A bullying fine?

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2016, 11:13 AM)Vlad Wrote: Stop wearing lipstick.

I wish it had been that simple.

But they kept picking on me even after they stole my lipstick.

[GMDino]

(05-13-2016, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a true story about bullying from my own life that shows how stupid it can be.

I grew up in a small town (Franklin).  Back in the 70's when I was riding the bus to school I was on a route that took a wide sweep around some of the outer edges of the school district.  So I rode the same bus with kids from the other side of town.   For some reason unknown to me there was a dispute form a part of town they called "Hollywood" and the place where I lived, Pennyroyal Hill.  The problem was I was the only male student from my part of town that rode the bus.  I was constantly getting picked on.  They stole my hats.  They stole my homework.  I even got into a couple of fights.  The only thing that helped was my parents complaining to the school about the lack of control on the bus.  The bus driver was forced to give assigned seats and establish more discipline on his bus.  But even then the disputes carried over to the schoolyards, but there was always more adult supervision at school.  

And I had to go through all of that just because of WHERE I LIVED.  It was insane.  I was even stronger and smarter than average for my age growing up, but some of these kids were years older than me and there was a group of them.

How would you have had me deal with that situation, Lucie?  How could I have handled that problem without help from adult supervision?

Had an experience in high school where the cousin of a classmate wanted to beat me up.  No idea why.  He went to a different school and would wait at the bus stop where his cousin got dropped off and yell at me through the window of the bus.

This went on for a couple months.

One day I'd had enough and was giving him some lip from inside and the bus driver yelled at ME.  Told me he'd let him on the bus if *I* kept it up.

That was a big help. 

The kid eventually stopped coming when he figured out I wasn't getting off the bus just to fight him.  Hell, he knew where I lived he could have just come there.

I saw him not two weeks ago when I was out to eat with my family.  I tried to wave and say hello and he just ignored me.

Oh well.

[Rotobeast]

(05-13-2016, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a true story about bullying from my own life that shows how stupid it can be.

I grew up in a small town (Franklin).  Back in the 70's when I was riding the bus to school I was on a route that took a wide sweep around some of the outer edges of the school district.  So I rode the same bus with kids from the other side of town.   For some reason unknown to me there was a dispute form a part of town they called "Hollywood" and the place where I lived, Pennyroyal Hill.  The problem was I was the only male student from my part of town that rode the bus.  I was constantly getting picked on.  They stole my hats.  They stole my homework.  I even got into a couple of fights.  The only thing that helped was my parents complaining to the school about the lack of control on the bus.  The bus driver was forced to give assigned seats and establish more discipline on his bus.  But even then the disputes carried over to the schoolyards, but there was always more adult supervision at school.  

And I had to go through all of that just because of WHERE I LIVED.  It was insane.  I was even stronger and smarter than average for my age growing up, but some of these kids were years older than me and there was a group of them.

How would you have had me deal with that situation, Lucie?  How could I have handled that problem without help from adult supervision?

Not answering for Lucie, but you should have picked the biggest one and told him that you would bite his nose off, if the group wouldn't stop harassing you.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday that honker would be yours and he'd be a freak for the rest of his life.
Then proceed to lick your lips, every time you see him.

[*Nately120*]

(05-13-2016, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a true story about bullying from my own life that shows how stupid it can be.

I grew up in a small town (Franklin).  Back in the 70's when I was riding the bus to school I was on a route that took a wide sweep around some of the outer edges of the school district.  So I rode the same bus with kids from the other side of town.   For some reason unknown to me there was a dispute form a part of town they called "Hollywood" and the place where I lived, Pennyroyal Hill.  The problem was I was the only male student from my part of town that rode the bus.  I was constantly getting picked on.  They stole my hats.  They stole my homework.  I even got into a couple of fights.  The only thing that helped was my parents complaining to the school about the lack of control on the bus.  The bus driver was forced to give assigned seats and establish more discipline on his bus.  But even then the disputes carried over to the schoolyards, but there was always more adult supervision at school.  

And I had to go through all of that just because of WHERE I LIVED.  It was insane.  I was even stronger and smarter than average for my age growing up, but some of these kids were years older than me and there was a group of them.

How would you have had me deal with that situation, Lucie?  How could I have handled that problem without help from adult supervision?

Actually, I'd present the possibility that Lucie's (and other like-minded parents') brand of "stand up for yourself" is what led to those from the oppressed part of town lashing out at you in the first place.  I had some friends who worked some of those awful "wrap around" jobs right out of college and the amount of time they spent with kids who were told by their parents that they need to stand up for themselves by fighting back or lashing out was just saddening.

