Admit you voted for Biden

[basballguy]

(06-13-2022, 11:37 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Well, my dictionary doesn't begin and end with Fox News. I'd love to hear your "Once upon a time . . . " fairy tale version of how Republicans are good for the economy.

The main line out of the Bill Clinton campaign "It's the economy, stupid", because 12 years of Republican trickle down economics left the economy in a downfall. He gave us our most one-sided military victory in our history and lost because of the economy.

Bush II - is that the economy you're touting as a success? 

Trump - What was the economy like after his mis-handling of covid?

1992 End of Bush
2008 End of Bush II
2020 End of Trump

 
You're using GDP to measure the economy.  GDP is generally accepted as the easiest indicator of the economy....i feel like there's more to it but it's what you're going with.  

I also appreciate you posting the chart.  You fit the mold for the random internet user that thinks posting a chart with no context immediately makes you right.  Kudos.  

What you haven't clarified is how it was reeling.  To me it looks like you're just making shit up as you go...which is fine, but we'll run with this for now.  

Now using GDP - 

Bush I 

• Q1 1992 - 6.363T 1.6% increase of previous quarter
• Q2 1992 - 6.470T 1.7% increase
• Q3 1992 - 6.566T 1.5% increase
• Q4 1992 - 6.680T 1.9% increase
• Q1 1993 - 6.729T (Clinton takes over) - 0.7% increase
• Q2 1993 - 6.808T (First full Q) - 1.2% increase
  

So the year before Clinton took over, the GDP was steadily increasing.  It continued to increase when Clinton took over.  

Bush II
No sense in spelling out the GDP here by quarter.  There was a GLOBAL recession.  But hey man if you're down with blaming that on Bush then there's no hope for you.  Instead I'll give you these tidbits:

• The GDP grew from 10.470T to 14.608T under Bush for a 39.5% increase (even after you factor in his recession quarters at the end of his term)
• For the first half of the recession the GDP still grew each quarter.  
• The GDP impact of the recession was basically over by the time Obama took office
  

Trump
"Mishandling of Covid"

• Q3 2019 - 21.505T (too lazy to do %'s at this point)
• Q4 2019 - 21.694T
• Q1 2020 - 21.481T
• Q2 2020 - 19.477T
• Q3 2020 - 21.138T
• Q4 2020 - 21.477T
  

Where in your absolutely insane mind do you think Trump handed off a "reeling" economy to Biden (based off GDP)?  If anything, you should be all over Trump's nut sack (if we're blaming/crediting presidents for the economy) for keeping the GDP impact of Covid to 1-2 quarters tops.  


Now I personally do not believe you can even credit/blame presidents for the state of the economy....but people like you come around, with no understanding of the economic picture, and toss out blame without a second thought.  

One last thing on your  "oMg YoU WaTcH fOxNeWs" comment.....I don't.  :)

data source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDP

[hollodero]

So I can't vote, I only can run sophisticated influence campaigns. I freely admit I would have voted for Biden; I'd be what folks call a single issue voter. For the time being, always the party that still commits to democracy.

[BigPapaKain]

(06-13-2022, 09:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If we're talking about the same person then she was found to be 100% lying.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/florida-ig-report-insufficient-evidence-desantis-critics-claims-covid-rcna30647

"The 27-page report from the Florida Department of Health’s Office of Inspector General said it found "insufficient evidence" or no evidence to support Rebekah Jones' accusations that she was asked to falsify Covid positivity rates or misrepresent them on the state’s dashboard she helped design. The report also "exonerated" officials accused by Jones of wrongdoing because they removed a data section from the website to ensure that private individual health information was not released publicly."

Meh it's been awhile since I read that story so it's a bit hazy. Still, dude did everything he could to down play the shit and cover up the bodies. Zero trust.

Quote:I'm not personally aware of any such laws other than the Parental Rights in Education act, which was incorrectly and inflammatorily labeled "don't say gay."  If it's just that law you're basing this accusation on then sorry, I don't agree.

