(06-24-2016, 03:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's a large part of it as well. How can you expect a nation with hundreds of years of a shared identity to subsume it, almost entirely, to what was supposed to be an economic partnership and loose confederation. I also think this is partly due to Germany essentially calling the shots now, something that was not originally intended. Eastern Europe is already leaning towards bailing on the EU, if the Netherlands, France or anyone else leaves it's a done deal. Germany overplayed their hand and underestimated the consequences. Good job Merkel.
It was an attempt at the Viertreich.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(06-24-2016, 06:29 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: If the pound keeps depreciating, many of us could probably afford to go to the game?
I didn't expect the leave campaign to win.
Holy shit. Political polarization everywhere, nationalism, and an uncertain global economy?
Scary times. Scary times.
I saw comments from some that voted leave as a sort of protest vote and were now regretting it. Silly people.
This quote, though, speaks to what you say hre more than anything else.
Quote:Australia has had five prime ministers in five years, the poor yanks look as though they'll have to choose between two options both of which have more disapproval than approval, and the UK leaves the EU. It seems like a ridiculous amount of instability. One might even call it absurd.
But it's not surprising.
You can't feed a society exaggeration, hyperbole and propaganda for over a decade, and then claim surprise when people don't seem to be making rational decisions on the basis of well established truth.
There's a cost associated with not telling the truth. There's a cost associated with polarized, adversarial public discourse. There's a cost associated with media more concerned with profits than the public interest.
It is, apparently, time to pay the piper.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
If the Bengals think it's a prime time game they will still lose.
I think that if the NFL really wanted to show the Brits what American football is all about, they would have the Bengals and Steelers play each other in London.
Color me surprised. This is why I'm not a betting man. I suppose. It seems like the Brits would prefer to burn it down (figuratively) and start from scratch so to speak, rather than try and fix what was broken.
It'll be painful in the short to intermediate term I suppose, but hopefully there is some progress made out of this. Or Boris the buffoon steps up.
I've read that the vote is not binding, and that the UK could end up staying in the EU after another vote two years down the road or so. I'll try and find the article again.
Either way it'll be an interesting couple of years across the pond. I'm still shocked that it happened.
(06-24-2016, 10:13 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Color me surprised. This is why I'm not a betting man. I suppose. It seems like the Brits would prefer to burn it down (figuratively) and start from scratch so to speak, rather than try and fix what was broken.
It'll be painful in the short to intermediate term I suppose, but hopefully there is some progress made out of this. Or Boris the buffoon steps up.
I've read that the vote is not binding, and that the UK could end up staying in the EU after another vote two years down the road or so. I'll try and find the article again.
Either way it'll be an interesting couple of years across the pond. I'm still shocked that it happened.
So, there is a way that legally the UK government can ignore the referendum, though it is not likely that will happen. With this vote they now have two years, per the Lisbon Treaty, to negotiate their exit. This must be approved by the EU Parliament or Commission, can't remember which. If an agreement is not reached/approved in that time, they either exit immediately or add an extension. There is, however, a petition already with the required number of signatures to be responded to by the UK Parliament to consider a second referendum vote due to the close outcome.
There is also movement by Scotland to hold a second independence referendum as many voted to remain in the UK simply because leaving meant leaving the EU as well. Sinn Fein has made comments about moving to unify Ireland. Spain has also smelled blood in the water and has renewed its claim to Gibraltar. All three areas in the UK voting firmly to remain but being dragged out of the EU by England and, surprisingly, Wales. Hell, some Londoners even want to seek membership to the EU as an independent city.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(06-24-2016, 10:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, there is a way that legally the UK government can ignore the referendum, though it is not likely that will happen. With this vote they now have two years, per the Lisbon Treaty, to negotiate their exit. This must be approved by the EU Parliament or Commission, can't remember which. If an agreement is not reached/approved in that time, they either exit immediately or add an extension. There is, however, a petition already with the required number of signatures to be responded to by the UK Parliament to consider a second referendum vote due to the close outcome.
There is also movement by Scotland to hold a second independence referendum as many voted to remain in the UK simply because leaving meant leaving the EU as well. Sinn Fein has made comments about moving to unify Ireland. Spain has also smelled blood in the water and has renewed its claim to Gibraltar. All three areas in the UK voting firmly to remain but being dragged out of the EU by England and, surprisingly, Wales. Hell, some Londoners even want to seek membership to the EU as an independent city.
Oh man....
These are the kinds of things I feared.
Old beefs getting riled (Falkland independence again ?) and further separation within the populace.
If the referendum is ignored and the UK stay in the EU, there will be riots with blood in the streets.
It may even happen with the mere agreement of a second vote.
(06-24-2016, 10:47 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Oh man....
These are the kinds of things I feared.
Old beefs getting riled (Falkland independence again ?) and further separation within the populace.
If the referendum is ignored and the UK stay in the EU, there will be riots with blood in the streets.
It may even happen with the mere agreement of a second vote.
The argument for the second vote is that because the winning side was lower than 60% and voter turnout was lower than 75%, there should be a second vote. This would be interesting now, of course, since one of the major claims about money being saved by not being members of the EU has been admitted to being bull shit by Ukip leader Nigel Farage and it was something many people based their voting on.
This is going to be a mess. The Scottish cabinet meets tomorrow at Holyrood, and I fully expect an announcement of a second referendum to come shortly thereafter since First Minister Sturgeon was all over the idea right away.
