Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-21-2024, 10:54 AM)Dill Wrote: Nor does Hamas. 

But we can't have and uphold international law 

if we leave it up to the perpetrators of war crimes to decide what is "fair."

The key difference being that Hamas is a criminal organization whose admitted purpose is genocide.  The other is a democratically elected government.  Interesting that the ICC never went after W. Bush or Cheney, though.

[Dill]

(05-21-2024, 11:20 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The key difference being that Hamas is a criminal organization whose admitted purpose is genocide.  The other is a democratically elected government.  Interesting that the ICC never went after W. Bush or Cheney, though.

There will be no "key difference" between the perps, should it be determined war crimes have occurred. 

As for Bush and Cheney, there certainly are grounds for trying them for war crimes. And people attempted that within US and German courts.

But the ICC cannot initiate actions against war criminals resident in states which are not signatories to the Rome Statue, unless some
party from a signatory state elsewhere initiates proceedings, as SA did against Israel recently. As of 2014 that had not happened, and the
world's attention moved to other things.

A second option, referral from the UN Security Council, upon which the US sits, somehow just never happened. 
(PS still working on a peace plan for the ME.) 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-21-2024, 12:08 PM)Dill Wrote: There will be no "key difference" between the perps, should it be determined war crimes have occurred.

Well, we know Hamas did, they broadcast them live. 

Quote:As for Bush and Cheney, there certainly are grounds for trying them for war crimes. And people attempted that within US and German courts.

But the ICC cannot initiate actions against war criminals resident in states which are not signatories to the Rome Statue, unless some
party from a signatory state elsewhere initiates proceedings, as SA did against Israel recently. As of 2014 that had not happened, and the
world's attention moved to other things.

Ahh, yes, those luminary bastions of freedom; South Africa, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Comoros and Djibouti.  Certainly nations with the moral high ground to call for proceedings.

Quote:A second option, referral from the UN Security Council, upon which the US sits, somehow just never happened. 
(PS still working on a peace plan for the ME.) 

The key take away from this is that Hamas' strategy to maximize civilian casualties worked beyond their wildest dreams.  What a sad occurrence, as it gives a perfect blueprint for asymmetric warfare going forward.  Further proof, if any was needed, that the trend towards globalization should be resisted at all costs.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

[Dill]

(05-21-2024, 12:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, we know Hamas did, they broadcast them live. 
Ahh, yes, those luminary bastions of freedom; South Africa, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Comoros and Djibouti.  Certainly nations with the moral high ground to call for proceedings.

I hear some of those countries actually had slavery at one time. Some have also experienced fairly recent coup attempts. 
None are holding 5 million people under military rule without basic human rights, though. 

(05-21-2024, 12:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The key take away from this is that Hamas' strategy to maximize civilian casualties worked beyond their wildest dreams.  What a sad occurrence, as it gives a perfect blueprint for asymmetric warfare going forward.  Further proof, if any was needed, that the trend towards globalization should be resisted at all costs.

The first bolded won't fool or deter ICC investigations into IDF war crimes. It may work in the court of US public opinion,
but in the ICC, Israel won't be able to use an alleged Hamas "strategy" to explain away alleged IDF war crimes. 

From the bolded you get to "globalization"--The increased international connectedness and boost to trade enabled by modern communications technology? 
I have not idea how that could be "resisted" without severely dropping our GDP.

Sure you don't mean "globalism"? That's the usual target of the right--foreign policy based on global rather than national interest.

Still don't see how you connect any of that to the Gaza War.  Wait, could you be imputing to Hamas an IDF level of media savvy? Maybe thinking 
"globalization" enables a Hamas "success" importable to other sites of "asymmetiric warfare"?  (Don't get mad if that's not what you meant. I'm
just having trouble understanding what "trend" is to be resisted and why.) 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-22-2024, 01:34 PM)Dill Wrote: I hear some of those countries actually had slavery at one time.

Oh my, you opened with a spicy zinger.

Quote:Some have also experienced fairly recent coup attempts. 
None are holding 5 million people under military rule without basic human rights, though. 

Seeing as how Israel isn't doing that either I'm not sure what point you think you're making.  Anyways, going into depths on the myriad, and significant flaws of these countries, currently, isn't really the point.

