Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 01:37 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Christianity doesn't actively take part?

Help me out here. I'm not following.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-17-2015, 12:24 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I have. A few times in this thread and others but i can again. 

Since man was given free will to choose or reject God, to do good or bad and to seek forgiveness or not. . .

Except Adam and Eve. Now everyone needs to seek forgiveness for His iniquity of brutally punishing two people without a conscience who were incapable of being moral agents and all of posterity.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-17-2015, 01:53 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Help me out here. I'm not following.

Christianity is founded upon Jesus. Christianity takes an active part in people accepting or rejecting God. Some Christian believe that souls are condemned even if the living were unaware of Jesus' existence. Some believe the souls of miscarried fetuses are condemned because they aren't "saved."

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-17-2015, 01:52 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: But not really all that uncommon. 

That means one of us is crazy.

LOL

Happened to me recently at work. Surprised I wasn't fired after calling a VP a liar.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-16-2015, 03:53 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [b]Question: "Does God really forget our sins? How could an omniscient God forget anything?"

Answer:There are several passages in the Bible that indicate that Godforgivesand forgetsour sin.Isaiah 43:25says, “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.”
http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-forget.html
[/b]


So God says he can forget our sins...the same omniscient God that some are saying can't 'not know'. 


Who should i believe? 


P.S. I REAAAALLY hate the formatting on quoted text. W(here)TH are those bold tags coming from?? They're not in this text box as i'm typing??!!  :snark:

That's a pretty literal translation.

I've heard the same thing from my wife after I've done something stupid. I wouldn't bank on a literal translation.

Where does He say He won't bring that shit up again?

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 02:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Christianity is founded upon Jesus. Christianity takes an active part in people accepting or rejecting God.

Some Christian believe that souls are condemned even if the living were unaware of Jesus' existence. Some believe the souls of miscarried fetuses are condemned because they aren't "saved."

God/Christ. Two sides of the same coin. If you believe in the bible, Jesus says  "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." so, assuming you're saying there is no salvation or communion with God unless you're Christian, i'd say yes. But i don't look at it as "active" in the same sense as God predetermining or having any influence on what you choose to do. Christ's birth, death and resurrection caused all sin to be placed on His blood. From that point, it was acceptance of Him that was necessary for us to be redeemed. Taking the place of animal sacrifice or whatever. "Except through me" is just saying, 'no need to do all that other stuff, just ask me'. 

Anyone that believes a child will not go to heaven doesn't read the bible. 
"And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them." Mark 10:13-16

Lots of instances in the bible of people being told to be "childlike". 

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 02:13 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: LOL

Happened to me recently at work. Surprised I wasn't fired after calling a VP a liar.

One perk the relationship i have with the owner of my company is that i can pretty much say anything i want to him. If there's a disagreement, there's no tongue-biting necessary.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 01:58 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Except Adam and Eve. Now everyone needs to seek forgiveness for His iniquity of brutally punishing two people without a conscience who were incapable of being moral agents and all of posterity.

True, but with a bit of assumption and a colorful adjective thrown in. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 02:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That's a pretty literal translation.

I've heard the same thing from my wife after I've done something stupid. I wouldn't bank on a literal translation.

Where does He say He won't bring that shit up again?

Well, i don't necessarily take it that literally. That's why i threw the 'cool shades' smilie in there. I'd more realistically take it to mean once they're forgiven, they won't be brought up again (as if they've been forgotten). Now, if God were a woman...

I wouldn't completely rule out that all-powerful God would be able to make himself forget if he wanted to...and He did say "forget". But since i've not researched the original Hebrew word, i can't say for a relative certainty. 

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-17-2015, 12:24 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I have. A few times in this thread and others but i can again. 

Since man was given free will to choose or reject God, to do good or bad and to seek forgiveness or not, when man chooses to do enough bad that it corrupts a whole city or region, through the free will they were given, they have decided to completely reject God. 

Though that was the case with the flood, God still made a way for anyone that still wanted to accept him to not be affected (killed) by the flood. In the same manner that he created a way for 'the originals' to be redeemed through sacrifice and then some time after the flood, once again, created an easier way for man to be redeemed by Christ's death. 

Every step of the way, the God you keep accusing, continues to make a way for man to get out of the bad he continues to do.

And it all goes back to free will. God wants people to choose to follow him. When they don't, he still waits and makes ways for them to be able to. I could understand the accusatory nature of what's been posted by a few here, but only if you were given one chance and one chance only to get it right. You're given many chances, and by any account, that can only be done through love. (picture flowers and soft music here)

What do you mean "God wants"?  If I'm omniscient, I already know what they are going to do.  If you are arguing he gives people "free will" knowing they will go against his wishes, then ultimately he wants the results of that or he wouldn't have created them to go against his will.  

That's why it makes no sense.  If I want a certain outcome and know for a fact that doing A will not result in that outcome, then it is foolish of me to knowingly say I wanted that certain outcome.  He knows what everything he creates will do so, why would he "want" anything different?  That's like buying an Accord and expecting it to perform like an Indy Car.  Is it really the cars fault that it can't hit 200 miles per hour or is it my fault for knowingly buying it knowing the limitations?    