It's not always about shit on the books man. Go back and watch some of the shit he's said and the things he's done.

Quote:I have zero issue with playing the political game with a company playing the political game.  You want special treatment from a state legislature, then don't be shocked when you lose said special treatment after publicly shit talking said legislature.

All the better when people who didn't vote for you have to foot the bill, huh? It also would've reverberated throughout the state and killed a huge part of their tourism draw, hurting more people. Plus he belongs to a party that typically speaking allows businesses to run amok - apparently until they decide to cater to their customers as opposed to their employees (and yes I'm implying businesses have governors and congress members on payroll).

Quote:Given Florida's population skewing elderly, for obvious reasons, I don't see their Covid death rate, lower than Washington and the same as Massachusetts as some crazy example of horrible executive action.  I can see such an accusation of Cuomo, who deliberately housed Covid patients with that most at risk group, but I'm not seeing that with DeSantis, although I may not be aware of some information that you are.  I'll certainly allow for that.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/us-coronavirus-deaths-by-state-july-1.html

I would stress that Covid's mortality rate is highly linked to age, the older the person the far more likely they were to die from Covid.  So, we can logically extrapolate that a state with a higher elderly population would experience more deaths than one with a lower elderly population regardless of any action taken.  I don't think this absolutely exonerates DeSantis, but it does provide some very important context.

All that being said, I don't see your labeling him as "Deathsentence" to be a justified conclusion.

You can abuse the numbers all you want and say 'well old folks'; bodies are bodies. Preventable deaths are preventable deaths.

[BigPapaKain]

(06-13-2022, 11:24 PM)basballguy Wrote: My take away from this is you sorta suck at taking notes.  :)

Great counter points. I'm glad you're a part of the discussion.

[Sled21]

(06-13-2022, 07:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'll admit I voted for him, and given everything that has happened I would do it again. The gas prices are a global issue and not Biden's doing. Inflation was an inevitability and we have a spineless Congress that can't get anything done so the tools available to pull the economic levers are limited. I am not a fan of Biden, but he was a better choice than a wannabe autocrat.

Also, Harris is VP. The VP has no job other than being a placeholder if the President is unable to perform the job and to break ties in the Senate.

Only in the Bizzaro World of the left is cutting production of oil not tied to gas prices. Even if you say gas is a global issue, when you cut supply in a country like the US, that just means less on the market, which means prices go up. Biden and his policies are wholly responsible for energy cost increases. 

[KillerGoose]

(06-14-2022, 08:54 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Only in the Bizzaro World of the left is cutting production of oil not tied to gas prices. Even if you say gas is a global issue, when you cut supply in a country like the US, that just means less on the market, which means prices go up. Biden and his policies are wholly responsible for energy cost increases. 

Biden and his policies are not wholly responsible. Biden also didn't slash production - Trump did. You may remember that in April of 2020, oil prices went negative. This was because oil companies were having to pay other companies to store their oil. They had too much, demand had tanked due to COVID. 



In response to this, the United States (and other countries) slashed production to match demand. In the below screenshot, the red circle is April, and Blue is May. Both in 2020, obviously. This is U.S. oil production in bbls per day, from the EIA. Here is the source.



Time and time again, various posters have attempted to engage you on this and you never respond. I've said it before, and I will continue to say it - the take you possess is lazy and ignorant. To the rest of your post, gas is certainly a global issue. The entire globe has high gas prices, aside from Libya and various Middle Eastern countries. This is due to the fact that oil production is easy to slash, but difficult to ramp back up. Demand has recovered much better than anticipated but production hasn't caught up yet. The EIA is also forecasting that the U.S. oil production will top out at 12.8 million bbls per day in 2023, which will be close to the ATH set under the Trump admin. And yes, Russia being sanctioned off from the rest of the world is a huge influence. They were producing between 10 & 11 million bbls per day of crude and since the invasion of Ukraine, have been cut off from the global market. You can pull up a chart of crude prices and watch the massive spike hit as Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia invaded on the 22nd of February, and prices soared in early March, barely a week after the invasion. 

