (no rent, nothing towards utilities). Why did I deserve to make a living wage? 

Yes, many people are trying to make a living wage on minimum wage. My first question is how did they get there? Then I would ask what THEY can do to better their situation? JUST raising minimum wage is not going to solve the issue. Cost of living will go up as well as other issues that aren't going to help those people. 

Like just about any issue we face in America, the solution is not simple.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-14-2018, 04:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Or senior citizens that need to work to afford their medication AND food and shelter.  Because their pension was raided/voided and their 401K got killed by the stock market.

I know plenty of retired people who go find a job because to them sitting around doing nothing is alien.  I personally don't have that problem.

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 04:52 PM)michaelsean Wrote:  I'm just saying we should think of all businesses when we consider laws, and not just the giants.  

And I am saying we should think about people instead of businesses.

"People making the lowest wages in this country are struggling"
"Screw them.  They are just lazy and need to work harder"

"Businesses with low profits in this country are struggling"
"A BUSINESS?  STRUGGLING?  OMG!  OMG! What are we going to do?  Is there any way we can help them exploit cheap labor more so that people will suffer instead of businesses?"

[Belsnickel]

(08-14-2018, 04:34 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but the people EXPECTED to be making minimum wage are teens just starting their first job and senior citizens looking to do something instead of sitting around doing nothing. Instead of raising minimum wage, I think the focus should be on those who are trying to make a living off minimum wage and how they can be paid better (like through job training programs for better paying jobs, etc)

I don't disagree with the need for job training and all of that, but I think the angle you miss with this post is that the majority of teens and seniors working those jobs are part-time employees. They don't necessarily need to be supporting themselves with their wages earned, I don't think we would disagree on that, but they also aren't the focus of these discussions. The idea of a living wage is getting to a point where a person needs to only work one full-time job to support themselves. When we bring the part-time workers into the equation it is a deflection from the real discussion at hand. I know it's not your intent with this, but the argument you make is one that has been pushed for a long time from people that originally intended for it to do just that--produce a red herring.

[*Nately120*]

(08-14-2018, 05:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Did you even read my post? I acknowledged there will be people working at a minimum wage jobs.


No one's crapping on them. But, why do you think everyone that works deserves a living wage? When I started at my first job, I was 15 and living at home. I had absolutely 0 bills and my parents didn't need to make me pay for anything (no rent, nothing towards utilities). Why did I deserve to make a living wage? 

Yes, many people are trying to make a living wage on minimum wage. My first question is how did they get there? Then I would ask what THEY can do to better their situation? JUST raising minimum wage is not going to solve the issue. Cost of living will go up as well as other issues that aren't going to help those people. 

Like just about any issue we face in America, the solution is not simple.

When I was 16 I had my first job packing groceries.  I worked there after school and on weekends.  But there were people there who weren't 16 who had jobs that were more in-depth than mine, but they weren't rocket surgeons.  Anyways, the point is that these people had kids and wives and homes and cars and stuff. They weren't living the high life, but I assume they were living. Does a guy who works the deli counter deserve a living wage?  Hell if I know, I never use that part of the store.  

I knew one guy there who knocked up his gf and was like "Welp, I gotta go get a real job, see ya" so there was that.

[Belsnickel]

(08-14-2018, 04:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Those individuals would fall under the " trying to make a living off minimum wage" portion of my post, but thanks for playiing!

Maybe for them we should be looking at strengthening our social safety net so they don't have to continue to be in the workforce longer than our current system was designed for, putting a strain on our economy.

(08-14-2018, 05:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I know plenty of retired people who go find a job because to them sitting around doing nothing is alien.  I personally don't have that problem.

I won't be sitting around doing nothing. I will get up before sunrise, make my coffee, and head to a body of water with my fishing gear in tow. Then, after I finish my coffee, I will start on the beer in the cooler I brought with me. That'll be my retirement.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-14-2018, 05:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I am saying we should think about people instead of businesses.

"People making the lowest wages in this country are struggling"
"Screw them.  They are just lazy and need to work harder"

"Businesses with low profits in this country are struggling"
"A BUSINESS?  STRUGGLING?  OMG!  OMG! What are we going to do?  Is there any way we can help them exploit cheap labor more so that people will suffer instead of businesses?"

It's not one or the other.  Do you think most businesses are owned by rich people? all I'm saying is consider all businesses and not just the Fortune 500 like I always hear mentioned when these issues come up.

[*Nately120*]

(08-14-2018, 05:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I won't be sitting around doing nothing. I will get up before sunrise, make my coffee, and head to a body of water with my fishing gear in tow. Then, after I finish my coffee, I will start on the beer in the cooler I brought with me. That'll be my retirement.

When I retire I will be recording multiple avant garde concept albums per year.  Perhaps we could corroborate in a manner which incorporates making coffee and fishing.  Hmm....

[*michaelsean*]

(08-14-2018, 05:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: When I was 16 I had my first job packing groceries.  I worked there after school and on weekends.  But there were people there who weren't 16 who had jobs that were more in-depth than mine, but they weren't rocket surgeons.  Anyways, the point is that these people had kids and wives and homes and cars and stuff.  They weren't living the high life, but I assume they were living.  Does a guy who works the deli counter deserve a living wage?  Hell if I know, I never use that part of the store.  

I knew one guy there who knocked up his gf and was like "Welp, I gotta go get a real job, see ya" so there was that.

Oh so your job was to stand around and watch me pack my groceries.    (Wait for the wink)

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 05:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No one's crapping on them. But, why do you think everyone that works deserves a living wage? When I started at my first job, I was 15 and living at home. I had absolutely 0 bills and my parents didn't need to make me pay for anything (no rent, nothing towards utilities). Why did I deserve to make a living wage? 

What does this even mean? How you live away from your job has zero to do with how much you get paid.   A multi billionaire has all the money he needs to live on.  So why should he be paid anything at all?

You should be the poster boy for people who don't understand their privilege.  You had parents who supported you, so people who don't have parents to support them should not get paid enough to live on.
 

(08-14-2018, 05:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, many people are trying to make a living wage on minimum wage. My first question is how did they get there?

They got there because that was the best job they can get.  There are not enough high paying jobs for everyone to enter the workforce at a higher wage.  And no amount of additional work training will eliminate all minimum wage jobs.

The ides that the number of minimum wage jobs in this country is controlled by the work ethic of the poor is absurd.  A certain portion of our economy is going to consist of minimum wage jobs.

(08-14-2018, 05:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote:  Cost of living will go up as well as other issues that aren't going to help those people. 

Cost of living is going up anyway.  Why is it that when the people at the top make a few extra billion a year you are not concerned about the effect it will have on the price of a hamburger, but if we start talking about giving the working poor an extra hundred dollars a week suddenly it is a terrible thing that will drive up the cost of living?

Our economy is growing.  New wealth is being created by the labor of the working poor.  Yet some act like they do not do anything to "deserve" more pay even though it is their labor that is helping to create this new wealth.  

The question you should be asking is why the wealthy elite "deserve" to take all the new wealth created by the labors of the working poor.

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 05:13 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It's not one or the other.  Do you think most businesses are owned by rich people?  all I'm saying is consider all businesses and not just the Fortune 500 like I always hear mentioned when these issues come up.

I do consider all businesses.  That is why I said they would not struggle as long as the rules were the same for everyone in their area.


Why are businesses so much more important than people to you?