Does Burrow need to hit another level?

[Rubekahn29]

Let me start by saying this- I love Burrow and he is a top QB in this league. Probably already the best QB the Bengals have had. That’s being said, he is the highest paid QB in the NFL. I think he needs to take his game to another level. You started to see glimpses of it yesterday with their backs agains the wall, but it needs to happen all game long. As we saw yesterday we struggle to compete in shootouts. I feel like the last shootout we won was against the Chiefs in 2021 where Chase went off for 200 yards.

Now, I’m sure the offensive scheme likely contributes to some of the limitations, but I want to see our 250 mil QB play like a 250 mil QB. Our defense is not good enough consistently to just go long stretches and stall as an offense.

[Brownshoe]

No, Burrow is the only reason our offense has any life. Without Burrow pulling a rabbit out of his ass yesterday we get blown out. We need the playcalling to step up from division 3 football playcalling to at least division 1.

[Soonerpeace]

(11-13-2023, 10:02 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Let me start by saying this- I love Burrow and he is a top QB in this league. Probably already the best QB the Bengals have had. That’s being said, he is the highest paid QB in the NFL. I think he needs to take his game to another level. You started to see glimpses of it yesterday with their backs agains the wall, but it needs to happen all game long. As we saw yesterday we struggle to compete in shootouts. I feel like the last shootout we won was against the Chiefs in 2021 where Chase went off for 200 yards.

Now, I’m sure the offensive scheme likely contributes to some of the limitations, but I want to see our 250 mil QB play like a 250 mil QB. Our defense is not good enough consistently to just go long stretches and stall as an offense.

Are we having this discussion if TB catches the ball? Of course one play doesn’t win or lose a game. We’ve seen it on other teams. We were minus both top receivers. Chase played but he wasn’t 100%. We tried to utilize our #3 receiver TB but he didn’t make up for it.

The OL does good enough in pass pro but not great. It’s awful in the run game. This team is one dimensional. To answer your question Burrow can’t take it to the next level w/o help.

[CJD]

I don't have the All 22, nor would I have the time or expertise to watch it and break down what exactly happened in this game but, with the exception of the TD pass to Irwin, Burrow seemed to have been in check down mode for the first three quarters of the game.

This is his spray chart from Next Gen Stats:

Joe Burrow's NGS chart from today. pic.twitter.com/bVBOrHOlsV

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) November 12, 2023

Look at ALL those dots at the LOS, behind the LOS and within 5 yards of the LOS. I count 17 in total. That's 42.5% of his passes that didn't travel more than 5 yards in the air.

In that 5 drive drought:
Boyd for 4 yards
Williams for 2 yards
Incomplete to Mixon
Mixon for -1 yards
Incomplete to Hudson, short
Boyd for 2 yards
Boyd for 1 yards

Now, in the final quarter of the game (maybe the final 20 to 25 minutes, as things started changing sometime mid 3rd quarter), you can finally start to see the offense open up a bit.
Dropped pass over the middle to Boyd
14 yards to Boyd
10 yards to Boyd
DPI against Boyd on what would have been a ~20 yard pass
64 yards to Chase
19 yards to Boyd
The interception to Sample, which honestly should have been caught for a huge gain
22 yards to Irwin
16 yards to Chase
64 yards to Boyd
The should have been game winning touchdown pass to Boyd.

Maybe the defense radically changed between the first three quarters and the final quarter that allowed Burrow to start throwing it downfield, but I think it's more likely the attitude changed. Instead of playing safe, they started playing to win. And it should have worked, if not for some critical drops.

Hopefully, that change in attitude continues into Thursday. I want to see the ball fly out of Burrow's hand, not get dumped off to the RB or TE 2 yards past the LOS.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-13-2023, 10:17 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Are we having this discussion if TB catches the ball? Of course one play doesn’t win or lose a game. We’ve seen it on other teams. We were minus both top receivers. Chase played but he wasn’t 100%. We tried to utilize our #3 receiver TB but he didn’t make up for it.

The OL does good enough in pass pro but not great. It’s awful in the run game. This team is one dimensional. To answer your question Burrow can’t take it to the next level w/o help.

Idk. I think I’m still having the same thoughts. Burrows 2 picks were worse than Boyd’s 2 drops. Chase had 124 yards, his injury can’t be an excuse this game.

[WeezyBengal]

You people want perfection. That doesn't exist.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-13-2023, 10:29 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: You people want perfection. That doesn't exist.

How is it asking for perfection? Asking not to throw 2 Redzone interceptions is not asking for perfection. Asking to not go 2 1/2 quarters with 40 yards is not perfection. Asking for someone to up their game when they are paid as the top QB in the NFL is not asking for perfection. I know it’s not all him, but the stalling in the offense, the turnovers, he had a hand in both.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-13-2023, 10:23 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't have the All 22, nor would I have the time or expertise to watch it and break down what exactly happened in this game but, with the exception of the TD pass to Irwin, Burrow seemed to have been in check down mode for the first three quarters of the game.