Biden is not a friend to the O&G industry, but he isn't powerful enough to sway a global market like NGLs and crude. No president is. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-14-2022, 07:34 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Meh it's been awhile since I read that story so it's a bit hazy. Still, dude did everything he could to down play the shit and cover up the bodies. Zero trust.

C'mon, dude.  You can't use this as a pillar of your objection to the man and then dismiss it when it is proven to be false.  That woman lied and she got caught in her lie.  

Quote:It's not always about shit on the books man. Go back and watch some of the shit he's said and the things he's done.

I've looked and pretty much all I can find on this subject is related to the aforementioned law.  If you have some examples I'd be happy to look over them.

Quote:All the better when people who didn't vote for you have to foot the bill, huh? It also would've reverberated throughout the state and killed a huge part of their tourism draw, hurting more people. Plus he belongs to a party that typically speaking allows businesses to run amok - apparently until they decide to cater to their customers as opposed to their employees (and yes I'm implying businesses have governors and congress members on payroll).

I've heard that "footing the bill" talking point numerous times.  I haven't seen any indication it's actually going to happen.  Your second point isn't really relevant, what the GOP has traditionally done, or not done, has no bearing on this particular move by DeSantis.  I do find the outrage interesting, as it's essentially being upset that a multi-billion dollar corporation won't get a sweetheart deal any longer.  Last I look that would be something the left would really get behind.  Lastly, how is this move hurting tourism, at all?  I saw numerous people talking about Disney just moving to another state (I know you didn't make that point), which is laughable.  It would cost Disney far, far more to close the Florida park and build a new one somewhere else.  Plus, where would they build it?  Part of the draw of Florida is the climate (although it's far too humid for my taste), what other state are you going to be able to run year round in that isn't GOP led?  California already has the original park, so Disney is pretty SOL on that topic.  Not that they ever even considered it.

Quote:You can abuse the numbers all you want and say 'well old folks'; bodies are bodies. Preventable deaths are preventable deaths.

Here I cannot agree with you.  At some point you have to draw a line between what will keep people safe from Covid and what is causing them long term psychological damage.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/10/covid-pandemic-mental-health-damage-could-last-a-generation.html

We have already acknowledged in this country that there must be a balance, even in such a pandemic, between public safety and personal liberty.  We did not implement draconian policies such as Australia's forced quarantining in government run camp, for example.  I think some of the blue states definitely overreacted and some of the red states definitely underreacted.  I don't see Florida as an egregious example of the latter.

[BigPapaKain]

(06-14-2022, 12:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: C'mon, dude.  You can't use this as a pillar of your objection to the man and then dismiss it when it is proven to be false.  That woman lied and she got caught in her lie. 

I didn't say that to be dismissive; I said that because I genuinely couldn't remember the ending of the story.

Quote:I've looked and pretty much all I can find on this subject is related to the aforementioned law.  If you have some examples I'd be happy to look over them.

I'll have to circle back to this when I have some time (outside of the 5 minute smoke break).

Quote:I've heard that "footing the bill" talking point numerous times.  I haven't seen any indication it's actually going to happen.  Your second point isn't really relevant, what the GOP has traditionally done, or not done, has no bearing on this particular move by DeSantis.  I do find the outrage interesting, as it's essentially being upset that a multi-billion dollar corporation won't get a sweetheart deal any longer.  Last I look that would be something the left would really get behind.  Lastly, how is this move hurting tourism, at all?  I saw numerous people talking about Disney just moving to another state (I know you didn't make that point), which is laughable.  It would cost Disney far, far more to close the Florida park and build a new one somewhere else.  Plus, where would they build it?  Part of the draw of Florida is the climate (although it's far too humid for my taste), what other state are you going to be able to run year round in that isn't GOP led?  California already has the original park, so Disney is pretty SOL on that topic.  Not that they ever even considered it.