Personally, my old man taught me that self confidence was being able to avoid a conflict by letting some ignoramus think he is right (I do that in person, but I'm obviously not doing it on internet message boards, hardy har) but other kids are taught that self-respect is standing up for your part of the town, your race, your class, your friends, yourself, etc. and  not being afraid to "take a punch" and so on.

Our culture, from its very bottom to the very top seems to have misconstrued offense with defense.  Maybe those kids on the bus figured beating you into a pulp was going to prevent you from assembling your own posse from the other side of town and starting your own conflict.  Who knows.  What I do know is that children are being programmed to believe that fighting is some sort of honorable thing and that those who avoid is are cowards, lack self-respect, or are going to grow up to be wimps.

Long story short, I'd wager those kids bullying you were just doing what they were taught was the right thing to do and saw it as a manly defense of their part of town.  Can you really have pride in your own side without actively berating/attacking the opposition?  Different strokes for different folks.  

I don't wear Bengals stuff around Pittsburgh because total strangers will actively start antagonizing me based on nothing more than my affiliation (some people feel absolutely compelled to do these things).  It wouldn't occur to me to give grief to a guy in a Steelers jersey, not because Bengals fans are better/wimpier than Steelers fans, but because I was raised to believe antagonizing strangers was stupid at best and dangerous at worst.

[SteelCitySouth]

(05-13-2016, 11:20 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: Not answering for Lucie, but you should have picked the biggest one and told him that you would bite his nose off, if the group wouldn't stop harassing you.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday that honker would be yours and he'd be a freak for the rest of his life.
Then proceed to lick your lips, every time you see him.

That never worked for you did it?

[GMDino]

(05-13-2016, 11:20 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Actually, I'd present the possibility that Lucie's (and other like-minded parents') brand of "stand up for yourself" is what led to those from the oppressed part of town lashing out at you in the first place.  I had some friends who worked some of those awful "wrap around" jobs right out of college and the amount of time they spent with kids who were told by their parents that they need to stand up for themselves by fighting back or lashing out was just saddening.

Personally, my old man taught me that self confidence was being able to avoid a conflict by letting some ignoramus think he is right (I do that in person, but I'm obviously not doing it on internet message boards, hardy har) but other kids are taught that self-respect is standing up for your part of the town, your race, your class, your friends, yourself, etc. and  not being afraid to "take a punch" and so on.

Our culture, from its very bottom to the very top seems to have misconstrued offense with defense.  Maybe those kids on the bus figured beating you into a pulp was going to prevent you from assembling your own posse from the other side of town and starting your own conflict.  Who knows.  What I do know is that children are being programmed to believe that fighting is some sort of honorable thing and that those who avoid is are cowards, lack self-respect, or are going to grow up to be wimps.

Long story short, I'd wager those kids bullying you were just doing what they were taught was the right thing to do and saw it as a manly defense of their part of town.  Can you really have pride in your own side without actively berating/attacking the opposition?  Different strokes for different folks.  

I don't wear Bengals stuff around Pittsburgh because total strangers will actively start antagonizing me based on nothing more than my affiliation (some people feel absolutely compelled to do these things).  It wouldn't occur to me to give grief to a guy in a Steelers jersey, not because Bengals fans are better/wimpier than Steelers fans, but because I was raised to believe antagonizing strangers was stupid at best and dangerous at worst.

On our 10th wedding anniversary my wife and I went back to the Poconos.  At the resort they sit you with other couples at the the meals to encourage making friends I guess.

Guy sitting across for me is wearing everything Cowboys.  I had on Steelers shirt.

We're all making small talk and he finally gets real animated and says " I can't sit here and look at that Steeler stuff without saying how much I hate that team!" And we both laughed about it.  then we traded some barbs about which team was better and who had beat who the most and that was that.

I try not to be "that fan" who busts the other guy immediately, but I don't mind the banter.

[*Nately120*]

(05-13-2016, 11:41 AM)GMDino Wrote: I try not to be "that fan" who busts the other guy immediately, but I don't mind the banter.

Right, I don't mind banter but you just can't tell who is going to be a giant d-bag about it either.  I worked in a large, cubicle-city office in Pittsburgh and I waited until people knew I had a sense of humor before I wore my (Neil O'Donnell, no less) Bengals jersey on casual Friday.  Everyone had a good laugh and a trio of guys I didn't know flagged me down and actually turned out to be Andrew Hawkins' brother and 2 of his high school buddies.