This is his spray chart from Next Gen Stats:

Joe Burrow's NGS chart from today. pic.twitter.com/bVBOrHOlsV

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) November 12, 2023

Look at ALL those dots at the LOS, behind the LOS and within 5 yards of the LOS. I count 17 in total. That's 42.5% of his passes that didn't travel more than 5 yards in the air.

In that 5 drive drought:
Boyd for 4 yards
Williams for 2 yards
Incomplete to Mixon
Mixon for -1 yards
Incomplete to Hudson, short
Boyd for 2 yards
Boyd for 1 yards

Now, in the final quarter of the game (maybe the final 20 to 25 minutes, as things started changing sometime mid 3rd quarter), you can finally start to see the offense open up a bit.
Dropped pass over the middle to Boyd
14 yards to Boyd
10 yards to Boyd
DPI against Boyd on what would have been a ~20 yard pass
64 yards to Chase
19 yards to Boyd
The interception to Sample, which honestly should have been caught for a huge gain
22 yards to Irwin
16 yards to Chase
64 yards to Boyd
The should have been game winning touchdown pass to Boyd.

Maybe the defense radically changed between the first three quarters and the final quarter that allowed Burrow to start throwing it downfield, but I think it's more likely the attitude changed. Instead of playing safe, they started playing to win. And it should have worked, if not for some critical drops.

Hopefully, that change in attitude continues into Thursday. I want to see the ball fly out of Burrow's hand, not get dumped off to the RB or TE 2 yards past the LOS.

That’s what I saw too. Dump offs, swing passes to a back that can’t make anyone miss. They just aren’t working when you don’t threaten down field.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-13-2023, 10:33 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: How is it asking for perfection? Asking not to throw 2 Redzone interceptions is not asking for perfection. Asking to not go 2 1/2 quarters with 40 yards is not perfection. Asking for someone to up their game when they are paid as the top QB in the NFL is not asking for perfection. I know it’s not all him, but the stalling in the offense, the turnovers, he had a hand in both.

He had a bad game. 

Michael Jordan had bad games. Tom Brady had bad games. 

You want perfection. It's not a thing. 

[WeezyBengal]

(11-13-2023, 10:23 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't have the All 22, nor would I have the time or expertise to watch it and break down what exactly happened in this game but, with the exception of the TD pass to Irwin, Burrow seemed to have been in check down mode for the first three quarters of the game.

This is his spray chart from Next Gen Stats:

Joe Burrow's NGS chart from today. pic.twitter.com/bVBOrHOlsV

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) November 12, 2023

Look at ALL those dots at the LOS, behind the LOS and within 5 yards of the LOS. I count 17 in total. That's 42.5% of his passes that didn't travel more than 5 yards in the air.

In that 5 drive drought:
Boyd for 4 yards
Williams for 2 yards
Incomplete to Mixon
Mixon for -1 yards
Incomplete to Hudson, short
Boyd for 2 yards
Boyd for 1 yards

Now, in the final quarter of the game (maybe the final 20 to 25 minutes, as things started changing sometime mid 3rd quarter), you can finally start to see the offense open up a bit.
Dropped pass over the middle to Boyd
14 yards to Boyd
10 yards to Boyd
DPI against Boyd on what would have been a ~20 yard pass
64 yards to Chase
19 yards to Boyd
The interception to Sample, which honestly should have been caught for a huge gain
22 yards to Irwin
16 yards to Chase
64 yards to Boyd
The should have been game winning touchdown pass to Boyd.

Maybe the defense radically changed between the first three quarters and the final quarter that allowed Burrow to start throwing it downfield, but I think it's more likely the attitude changed. Instead of playing safe, they started playing to win. And it should have worked, if not for some critical drops.

Hopefully, that change in attitude continues into Thursday. I want to see the ball fly out of Burrow's hand, not get dumped off to the RB or TE 2 yards past the LOS.

They don't take a lot of risk, especially when the game is close. I think Burrow's number one concern is limiting risk and not turning the ball over. In doing so, he tends to play on the safer side and not take as many chances down the field. 

I used to rip the coaching staff because the offense would go into lulls at time, but I honestly think thats more on Burrow than the staff.

You saw it yesterday. When the game was close, the offense went into a lull for almost 3 quarters. Then Burrow was FORCED to start throwing the ball down field and they got it moving again.

Maybe that's by design and that's the recipe they are comfortable with...idk why you wouldnt just play with urgency on every drive and try to score, though.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-13-2023, 10:37 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: He had a bad game. 

