Hoda Muthana

[SunsetBengal]

(02-25-2019, 09:49 PM)Benton Wrote: Id disagree. 

The majority of people only see or hear about a handful of journalists, chiefly those on network news programs. That's like judging all actors based off some Hollywood stars or all elected officials off Congress.

Fair enough, but I just don't see any of the newcomers aspiring to keep their views as concealed like Walter Cronkite did.

[Benton]

(02-25-2019, 10:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fair enough, but I just don't see any of the newcomers aspiring to keep their views as concealed like Walter Cronkite did.

No disagreement. But, again, that's a minority of journalists. 

Also, let's face it, Walt didn't have the guy on the other network saying "don't believe ol conkrite, he went to liberal arts college, so he must be a socialist!!!!"

[Belsnickel]

(02-25-2019, 10:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fair enough, but I just don't see any of the newcomers aspiring to keep their views as concealed like Walter Cronkite did.

(02-25-2019, 10:33 PM)Benton Wrote: No disagreement. But, again, that's a minority of journalists. 

Also, let's face it, Walt didn't have the guy on the other network saying "don't believe ol conkrite, he went to liberal arts college, so he must be a socialist!!!!"

We also just know more about the points of view of these people because of social media. That's just the nature of the beast these days. The issue is that people will take someone's personal political stance and use that against them, saying their reporting is biased. The truth is that the majority is these journalists know how to investigate and report in an unbiased manner and do so, but that's not the perception. The internet has really caused a blurring of the lines between opinion and news, whether it be thanks to Twitter or due to people not understanding the differences between news, analysis, and opinion thanks to the information illiteracy.

[GMDino]

And Cronkite took heat for standing against the Vietnam War.  Many viewers/citizens didn't forgive him for sharing his opinion.

[*michaelsean*]

I think the best thing now would be acknowledge her citizenship, bring her back, plead her out to something lesser than treason rather than go through a whole thing, and get the child to the grandparents.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-25-2019, 02:13 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL you "hope" that I'll condemn ISIS unequivocally--because I have given people so much reason to doubt that? Also I don't think they are an "Islamic cause" any more than white nationalism (which I hope you'd be willing to condemn) is an American cause.

 ISIS clearly is an islamic cause as its tenants spring directly from the teachings of islam.  All kaffirs should be subjugated or converted (by the sword if need be!), taking slaves is permissible (if not encouraged).  You can certainly argue that it's a perversion of islamic teachings, but you absolutely can't logically deny that ISIS and it's tenants are directly supported by islam.

You are also correct that white supremacy is not an American cause as there are "white people" all over the globe.

Quote:And I guess I don't know or can't tell what "benefit of the doubt" could mean here.  Like maybe Muthana thought she was moving to Jordan and it turned out to be Syria?  Soon there'll be a video showing she is a good mother?  We should wait till we have the "whole" story?

In this case it would be enabling her to return to a country that she willingly fled to join the most vile organization this planet has seen in almost a century.  Honestly, the only difference between Isis and Nazi Germany is that Germany actually had the means to enable their monstrosities on a larger scale.  Given the means ISIS would have been easily as bad.

Quote:At the moment my interest in Muthana concerns only two issues--

1) the legal ramifications of her claim to citizenship--the ones I can imagine, like difficulty assigning "state" status to ISIS, and ones I can't, like where the denial of her citizenship will lead as Trump officials cross legal/policy lines.

A fair policy question.   I'll throw a second wrinkle in here.  She has no US passport.  As far as I know there is no legal requirement for us to provide her with one or to go and fetch her from her self-imposed exile.

Quote:2) the policy effects--e.g.,  What use could be made of her and Begum's stories to counter ISIS propanganda; and how will ISIS use this and the Begum case for propaganda purposes within the US and the UK (and other places). How will these countries deal with ISIS "traitors" and how will that look in AFrica and Asia?