There are already protests all over England. I don't expect this to improve much at all soon.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(06-24-2016, 10:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The argument for the second vote is that because the winning side was lower than 60% and voter turnout was lower than 75%, there should be a second vote. This would be interesting now, of course, since one of the major claims about money being saved by not being members of the EU has been admitted to being bull shit by Ukip leader Nigel Farage and it was something many people based their voting on.
This is going to be a mess. The Scottish cabinet meets tomorrow at Holyrood, and I fully expect an announcement of a second referendum to come shortly thereafter since First Minister Sturgeon was all over the idea right away.
There are already protests all over England. I don't expect this to improve much at all soon.
I must admit most (all) of your posts on this are sour grapes. England thrived a few years before the EU; I'd expect they can do the same going forward. The country voted and the majority spoke.
Link doesn't work for me, but I assume it was POTUS was talking ill of leave, not really sure why it is any of his (our) business, but he was gracious today in his remakes.
Yeah, I'm not seeing this as the end of the world for anybody. The EU and the Euro will survive intact (there is still a lot of support for it on the continent). Interest rates will stay low here, which isn't totally a bad thing. England and its finances will take a short term hit, but will be okay, Eventually, they will make a "Norwegian Deal" with the EU.
(06-25-2016, 12:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I must admit most (all) of your posts on this are sour grapes. England thrived a few years before the EU; I'd expect they can do the same going forward. The country voted and the majority spoke.
I have to admit, I am passing along what is going on with those that wanted to remain, but none of it has been my opinion. I've been merely passing along information I have come across. I have my opinions, but I don't know how things will shake out and so this is why I haven't given much discussion on the economic outlooks. Even my comment about a claim being bull shit comes straight from the person himself, though he just said he number given previously "wasn't right" and he never "would have made that claim" even though he did and it was a major part of the Leave campaign. The Scottish thing being a mess, well, that is just about the continued political turmoil. Though I haven't really shared much of the doom and gloom stuff at all, believe me, I see a lot of it, but the only speculation I have been sharing is that which is being acted upon by leadership in parts of the UK that are unhappy with being pulled out of the EU and can do something about it.
I am personally in the camp in favor of the EU, but in favor of a new treaty that better limits what can be done by Brussels and am in favor of referendums like this every decade or so for every member state.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(06-25-2016, 07:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to admit, I am passing along what is going on with those that wanted to remain, but none of it has been my opinion. I've been merely passing along information I have come across. I have my opinions, but I don't know how things will shake out and so this is why I haven't given much discussion on the economic outlooks. Even my comment about a claim being bull shit comes straight from the person himself, though he just said he number given previously "wasn't right" and he never "would have made that claim" even though he did and it was a major part of the Leave campaign. The Scottish thing being a mess, well, that is just about the continued political turmoil. Though I haven't really shared much of the doom and gloom stuff at all, believe me, I see a lot of it, but the only speculation I have been sharing is that which is being acted upon by leadership in parts of the UK that are unhappy with being pulled out of the EU and can do something about it.
I am personally in the camp in favor of the EU, but in favor of a new treaty that better limits what can be done by Brussels and am in favor of referendums like this every decade or so for every member state.
Most likely why I said your posts and not your opinion. Just passing what I see as a trend; obviously your can post whatever you wish.
(06-25-2016, 10:30 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: What I don't get about this thing is that Cameron is resigning over this, it makes no sense.
Or is it the equivalent to a state population voting to leave the United States while the Govenor campaigned to stay and leaves office because of it?
Kinda sorta. Cameron had actually already discussed a renegotiation with the EU involving the UK staying, but I think he feels that there is going to be a lack of confidence in him moving forward to carry out the mew round of negotiations required.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
Brit leave voter here and I'm both absolutely overjoyed and somewhat terrified at the result :)
We British like to mock you Americans for your overt patriotism and flag waving while downplaying our own love of our national identity. For some of our middle class "elite", however, they seem to be embarrassed to be British and ashamed at our past. They are the ones that were pushing hardest for us to give it all up and move towards the "European Project". They are the ones pushing for more faith schools, more respect for non-integrating muslims, more anything that isn't British.
On Friday they got a big shock when they realised that the British Bulldog spirit is alive and well for a great deal of the population.
The more the Remain campaigned wheeled out rich and powerful people (+Obama) to tell us to vote their way while threatening everything from economic collapse to World War 3, the more stubborn we Brexiters became. On Friday the markets went a little crazy, but they will correct. Maybe we will lose Scotland. Maybe we will lose a lot more. Maybe we'll end up in economic meltdown while the Euro-zone soars and we end up crawling back with our tail between our legs. Maybe.
But if this is the final throws of Empire, and the final collapse of a once great nation then know that to the end we fought for what we believed in and faced down our fears, rather than surrendering meekly like lesser nations.
A little melodramatic? Maybe :)
Can't wait to find out, though. Till then, I'll just spend some time on youtube...
(06-25-2016, 10:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Kinda sorta. Cameron had actually already discussed a renegotiation with the EU involving the UK staying, but I think he feels that there is going to be a lack of confidence in him moving forward to carry out the mew round of negotiations required.
I'm not an expert on British politics, but I believe that PM's resigning is not as rare and unusual as Presidents stepping down here (which has only happened once).
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