That 'sweet deal' costs Disney a lot of money - they're basically their own government providing services to the community around the park. The outrage doesn't come from that deal anyways - it's from straddling the tax payers with the bill per the original deal Disney struck with the state for the land because they didn't fall in line with DeSantis' anti-gay law and stopped giving him money over it. It's not even really about him going after the them, it's the reason. 

Quote:Here I cannot agree with you.  At some point you have to draw a line between what will keep people safe from Covid and what is causing them long term psychological damage.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/10/covid-pandemic-mental-health-damage-could-last-a-generation.html

We have already acknowledged in this country that there must be a balance, even in such a pandemic, between public safety and personal liberty.  We did not implement draconian policies such as Australia's forced quarantining in government run camp, for example.  I think some of the blue states definitely overreacted and some of the red states definitely underreacted.  I don't see Florida as an egregious example of the latter.

[/quote]

Maybe we should look into better mental health care for people then? You ain't gonna change my mind on the piles of bodies (not that I think you're trying to). 

At the end of the day, I'm just not gonna vote for the guy. I won't even consider it. He comes off as way too seedy for my liking; though that can be said of about 500 politicians in this country. Edit: and that includes Biden; that was a vote of necessity more than agreement.

Edit 2; Electric Boogalo: https://www.glaad.org/gap/ron-desantis

It's not a comprehensive list that I was hoping for, but getting an extra few minutes gave me a chance to find something.

[basballguy]

(06-14-2022, 02:29 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: At the end of the day, I'm just not gonna vote for the guy. I won't even consider it. He comes off as way too seedy for my liking; though that can be said of about 500 politicians in this country. Edit: and that includes Biden; that was a vote of necessity more than agreement.

(06-13-2022, 08:20 AM)jmccracky Wrote: But yeah....I agree and Biden was one of my least favorite candidates ever. Trump just so happened to be my least favorite lol.

(06-13-2022, 09:23 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I voted for Joe Biden.

And I'd do it again if my only other choice was Trump.

(06-13-2022, 10:07 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I voted for Biden. I'm not the biggest fan of his, but I wasn't then, either. I preferred him over Trump. I would vote for him again if it was Biden v. Trump again.

(06-13-2022, 04:53 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: And I voted for Biden, who was basically the best "Not Donald Trump" candidate available and if they truck both idiots out there again, I'd gladly do the same.

Imagine a world where people cared enough to take time to understand policy versus voting on which person they liked more.   Perhaps maybe there should be a quick 5 minute competency test before you vote to filter out these people.  (Yes this also applies to people that voted for DJT because they didn't like Biden)

Donald Trump is a tool...no doubt...but he represented the policies that I agreed with and supported.  I will gladly vote for him 800 more times until that changes.  

[KillerGoose]

(06-14-2022, 03:53 PM)basballguy Wrote: Imagine a world where people cared enough to take time to understand policy versus voting on which person they liked more.   Perhaps maybe there should be a quick 5 minute competency test before you vote to filter out these people.  (Yes this also applies to people that voted for DJT because they didn't like Biden)

Donald Trump is a tool...no doubt...but he represented the policies that I agreed with and supported.  I will gladly vote for him 800 more times until that changes.  

To be clear, Biden represented policies I support moreso than Trump did. My wording was more referencing the fact that I am willing to vote red, if the policies dictate it. Trumps policy mismatch was a bigger deal, and his abrasive personality was just the kicker. 

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-14-2022, 08:54 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Only in the Bizzaro World of the left is cutting production of oil not tied to gas prices. Even if you say gas is a global issue, when you cut supply in a country like the US, that just means less on the market, which means prices go up. Biden and his policies are wholly responsible for energy cost increases.

That's why our prices in Canada are (slightly) higher than yours?

The world doesn't revolve around the US; this isn't 1950 anymore.