Quote:The first bolded won't fool or deter ICC investigations into IDF war crimes. It may work in the court of US public opinion,
but in the ICC, Israel won't be able to use an alleged Hamas "strategy" to explain away alleged IDF war crimes. 

If they don't take that into account then you're right, Israel has cause to be worried because they're not going to get a fair shake.

Quote:From the bolded you get to "globalization"--The increased international connectedness and boost to trade enabled by modern communications technology? 
I have not idea how that could be "resisted" without severely dropping our GDP.

Sure you don't mean "globalism"? That's the usual target of the right--foreign policy based on global rather than national interest.

Still don't see how you connect any of that to the Gaza War.  Wait, could you be imputing to Hamas an IDF level of media savvy? Maybe thinking 
"globalization" enables a Hamas "success" importable to other sites of "asymmetiric warfare"?  (Don't get mad if that's not what you meant. I'm
just having trouble understanding what "trend" is to be resisted and why.) 

You know exactly what I mean, but I appreciate the smarmy pedantry.  Maximizing civilian casualties to get the exact response form the West is exactly what Hamas wanted to achieve here, and why they make such efforts to maximize civilian casualties.  You, and others like you, really justified their faith in you.  

[Dill]

(05-22-2024, 06:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh my, you opened with a spicy zinger.
Seeing as how Israel isn't doing that either I'm not sure what point you think you're making.  Anyways, going into depths on the myriad, and significant flaws of these countries, currently, isn't really the point.

Israel is not holding five millions people under military control in the West Bank and Gaza Strip--none of whom are Israeli citizens?
ALL of whom are subject to detention without trial for months and years, not to mention collective punishment?

The occupation is invisible to most Americans, but you've at least been exposed to that history via a number of my posts. So whence the denial?

(05-22-2024, 06:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If they don't take that into account then you're right, Israel has cause to be worried because they're not going to get a fair shake.
You know exactly what I mean, but I appreciate the smarmy pedantry.  Maximizing civilian casualties to get the exact response form the West is exactly what Hamas wanted to achieve here, and why they make such efforts to maximize civilian casualties.  You, and others like you, really justified their faith in you.  

Demanding bias in favor of Israel up front while asserting they won't get a "fair shake" otherwise sounds a bit inconsistent.

What the international community should pay attention to is the quality of the investigation and the results--i.e. "smarmy pedantry."

Let go the IDF propaganda; allow the investigation to determine whether it is Israel, Hamas or both who are "maximizing civilian casualties."  

Back to "globalization"--why should that be resisted? How does that figure into accountability for war crimes in Gaza?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-22-2024, 08:09 PM)Dill Wrote: Israel is not holding five millions people under military control in the West Bank and Gaza Strip--none of whom are Israeli citizens?
ALL of whom are subject to detention without trial for months and years, not to mention collective punishment?

They weren't until the government in Gaza declared war on them on 10/07/23.  Were the German and Japanese civilians subjected to collective punishment?

Quote:The occupation is invisible to most Americans, but you've at least been exposed to that history via a number of my posts. So whence the denial?

Because it's not true.

Quote:Demanding bias in favor of Israel up front while asserting they won't get a "fair shake" otherwise sounds a bit inconsistent.

Bias and acknowledging facts are not synonyms. 

Quote:What the international community should pay attention to is the quality of the investigation and the results--i.e. "smarmy pedantry."

No, your smarmy pedantry equal smarmy pedantry.

Quote:Let go the IDF propaganda; allow the investigation to determine whether it is Israel, Hamas or both who are "maximizing civilian casualties."  

It's not propaganda, it's an established fact.  I've provided links.  It's been proving numerous times.  I don't trust any organization, or person, who treats Israel and terrorist gang rapists, infant kidnappers and murderers as equal actors.  Neither does Joe Biden, so maybe you should vote for Trump?

Quote:Back to "globalization"--why should that be resisted? How does that figure into accountability for war crimes in Gaza?

Oh, yes sir.  It should be resisted as any movement that would result in me losing any of my rights as a US citizen is an automatic non-starter.

[Belsnickel]

(05-22-2024, 08:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They weren't until the government in Gaza declared war on them on 10/07/23.  Were the German and Japanese civilians subjected to collective punishment?