A truly progressive view.  I'll again offer second alternative.  She broke the law in Syria, let her be tried there as any US citizen would be tried in another country in which they broke the law.  These ISIS brides were often, if not always, complicit in the forced marriage and rape of enslaved women such as the Kurds or Yazidi.  She can stay in Syria until she is properly tried.  If she somehow makes it back to the US she can be tried by us for providing material aid to a terrorist organization.  Sorry, but I don't buy into your idea that she can somehow be used as a propaganda tool against islamic extremism.

Quote:In short, I don't see any useful point in setting a MAGA smirker who spiraled into prominence on an amateur video beside a case brought before the world by news media seeking to report and inform--and then arguing over who got a "pass."  

Quote: The proper distribution of vilification between these two may eventually become interesting to me as a register of MAGA grievance against the "unbalanced" liberal press, but I am just not there yet.

You wrote this in bold so I assume it's really important to you and I read it multiple times to ensure I absorbed every ounce of nuance and meaning available.  Having done so I am forced to come to the conclusion that you have completely missed the point.  That there are people who are more sympathetic to a woman (which I'm sure has nothing to do with the sympathy at all) who willingly joined a vile terrorist organization that burned people alive, beheaded children, engaged in mass rape and drown people in cages, then they are to a kid who wore a MAGA hat and "smirked" at a Native American guy is a rather telling of the mindset of some people in our society.  Oh, lest I forget, some of the kids in his group were acting insensitively by doing a "tomahawk chop".  That alone may explain the enhanced level of outrage.  

[Belsnickel]

Whether the person is someone that joined ISIS or is an alt-right incel pushing conspiracies online, if they engage in criminal activities they should face punishment for those. If they are US citizens, we should treat them as such. My big thing is that a lot of times the people that end up in these groups (ISIS, white supremacists, gangs, whatever) are there as a result of being vulnerable to propaganda for a variety of reasons. The people at the tops of these organizations prey on these people, offering them everything they want. Often those promises fall short.

If this woman is a USC then we should let her face consequences for her actions, but if she recognizes the mistakes she made then there should be compassion.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-26-2019, 11:37 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Whether the person is someone that joined ISIS or is an alt-right incel pushing conspiracies online, if they engage in criminal activities they should face punishment for those. If they are US citizens, we should treat them as such. My big thing is that a lot of times the people that end up in these groups (ISIS, white supremacists, gangs, whatever) are there as a result of being vulnerable to propaganda for a variety of reasons. The people at the tops of these organizations prey on these people, offering them everything they want. Often those promises fall short.

If this woman is a USC then we should let her face consequences for her actions, but if she recognizes the mistakes she made then there should be compassion.

Should she be tried in Syria for her crimes before we even discuss whether she should be returned to the US?  Also, she isn't a kid who fell under the thrall of the local gang or some other local, daily, influence.  She had to actively seek them out online (I don't know about you but I haven't encountered any Isis related sites while using the internets), then purchase a plane ticket to Turkey and then be smuggled into Syria.  This is a rather large cut above any other example of this sort.

As for compassion, sure, once she truly pays for her monstrous deeds.  As I stated earlier, there are reams of testimony from enslaved, raped, women about how the Isis brides ran herd on them and controlled them for the men.  I'm going to reserve most of my compassion for the poor women who were enslaved and raped en masse.  I'll let you know if I have any left over for someone who joined willingly and went to great pains to do so.

[Belsnickel]

(02-26-2019, 11:44 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Should she be tried in Syria for her crimes before we even discuss whether she should be returned to the US?  Also, she isn't a kid who fell under the thrall of the local gang or some other local, daily, influence.  She had to actively seek them out online (I don't know about you but I haven't encountered any Isis related sites while using the internets), then purchase a plane ticket to Turkey and then be smuggled into Syria.  This is a rather large cut above any other example of this sort.