A few years later I was working in administration for a university in Pittsburgh and one of our student workers saw my Bengals shirt and told me he knows Gio.  So, I guess people in Pittsburgh are either out to harass me OR inform me of an amusing tie in with the team.  Wacky.

[Rotobeast]

(05-13-2016, 11:35 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: That never worked for you did it?

Yes, it did.
In a bar, five guys were going to jump me and a friend of mine.
I did exactly as described and they were nowhere to be found at the end of the night.
I would have followed through, too.

[*Nately120*]

It seems rather archaic, but I was in a class with multiple grades in it and an alcoholic moron as a teacher and a group of seniors decided to pick on me on a semi-regular basis. My response was to store a piece of pipe in my work station (it was a drafting and CAD class) and if I felt I had to, attempt to hit the one I hated the most in the face before I took a beating by 3+ football players who were 2 years older than me.

The point is, what I did "worked" because they left me alone but I'm not sure I'd tell my kids that was the best way to go about things.

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2016, 11:20 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Actually, I'd present the possibility that Lucie's (and other like-minded parents') brand of "stand up for yourself" is what led to those from the oppressed part of town lashing out at you in the first place.

The name of where I lived may have sounded fancy, but it was actually a lower-middle class rural part of the town.  My dad worked in a factory and my mom worked in a truck stop.  This was not a class conflict.

[GMDino]

(05-13-2016, 12:03 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It seems rather archaic, but I was in a class with multiple grades in it and an alcoholic moron as a teacher and a group of seniors decided to pick on me on a semi-regular basis.  My response was to store a piece of pipe in my work station (it was a drafting and CAD class) and if I felt I had to, attempt to hit the one I hated the most in the face before I took a beating by 3+ football players who were 2 years older than me.

The point is, what I did "worked" because they left me alone but I'm not sure I'd tell my kids that was the best way to go about things.

I told my son after he was bullied once...and only once...that I never want him to start a fight but he sure as hell can end it.

I said if the kid tried it again (he had laid his hands on him) to kick him right in the groin as hard as he could (the other kids was bigger).  I asked if he knew where that was and he answered in the affirmative.

As it turned out the kid never bothered him again anyway so I don't know what the one incident was about.  I know his mother and he's friends with my nephew so it was weird to begin with.

[*Nately120*]

(05-13-2016, 12:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The name of where I lived may have sounded fancy, but it was actually a lower-middle class rural part of the town.  My dad worked in a factory and my mom worked in a truck stop.  This was not a class conflict.

Ah my mistake...I just assumed you were some yacht rocker!

But anywho, just being different is enough for some people to feel like they need to defend their own segment by attacking others.  It's sad stuff, I tells ya!

[XenoMorph]

(05-13-2016, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: I told my son after he was bullied once...and only once...that I never want him to start a fight but he sure as hell can end it.

I said if the kid tried it again (he had laid his hands on him) to kick him right in the groin as hard as he could (the other kids was bigger).  I asked if he knew where that was and he answered in the affirmative.

As it turned out the kid never bothered him again anyway so I don't know what the one incident was about.  I know his mother and he's friends with my nephew so it was weird to begin with.

yeah I never had some attack me more than once.  I did get bullied but I was a big kid so not very often.  but I was taught if someone was attacking me to fight back...  You might not win.. you might get beat up. But if you fight back they probly wont bother you again.   it did work kinda I had one kid punch me in the face and I just started laughing.  and he ran away.


but is charging a fine to a bully... bullying the bully? You took his lunch money now the government/school is taking yours? so now the bully has no money (where might he go for more?)

unfortantely it really takes someone to stand up to the bully to stop them

[GMDino]

(05-13-2016, 12:34 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: yeah I never had some attack me more than once.  I did get bullied but I was a big kid so not very often.  but I was taught if someone was attacking me to fight back...  You might not win.. you might get beat up. But if you fight back they probly wont bother you again.   it did work kinda I had one kid punch me in the face and I just started laughing.  and he ran away.

Had another kid who didn't like me because I was friends with his sister.  That's it.

Anyway once he comes up to while I'm playing racquetball at our park and was in my face and I wouldn't fight so he punched me in the gut.

I was a fat kid, but I wasn't mushy.  I felt it but it didn't hurt.  I picked up my racquet and walked away.  Looking back I should have hit him over the head with the racquet but I did not want to fight.  My dad got wind of it and went down to straighten the kid out...which I did NOT want him to do but he did it anyway.  My father is tough but fair.

Not long after the kid comes up to me AGAIN and this time I just stood my ground and he left without an incident.