God ultimately gets exactly what he wants.  Otherwise, he is only sabotaging himself.  

He can't fake ignorance on incompetence when something doesn't go his way.

That's why it is absurd to me.  

[Benton]

(06-17-2015, 02:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Christianity is founded upon Jesus. Christianity takes an active part in people accepting or rejecting God. Some Christian believe that souls are condemned even if the living were unaware of Jesus' existence. Some believe the souls of miscarried fetuses are condemned because they aren't "saved."

I'm not familiar with any. All the teachings (both denominations and writings) I know of have children and any other innocent going to heaven.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 08:47 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: What do you mean "God wants"?  If I'm omniscient, I already know what they are going to do.  If you are arguing he gives people "free will" knowing they will go against his wishes, then ultimately he wants the results of that or he wouldn't have created them to go against his will.  

That's why it makes no sense.  If I want a certain outcome and know for a fact that doing A will not result in that outcome, then it is foolish of me to knowingly say I wanted that certain outcome.  He knows what everything he creates will do so, why would he "want" anything different?  That's like buying an Accord and expecting it to perform like an Indy Car.  Is it really the cars fault that it can't hit 200 miles per hour or is it my fault for knowingly buying it knowing the limitations?    

God ultimately gets exactly what he wants.  Otherwise, he is only sabotaging himself.  

He can't fake ignorance on incompetence when something doesn't go his way.

That's why it is absurd to me.  

He gave free will because he "wants" people to choose Him of their own will. Otherwise he would have just made us drones.

People can stay hung up on omniscience all they want. The end result is always the same. There is an eternity and each person chooses where they want to end up by their actions and the choices they make. 

[*michaelsean*]

(06-17-2015, 02:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He gave free will because he "wants" people to choose Him of their own will. Otherwise he would have just made us drones.

People can stay hung up on omniscience all they want. The end result is always the same. There is an eternity and each person chooses where they want to end up by their actions and the choices they make. 

This is where I have trouble with it.  It is impossible for God to not get what He wants.  I think religion went wrong when it decided life on Earth was some sort of audition for Heaven.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 03:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: This is where I have trouble with it.  It is impossible for God to not get what He wants.

How so?

Quote:I think religion went wrong when it decided life on Earth was some sort of audition for Heaven.

 

What other option would there be for religion to choose?

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-17-2015, 02:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He gave free will because he "wants" people to choose Him of their own will. Otherwise he would have just made us drones.

People can stay hung up on omniscience all they want. The end result is always the same. There is an eternity and each person chooses where they want to end up by their actions and the choices they make. 

This makes no sense:  I "want" a sports car so I build a station wagon.  

God "wants" people to "choose" him but he builds people he knows will not choose him.  

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-17-2015, 03:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: This is where I have trouble with it.  It is impossible for God to not get what He wants.  I think religion went wrong when it decided life on Earth was some sort of audition for Heaven.  

It sounds nice and all, but makes no logical sense given the characteristics they attribute to their god.  

[*michaelsean*]

(06-17-2015, 03:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How so?

 

What other option would there be for religion to choose?

By the nature of the being.  How can anything be denied to God?

The alternative is that we are here to experience our existence differently.  We could do it many times in many different places.  Look at what is expected of us otherwise?  We are born with no knowledge of anything.  We  spend a significant percentage of our life span developing mentally.  Between our maturity and our death, and not everyone lives to 80+, we have to get it right or spend eternity being tortured.  That doesn't make any sense to me.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 03:25 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: This makes no sense:  I "want" a sports car so I build a station wagon.  

God "wants" people to "choose" him but he builds people he knows will not choose him.  

How does it not make sense? He created people and gave them free will. 

It only doesn't make sense if he created people and expected them to always accept him freely, even though he knew some wouldn't. The exact same way it wouldn't make sense if you build a station wagon and expected a sports car.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 03:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: By the nature of the being.  How can anything be denied to God?

The alternative is that we are here to experience our existence differently.  We could do it many times in many different places.  Look at what is expected of us otherwise?  We are born with no knowledge of anything.  We  spend a significant percentage of our life span developing mentally.  Between our maturity and our death, and not everyone lives to 80+, we have to get it right or spend eternity being tortured.  That doesn't make any sense to me.  

Easy. People deny him all the time. Do you disagree with this? Where is it ever stated that He cannot be denied?

And again...how can it not make sense? You know what is asked of you. You know what is written that will happen if you choose not to. There's nothing there that doesn't make sense.

If you said you don't agree with it, fine. But there's nothing senseless about it, as it's written right there for anyone to read. 

[*michaelsean*]

(06-17-2015, 04:42 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Easy. People deny him all the time. Do you disagree with this? Where is it ever stated that He cannot be denied?

And again...how can it not make sense? You know what is asked of you. You know what is written that will happen if you choose not to. There's nothing there that doesn't make sense.

If you said you don't agree with it, fine. But there's nothing senseless about it, as it's written right there for anyone to read. 

No denied as in not getting what He wants. 

It makes no sense to base our eternal soul on what would be less than a blip in time.  It makes no sense to create these souls, and decide to test them where the end result could be eternal torture.  What is the purpose of that?