For Muslims in the US, Islamic extremist groups are the place to turn, though. They often feel isolated out of place due to society's reactions to them. That is what opens the door to radicalization. They don't have to be as active in seeking them out as you might think. The travel aspect makes it a bit different, agreed on that, but the process of radicalization by groups like ISIS works is the same.

(02-26-2019, 11:44 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As for compassion, sure, once she truly pays for her monstrous deeds.  As I stated earlier, there are reams of testimony from enslaved, raped, women about how the Isis brides ran herd on them and controlled them for the men.  I'm going to reserve most of my compassion for the poor women who were enslaved and raped en masse.  I'll let you know if I have any left over for someone who joined willingly and went to great pains to do so.

Do you know she took part in that? Do you know those ISIS brides did that willingly? Were they threatened with death or torture if they did not do those things? Is it possible that ISIS brides are also enslaved and forced into marriages they do not want to be a part of?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-26-2019, 11:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: For Muslims in the US, Islamic extremist groups are the place to turn, though. They often feel isolated out of place due to society's reactions to them. That is what opens the door to radicalization. They don't have to be as active in seeking them out as you might think. The travel aspect makes it a bit different, agreed on that, but the process of radicalization by groups like ISIS works is the same.

Which, again, begs the question, should she be tried in Syria before any discussions of returning her to the US take place? 

Quote:Do you know she took part in that? Do you know those ISIS brides did that willingly? Were they threatened with death or torture if they did not do those things? Is it possible that ISIS brides are also enslaved and forced into marriages they do not want to be a part of?

All good questions.  I'm all for letting the authorities in Syria do a thorough investigation and determining all of this.

[Belsnickel]

(02-26-2019, 12:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Which, again, begs the question, should she be tried in Syria before any discussions of returning her to the US take place? 

All good questions.  I'm all for letting the authorities in Syria do a thorough investigation and determining all of this.

If she committed crimes in Syria, then there should be something occurring in the Syrian legal system. However, that does still require that we get the question of her citizenship sorted out. We do have an interest in the proceedings if she is a USC being put through their legal system. If she is a USC, it is our duty to ensure her rights are not being violated by Syria, either.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-26-2019, 12:11 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If she committed crimes in Syria, then there should be something occurring in the Syrian legal system.

I don't think there's any question about that, she willingly joined ISIS.  The only question is the extent of her crimes.

Quote:However, that does still require that we get the question of her citizenship sorted out. We do have an interest in the proceedings if she is a USC being put through their legal system. If she is a USC, it is our duty to ensure her rights are not being violated by Syria, either.

I'm fine with determining if she's a citizen.  I'm equally fine with ensuring her basic rights aren't violated.  I'm also equally fine with not providing her with a US passport as we have no obligation to do so.  Actions have consequences, and there aren't many (any?) choices worse than joining ISIS.

[fredtoast]

(02-25-2019, 02:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So the kid was vilified by the open-minded because what other kids in the crowd were doing? You sure the hat may not have had a tinsey winsey bit to do with folks rush to vilify?  

This is just another version of "Any criticism of Trump is because people hate Trump and it has nothing to do with the actions that are being criticized."

I think a video of a kid smirking at a native American who is surrounded by kids yelling and doing the tomahawk chop would have been news even if there was no MAGA hat.

The same people who complain that the PC culture is out of control and everything is blown up into a racial issue in the news are now claiming that nothing gets blown up into a racial issue on the news unless the perpetrator is wearing a MAGA hat.  So which is it?

I am sure the MAGA was a big point among the people who commented on Facebook and the like, but I don't think it effected the media coverage.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-26-2019, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am sure the MAGA was a big point among the people who commented on Facebook and the like, but I don't think it effected the media coverage.

We've had our differences, Fred but I give you credit for having too much intelligence to actually believe this.

[fredtoast]

(02-26-2019, 12:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: We've had our differences, Fred but I give you credit for having too much intelligence to actually believe this.

Sorry, but I have seen too many viral videos of supposedly racist activity make the news where no one is wearing a MAGA hat.  How do you explain all of those?