[CJD]

(06-14-2022, 03:53 PM)basballguy Wrote: Imagine a world where people cared enough to take time to understand policy versus voting on which person they liked more.   Perhaps maybe there should be a quick 5 minute competency test before you vote to filter out these people.  (Yes this also applies to people that voted for DJT because they didn't like Biden)

Donald Trump is a tool...no doubt...but he represented the policies that I agreed with and supported.  I will gladly vote for him 800 more times until that changes.  

Unfortunately, I was not given the option to vote for someone whose policies I agree with. So I had to select the person whose policies I disagreed with less.

[BigPapaKain]

(06-14-2022, 05:03 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Unfortunately, I was not given the option to vote for someone whose policies I agree with. So I had to select the person whose policies I disagreed with less.

That's actually the most honest way to look at modern politics depending on one's stance.

[*Nately120*]

(06-14-2022, 04:38 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The world doesn't revolve around the US; this isn't 1950 anymore.

It would be the 1950's again if we gave Trump a second term, dadgummit!

Side note, it's funny how we are getting further and further away from this "golden" time period.  In order to have a first hand grasp of the USA in the 1950s you have you be 80+ years old...you know the age where people become brainless and demented and shouldn't be trusted with things.

[basballguy]

(06-14-2022, 05:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It would be the 1950's again if we gave Trump a second term, dadgummit!

An era when kids could buy a car after working a summer job, housing was affordable, and homelessness was almost nonexistent!

[*Nately120*]

(06-14-2022, 05:40 PM)basballguy Wrote: An era when kids could buy a car after working a summer job, housing was affordable, and homelessness was almost nonexistent!

And Ronald Regan was a democrat and an actor instead of saddling our economy with practices that would deny the working class all those nice things you point out.  


I suppose Trump was going to abolish the Federal Reserve and get us back on the gold standard in his second term, too.

[Belsnickel]

(06-14-2022, 08:54 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Only in the Bizzaro World of the left is cutting production of oil not tied to gas prices. Even if you say gas is a global issue, when you cut supply in a country like the US, that just means less on the market, which means prices go up. Biden and his policies are wholly responsible for energy cost increases. 

So, you're just plain wrong, and I'm glad others have pointed it out to you so I didn't have to bother.

[Belsnickel]

Here's my thing. Democrat or Republican, not much actually changes policy-wise. Seriously. When you look at actual policies there isn't a ton of difference. Oh, sure, there is a difference in the lip service paid and they focus on the different hot-button issues that drive the voters to the polls, but you don't get what you pay for, so to speak. Trump, however, was a different breed. He was anti-democratic. He really stood against all of the principles our government was founded upon. Seriously, this is Trump:



I am first and foremost a person that values democracy. Any leader that is antagonistic to that will never get my vote.

[samhain]

(06-14-2022, 06:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here's my thing. Democrat or Republican, not much actually changes policy-wise. Seriously. When you look at actual policies there isn't a ton of difference. Oh, sure, there is a difference in the lip service paid and they focus on the different hot-button issues that drive the voters to the polls, but you don't get what you pay for, so to speak. Trump, however, was a different breed. He was anti-democratic. He really stood against all of the principles our government was founded upon. Seriously, this is Trump:



I am first and foremost a person that values democracy. Any leader that is antagonistic to that will never get my vote.

There's only so much either party can do without an overwhelming majority.  The current political climate makes that extremely difficult.  Neither party want to cross the aisle to support any kind of legislation that might boost an eventual opponent.  The bases of both parties are at the same time insane and immensely powerful when it comes to deciding what candidates are suitable to run.  

The government is basically a non-functioning entity on the national level.  They serve the fringes of each party and themselves.  That's it.  Trump's main legacy will be his re-shaping of the court, which is one of very few things a president can do to cause large scale impact.  He was in the right (or wrong) place at the right (or wrong) time, and he got to forge ahead with the help of the legislative branch.