Another Slight Against Native American Peoples

[Rotobeast]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/29/opinion/selling-off-apache-holy-land.html?_r=0

Discounted, as usual.

[Benton]

And not surprising. Congress would strip mine Jerusalem, knock down the Western Wall or frak Mecca if somebody paid them enough.

[Beaker]

(07-27-2015, 01:01 PM)Benton Wrote: And not surprising. Congress would strip mine Jerusalem, knock down the Western Wall or frak Mecca if somebody paid them enough.

Actually, wiping out all traces of religion might not be a bad thing considering how divisive it has been to human kind.

[StLucieBengal]

Well mccain is coming up for re election so we will see if the people take him to task for this...

This is certainly not right.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 01:29 PM)Beaker Wrote: Actually, wiping out all traces of religion might not be a bad thing considering how divisive it has been to human kind.

Humans are made to be divisive. Religion has at least kept factions of them together. Even if relogion didn't exist people would still be fighting.... It would just be over somethong else.

That's why the utopian fantasy land can never exist. Humans always want more than they need and they want more than the other humans.

[Benton]

(07-27-2015, 01:29 PM)Beaker Wrote: Actually, wiping out all traces of religion* might not be a bad thing considering how divisive it has been to human kind.

* [also interchangeable here: money, authority, race, sex, ownership, fear, property]

[Rotobeast]

(07-27-2015, 01:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Humans are made to be divisive.   Religion has at least kept factions of them together.    Even if relogion didn't exist people would still be fighting.... It would just be over somethong else.  

That's why the utopian fantasy land can never exist.    Humans always want more than they need and they want more than the other humans.

This is all due to the fact that, as much as some people do not want to admit it, we are still animals.
There is an instinct to perpetuate everything that we are and align ourselves with.
We all do a good job of attempting to be educated, compassionate beings, but in the end we will always revert to instincts.
Apparently McCain's instincts are to make a few more bucks off of a people who have taken advantage of more than any other group in our country's history.
:snark:

[GMDino]

(07-27-2015, 01:35 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well mccain is coming up for re election so we will see if the people take him to task for this...  

This is certainly not right.

Why?  The Indians should have just fought harder or made better deals. 

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 02:27 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: This is all due to the fact that, as much as some people do not want to admit it, we are still animals.
There is an instinct to perpetuate everything that we are and align ourselves with.
We all do a good job of attempting to be educated, compassionate beings, but in the end we will always revert to instincts.
Apparently McCain's instincts are to make a few more bucks off of a people who have taken advantage of more than any other group in our country's history.
:snark:

Agreed. Many discount the animal instinct in all of us.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 02:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: Why?  The Indians should have just fought harder or made better deals. 

That too.

I'm not the one to have sympathy for the Indians. If it wasn't us it would have heen the Spanish, Dutch or the French to do what we did to them. Survival of the fittest.

Call it my animal instinct

[Beaker]

(07-27-2015, 02:26 PM)Benton Wrote: * [also interchangeable here: money, authority, race, sex, ownership, fear, property]

Funny how religion also covers all those bases.

[Westwood Bengal]

(07-27-2015, 02:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: That too.  

I'm not the one to have sympathy for the Indians.  If it wasn't us it would have heen the Spanish, Dutch or the French to do what we did to them.   Survival of the fittest.  

Call it my animal instinct

That's a very progressive stance Lucie. I wouldn't have thought you would be in favor of a government coming in and taking peoples lands and rights away. 

[Rotobeast]

(07-27-2015, 02:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: That too.  

I'm not the one to have sympathy for the Indians.  If it wasn't us it would have heen the Spanish, Dutch or the French to do what we did to them.   Survival of the fittest.  

Call it my animal instinct

They did, it's just conveniently left out of the history books.
Columbus was the first one here, ya know !!
 

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 04:09 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: They did, it's just conveniently left out of the history books.
Columbus was the first one here, ya know !!
 