It is not just about hating Trump.  It is about reporting on the actual activities in the video.  Just because you ignore all the other parts of the video and claim it is just "a kid smiling and wearing a MAGA hat" that is not really what it was.  The original video showed a mob of boys surrounding this man while they were yelling, making mocking "whooping" sounds, and doing the tomahawk chop.  It would have been a story even if the kid was not wearing a MAGA hat.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-26-2019, 01:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but I have seen too many viral videos of supposedly racist activity make the news where no one is wearing a MAGA hat.  How do you explain all of those?

So, your argument is that because "racist activity" that doesn't involve a MAGA hat gets reported on that this is definitive proof that, in the Covington kids instance, the MAGA hats had nothing to do with the media reporting?  Seriously tenuous, at best, Fred.

Quote:It is not just about hating Trump.  It is about reporting on the actual activities in the video.

 
That you actually made this statement regarding the Covington kids incident is amazingly ironic.

Quote:Just because you ignore all the other parts of the video and claim it is just "a kid smiling and wearing a MAGA hat" that is not really what it was.  The original video showed a mob of boys surrounding this man while they were yelling, making mocking "whooping" sounds, and doing the tomahawk chop.

This claim of yours has been thoroughly debunked in other threads, I don't know why you persist in making it.  If a group of people approach and encircle me they have surrounded me.  If I willingly place myself in the midst of a group of people I have inserted myself into their group, they have not surrounded me.  Very poor argument here, Fred, do please stop making it. 

Quote:It would have been a story even if the kid was not wearing a MAGA hat.

Possibly.  However, this is yet another instance of you asking others to prove a negative, a logical fallacy we learn about in High School.  We can prove something though, was the fact that he was wearing a MAGA hat commented on consistently?

[GMDino]

Holy crap.  We're still arguing about what the first, out of context and short video showed?

Move on folks.

The first video was posted in a deliberate way to make it look like "something" that it wasn't.  Ensuing videos made that clear.  The later videos also showed the boys weren't exactly angels but they weren't the aggressors either.

I was enjoying the discussion on the topic of the thread but geeze!

[*bfine32*]

(02-26-2019, 01:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: Holy crap.  We're still arguing about what the first, out of context and short video showed?

Move on folks.

The first video was posted in a deliberate way to make it look like "something" that it wasn't.  Ensuing videos made that clear.  The later videos also showed the boys weren't exactly angels but they weren't the aggressors either.

I was enjoying the discussion on the topic of the thread but geeze!

I agree this thread has taken a tangent and I blame myself as much as anyone and the ironic thing is I'm the OP, But to be fair it's hard to talk about it elsewhere as every thread started about it has gotten shutdown. I have my opinions as to why it keeps happening but it's just an opinion. Most likely just a coincidence.  

[fredtoast]

(02-26-2019, 01:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, your argument is that because "racist activity" that doesn't involve a MAGA hat gets reported on that this is definitive proof that, in the Covington kids instance, the MAGA hats had nothing to do with the media reporting?  Seriously tenuous, at best, Fred.

But it completely destroys any claim that the ONLY reason the media reports on these types of situations are the presence of MAGA hats.

(02-26-2019, 01:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This claim of yours has been thoroughly debunked in other threads, I don't know why you persist in making it.  If a group of people approach and encircle me they have surrounded me.  If I willingly place myself in the midst of a group of people I have inserted myself into their group, they have not surrounded me.  Very poor argument here, Fred, do please stop making it. 

Guess you are just ignorant of the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs. Apparently you believe that the only way you could ever be surrounded by trees is if they grow up around you. 

The fact that the video does not show how he came to be surrounded is part of the problem, but the video clearly shows that he is surrounded by the whooping crowd of boys.  To argue otherwise is absurd.  

[fredtoast]

(02-26-2019, 01:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  every thread started about it has gotten shutdown. I have my opinions as to why it keeps happening but it's just an opinion. Most likely just a coincidence.