I've taken a few punches unfortunately.  Luckily they are body shots so I can laugh and walk away.  I've never thrown a punch in anger though.  Lots of shoving and me trying not to fight.  I was always afraid I'd hurt somebody.

But I always knew if someone was all out attacking I'd have to fight back...and then it would not have been pretty given how bad my temper was back then.

[XenoMorph]

(05-13-2016, 12:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: Had another kid who didn't like me because I was friends with his sister.  That's it.

Anyway once he comes up to while I'm playing racquetball at our park and was in my face and I wouldn't fight so he punched me in the gut.

I was a fat kid, but I wasn't mushy.  I felt it but it didn't hurt.  I picked up my racquet and walked away.  Looking back I should have hit him over the head with the racquet but I did not want to fight.  My dad got wind of it and went down to straighten the kid out...which I did NOT want him to do but he did it anyway.  My father is tough but fair.

Not long after the kid comes up to me AGAIN and this time I just stood my ground and he left without an incident.

I've taken a few punches unfortunately.  Luckily they are body shots so I can laugh and walk away.  I've never thrown a punch in anger though.  Lots of shoving and me trying not to fight.  I was always afraid I'd hurt somebody.

But I always knew if someone was all out attacking I'd have to fight back...and then it would not have been pretty given how bad my temper was back then.

same boat I never had reason to hurt someone.. it took a lot to get me angry enough to start thinking about throwin a punch.   and then I would take a second and think of the outcomes of said fighting and usually it wasn't worth it.

[Bengalzona]

Like Fred, I grew up in a lower middle class area. When I was in elementary school, my parents used to give me a buzz haircut. Being a little kid, I didn't care. Unfortunately, some of my classmates in fourth grade did care. This was back in the early seventies. Some kids took offense to my haircut and started calling me a "war monger" (it didn't help that I used to like to read history books about WWII and stuff).

Anyway, this one guy told me one day that he was going to beat me up after school. I didn't have any desire to fight anybody. When the bell rang, I bolted out of the class like a bat out of hell and went the opposite way that I normally went home to try and throw anybody off. It didn't work. This guy had two friends and they surrounded me and took turns punching me. I don't remember whether I tried to punch back or not. But, being that they were all three larger and stronger than me, it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

My parents were not real happy when they saw the "shiners" on my eyes. They called the school and the principal wanted me to tell who had done it. The one guy who had threatened me asked me not to rat him out, so I didn't (I didn't know the other two guys). I got whacks for not ratting no him. But, he left me alone after that. I eventually got to know one of the other guys and we became best friends a year later.

This was an important incident in my life. A lot came out of it. I swore to myself that, win or lose, I was never going to back down or try to run away again. That led to a lot of fights. A LOT of fights. One guy in 7th grade was running book on me (literally) and figured up that I had 59 fights that year. I almost never started the fights. But if someone knocked the chip on my shoulder, we were gonna tangle. And I wasn't real particular about the place, time, size of the other guy, etc. Initially, I lost a lot of fights and got into a lot of trouble at school. But when you fight that much, you eventually learn stuff (a.k.a. School of Hard Knocks... literally). By the time I got in high school, people didn't come at me anymore. It wasn't worth the risk. I didn't fight to win or lose anymore, I fought to do enough damage to the other guy mentally and/or emotionally that he would never think of fighting me again.

I hated being that way. I hated that lifestyle. I hated fighting. I hated that I really didn't consider any other options. I turned away from fighting. But it always seemed to come back periodically. And I hated that, when I was trying to avoid fighting, I let a couple of guys go that I should have confronted. I think I hated that most.

My son is different than me. He is smart and has a non-confrontational disposition. I'm hoping he doesn't have to go through what I went through and can retain that personality. Therefore, I hope there is some authority around to intervene if he is ever bullied. So far, so good.

[Vas Deferens]

(05-13-2016, 03:47 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I hated being that way. I hated that lifestyle. I hated fighting. I hated that I really didn't consider any other options. I turned away from fighting. But it always seemed to come back periodically. And I hated that, when I was trying to avoid fighting, I let a couple of guys go that I should have confronted. I think I hated that most.

This part ***** sucks 'Zona.  Trying to explain to my GF or a friend why someone deserves an ass beating is the hardest thing ever.  They just look at me like I'm crazy, but I know it would be justified.  Very difficult.

Here's mine.

Spent some of my formative years in a distant land.  I was one of a handful of white kids in the entire school and a lot of the population of this area hated white people, not without reason.  Most of the white kids went to a private school further away for a variety of reasons.  My parents weren't about to go that route, they wanted me to deal with and learn from the situation.