Michael Jordan had bad games. Tom Brady had bad games. 

You want perfection. It's not a thing. 

He’s had 6 bad games this year. Injury or not, he’s not lived up anywhere close to his billing.

There has been nothing in my post about perfection. I want a QB we win because of, not with, and right now we are winning with. In all of our wins we held the opposing team to 16, 13, 17, and 18. Those wins are not BECAUSE of Burrow. We have yet to win a game where the opposing team scores more than 18 points. That’s a problem, not asking for perfection.

[Tony]

(11-13-2023, 10:37 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: He had a bad game. 

Michael Jordan had bad games. Tom Brady had bad games. 

You want perfection. It's not a thing. 

Burrow was 1 of the only things that worked yesterday,  I aint faulting him for having to put this team on his back.. Shit happens

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-13-2023, 10:11 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: No, Burrow is the only reason our offense has any life. Without Burrow pulling a rabbit out of his ass yesterday we get blown out. We need the playcalling to step up from division 3 football playcalling to at least division 1.

By that same token, if he doesn't throw two critical INTs in scoring range (one in the end zone), we likely win without any last second heroics. I'm sure the coaches yelled in his ear "hey throw a bad interception here, and do it again on the next possession".   Joe had his hand in this loss like everyone else.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-13-2023, 10:33 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: How is it asking for perfection? Asking not to throw 2 Redzone interceptions is not asking for perfection. Asking to not go 2 1/2 quarters with 40 yards is not perfection. Asking for someone to up their game when they are paid as the top QB in the NFL is not asking for perfection. I know it’s not all him, but the stalling in the offense, the turnovers, he had a hand in both.

The pick on the throw intended for Sample was from the 40.

[Soonerpeace]

(11-13-2023, 10:24 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Idk. I think I’m still having the same thoughts. Burrows 2 picks were worse than Boyd’s 2 drops. Chase had 124 yards, his injury can’t be an excuse this game.

With your number 2 receiver out he had 5 catches. Your comment is like saying a QB had 300 yards passing but on 50 attempts. It’s safe to say he wasn’t targeted because if you follow the team he was TRULY a game time decision. I’m not absolving Joe in the least.The interception in the end zone was rough. The bottom line is losing this game is no big deal if… we were better prepared to win games like the Vikings with a hurt QB in the first several games. There’s the elephant in the room, not whether Burrow needs to hit another level. That’s on the staff and FO. They’ve never been able to run the ball effectively or have a good backup QB.

[Goalpost]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/offense/stat/rushing/table/rushing/sort/rushingYardsPerGame/dir/desc

We are last in the entire NFL in rushing. Sure, Joe has made some bad mistakes, but can a qb be truly elite when nothing else helps him?

[WeezyBengal]

(11-13-2023, 10:42 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: He’s had 6 bad games this year. Injury or not, he’s not lived up anywhere close to his billing.

There has been nothing in my post about perfection. I want a QB we win because of, not with, and right now we are winning with. In all of our wins we held the opposing team to 16, 13, 17, and 18. Those wins are not BECAUSE of Burrow. We have yet to win a game where the opposing team scores more than 18 points. That’s a problem, not asking for perfection.

He's played at an MVP level the past 3 games he's been 100% healthy. 

He was second in yards per game last year. Second in TDs. Second in completion %. Took us to the AFC Championship game. 

I mean what more do you want? You're overreacting to a small sample size. Just stop. 

[Soonerpeace]

(11-13-2023, 10:55 AM)Goalpost Wrote: https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/offense/stat/rushing/table/rushing/sort/rushingYardsPerGame/dir/desc

We are last in the entire NFL in rushing. Sure, Joe has made some bad mistakes, but can a qb be truly elite when nothing else helps him?

And that doesn’t help the play calling. Some posters here don’t realize JMHO that Pollack must not be worth a crap in run game scheme and the other offensive coaches much better. The run game is what holds this team back

[Brownshoe]

(11-13-2023, 10:45 AM)Wyche Wrote: By that same token, if he doesn't throw two critical INTs in scoring range (one in the end zone), we likely win without any last second heroics. I'm sure the coaches yelled in his ear "hey throw a bad interception here, and do it again on the next possession".   Joe had his hand in this loss like everyone else.

The coaches putting Burrow in that situation is what caused the INTs. If we called better plays and not just 2 yard passes a big part of the game then Burrow wouldn't need to throw the ball in such tight windows. Yeah Burrow threw the INTs, but the coaches 100% put him in a terrible situation where he has to make more risky splash plays

[Rubekahn29]

(11-13-2023, 10:48 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The pick on the throw intended for Sample was from the 40.

Forgive me. Plus side of the 50. Still high and unnecessary on 1st down.