I know. But as most thing in history ... This crew is often in the dark so I don't assume anymore that such obvious things are known.

We were Spanish down here

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 04:03 PM)Westwood Bengal Wrote: That's a very progressive stance Lucie. I wouldn't have thought you would be in favor of a government coming in and taking peoples lands and rights away. 

To the victor goes the spoils.

In today's world it's different because everything has been explored for the most part. But back then it's was all about colonization. For us to that today we would need to go into space. Which I am in favor.

As far as the Indians go .... You have to defend your lands and if you get taken by force or by diplomacy ..... That's on you. They took $700 from the Dutch for Manhattan island. That's their fault.

Was it right ? That's debatable ... By today's. Standards ... no. But by the colonial standard yes it is .... And I would hope we would do the same things if we went into space. .

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-27-2015, 01:01 PM)Benton Wrote: And not surprising. Congress would strip mine Jerusalem, knock down the Western Wall or frak Mecca if somebody paid them enough.

Why? What have you heard? Asking for a developer friend.

[Rotobeast]

(07-27-2015, 04:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: To the victor goes the spoils.  

In today's world it's different because everything has been explored for the most part.   But back then it's was all about colonization.    For us to that today we would need to go into space.    Which I am in favor.  

As far as the Indians go .... You have to defend your lands and if you get taken by force or by diplomacy ..... That's on you.   They took $700 from the Dutch for Manhattan island.   That's their fault.  

Was it right ?   That's debatable ... By today's. Standards ... no.   But by the colonial standard yes it is .... And I would hope we would do the same things if we went into space.    .

To a large portion of the Native Americans, ownership of land was a completely foreign concept.
They DID have boundaries established, for coexisting with others (and yes, some fought over that), but they couldn't comprehend the ownership of nature.
Passiveness bit them in the posterior, but to say they should have completely disregarded their beliefs of nature as its own spirit is a bit unreasonable.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 04:32 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: To a large portion of the Native Americans, ownership of land was a completely foreign concept.
They DID have boundaries established, for coexisting with others (and yes, some fought over that), but they couldn't comprehend the ownership of nature.
Passiveness bit them in the posterior, but to say they should have completely disregarded their beliefs of nature as its own spirit is a bit unreasonable.

Not saying that at all. But being naive isn't an excuse either. The more prepared group won, it's a shame for them but to the victor goes the spoils.

I think we do them a disservice by giving them what we do.... It basically keeps them under our boot. All the different tribes fought with each other. They should all have went to one state and ran that how they wished. They would be In a majority and at least be in control of how they lived with real representation. But they stil can't agree on anything. That's why they lost.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2015, 04:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: To the victor goes the spoils.  

In today's world it's different because everything has been explored for the most part.   But back then it's was all about colonization.    For us to that today we would need to go into space.    Which I am in favor.  

As far as the Indians go .... You have to defend your lands and if you get taken by force or by diplomacy ..... That's on you.   They took $700 from the Dutch for Manhattan island.   That's their fault.  

Was it right ?   That's debatable ... By today's. Standards ... no.   But by the colonial standard yes it is .... And I would hope we would do the same things if we went into space.    .

So when you watched the movie Independence Day you thought the people of earth should have just surrendered to the superior race and relinquished the planet the conquering force desired?  Ouch.  Will Smiff wouldn't dig that.

[Rotobeast]

(07-27-2015, 04:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Not saying that at all.   But being naive isn't an excuse either.    The more prepared group won, it's a shame for them but to the victor goes the spoils.    

I think we do them a disservice by giving them what we do.... It basically keeps them under our boot.   All the different tribes fought with each other.    They should all have went to one state and ran that how they wished.   They would be In a majority  and at least be in control of how they lived with real representation.   But they stil can't agree on anything.    That's why they lost.

This is true and the past is, unfortunately, the past.
I disagree (somewhat) with the disservice comment though.
They were forced to a barren land, in which they had little resources to prosper with (apart from mining, which brings us back to the Govt taking the land back and selling for $$$).