For the first couple of years there I spent the AM before school fighting.  They would form a circle around me and throw the youngest guy at me first, I'd fight them for a while, then they's move on to the next guy until I was fighting guys older than me or the bell rang.  It was brutal at first.  I was on the smaller side and ended up getting the piss beat out of me on the reg.  We're not talking about your typical grade school fight.  We're talking about generations of rage and animosity against white people passed down from father to son, concentrated into every punch and kick thrown at me.  Let me put it this way, there was a kid thrown over a third story railing and paralyzed at this school once.  I'd come home all beat up and give my parents a bunch of lies about bruises and bloody noses.  They new I got into fights, but they had no idea what was really happening because I didn't want to tell them.

A couple of things came from this.  First of all, these kids were effectively training me.  I learned some techniques, but over all I concluded it was all about intensity at that point.  Pure animalistic rage was my go-to move.  Never letting up, taking it all way too far.  After a while the daily 'fight your way out of this ring' sessions stopped and they moved on to some other poor kid.  There were constantly one offs and I took lickings, but no one ever came out unscathed, I made sure of that.  When I moved back to cincy, still looking unsuspecting, it only took a few fights for people to realize I had particular set of skills they did not want to deal with.  Never went out looking for a fight, but if anyone ever wanted one, I was right there in their face accepting the offer.  The consequences from school / parents / police were always afterthoughts.  Standing my ground and changing the other persons face / worldview / reputation were always more important.

It also instilled in me an understanding that hating people based on the color of their skin was a spineless POS move.  Not only is it shitty to the other, but I realized that the people back there that acted on those feelings, the dads that used to tell their kids to beat the shit out of white kids; they were all big ***** losers and I'm sure those kids are now as well.  They couldn't better their lives, so they blamed someone else and wanted to take it out on them. Its pathetic.

Unfortunately the short fuse never got replaced with a larger amperage.  Permanent chip on my shoulder.  Its rare these days, but occasionally someone will push me to the point where I know I'm about to dig down into my rage bag and it scares the shit out of me afterwards.  Its usually when I'm drinking, someone does or says something out of place or generally disrespectful to me or the girlfriend, I can feel my eyes go blank.  Luckily I'm cognizant of it and almost always able to remove myself from the situation or have friends that talk sense into me or distract me with shiny objects.  People these days think they want to get into a fight, but most of them don't want the actual consequences.  I sure as hell shouldn't be messing with this moneymaker of a mug and quite honestly am very afraid of civil litigation.  Highly doubt my umbrella policy would cover that.

[Au165]

You'll never stomp out bullying at anytime in life. It doesn't end after school, it just takes a different shape, it's part of human nature. I think we need to spend more time teaching kids to cope and deal with it. I'm not saying tell them "just deal with it", I mean we need to teach them techniques and give them perspective to handle that it will inevitably happen to them. We are all about trying to stop it, but that's like a war on drugs, rather than fighting a battle that can't be won let's teach them to live in reality and make good choices within that reality (like not killing yourself or others because of it).

[Bengalzona]

(05-13-2016, 05:03 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Unfortunately the short fuse never got replaced with a larger amperage.  Permanent chip on my shoulder.  Its rare these days, but occasionally someone will push me to the point where I know I'm about to dig down into my rage bag and it scares the shit out of me afterwards.  Its usually when I'm drinking, someone does or says something out of place or generally disrespectful to me or the girlfriend, I can feel my eyes go blank.  Luckily I'm cognizant of it and almost always able to remove myself from the situation or have friends that talk sense into me or distract me with shiny objects.  People these days think they want to get into a fight, but most of them don't want the actual consequences.  I sure as hell shouldn't be messing with this moneymaker of a mug and quite honestly am very afraid of civil litigation.  Highly doubt my umbrella policy would cover that.

Yeah, I know all about that short fuse. And that fire underneath.

[Benton]

(05-13-2016, 05:18 PM)Au165 Wrote: You'll never stomp out bullying at anytime in life. It doesn't end after school, it just takes a different shape, it's part of human nature. I think we need to spend more time teaching kids to cope and deal with it. I'm not saying tell them "just deal with it", I mean we need to teach them techniques and give them perspective to handle that it will inevitably happen to them. We are all about trying to stop it, but that's like a war on drugs, rather than fighting a battle that can't be won let's teach them to live in reality and make good choices within that reality (like not killing yourself or others because of it).

Thats a good point. Some of the better anti bullying plans do address that aspect, but id say most dont.