Horse shit. Israel has controlled who can move in and out of Gaza at all points other than the Rafah crossing with Egypt for years. They have had them walled in and restricted their activities. The whole reason UNRWA has been in that area for so long is because of the oppression faced by Palestinian people at the hands of Israel. I can agree to disagree on a lot of things, but there is a reason that the situation in Gaza for years has been described as an open air prison.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-22-2024, 09:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Horse shit. Israel has controlled who can move in and out of Gaza at all points other than the Rafah crossing with Egypt for years. They have had them walled in and restricted their activities. The whole reason UNRWA has been in that area for so long is because of the oppression faced by Palestinian people at the hands of Israel. I can agree to disagree on a lot of things, but there is a reason that the situation in Gaza for years has been described as an open air prison.

You raise a rather salient point, Israel does not control all crossing into Gaza.  Why does Egypt escape with nary a mention, except from you?  Also, your statement ignores why they are walled in.  You can have the chicken or the egg argument all day, but the walls aren't there for no reason, as recently illustrated.  I think our position in the US has rather spoiled us, we've never faced the concept of a bitterly hostile nation right on our border.  I'm certainly not saying the Israeli reaction has been ideal, but it's hardly unprovoked.

[Belsnickel]

(05-23-2024, 01:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You raise a rather salient point, Israel does not control all crossing into Gaza.  Why does Egypt escape with nary a mention, except from you?  Also, your statement ignores why they are walled in.  You can have the chicken or the egg argument all day, but the walls aren't there for no reason, as recently illustrated.  I think our position in the US has rather spoiled us, we've never faced the concept of a bitterly hostile nation right on our border.  I'm certainly not saying the Israeli reaction has been ideal, but it's hardly unprovoked.

Erecting a border wall, sure. But the way in which they were forcing the Palestinian people to rely on international aid? Come on now. Also, I was refuting your point that Israel was not holding Gaza and the West Bank under military control until 07 Oct. That has been going on for decades.

As for Egypt, it's because the entirety of the Gazan population are refugees and many more of them would like to leave than Egypt could handle.

We could certainly have the chicken and egg debate to no end, but the reality is that Israel forces those conditions on the Palestinian people. Netanyahu propped up Hamas to support his position against a two-state solution because of their desire to control the entire territory. This is the root of why I do not support his government's actions because I fully believe he made the bed he should lie in.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-23-2024, 09:56 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Erecting a border wall, sure. But the way in which they were forcing the Palestinian people to rely on international aid? Come on now. Also, I was refuting your point that Israel was not holding Gaza and the West Bank under military control until 07 Oct. That has been going on for decades.

As for Egypt, it's because the entirety of the Gazan population are refugees and many more of them would like to leave than Egypt could handle.

We could certainly have the chicken and egg debate to no end, but the reality is that Israel forces those conditions on the Palestinian people. Netanyahu propped up Hamas to support his position against a two-state solution because of their desire to control the entire territory. This is the root of why I do not support his government's actions because I fully believe he made the bed he should lie in.

As you admit, this is very much a chicken or the egg argument.  One thing that cannot be denied is that, whatever the reason and impetus, the people of Gaza elected a terrorist organization to lead them.  One with explicitly expressed genocidal intent.  Without the wall how many more thousands of Israeli citizens would be raped, kidnapped and murdered?

We both agree there is no obvious good guy here in terms of who did what to who first.  At the end of the day we have to deal with the situation as it exists, right now.  That being the case there is clearly a side to support and clearly a side to condemn.  It certainly doesn't give Israel a blank check to act as they please, but turning a blind eye to the deliberate actions of Hamas in terms of civilian casualties is to hand them a huge win.  The ICC absolutely blew it here by treating them as equal actors, once again the West handing Hamas a huge propaganda victory.  

[Dill]

(05-22-2024, 08:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They weren't until the government in Gaza declared war on them on 10/07/23.  Were the German and Japanese civilians subjected to collective punishment?
Because it's not true.
Bias and acknowledging facts are not synonyms. 
No, your smarmy pedantry equal smarmy pedantry.
It's not propaganda, it's an established fact.  I've provided links.  It's been proving numerous times.  I don't trust any organization, or person, who treats Israel and terrorist gang rapists, infant kidnappers and murderers as equal actors.  Neither does Joe Biden, so maybe you should vote for Trump?
Oh, yes sir.  It should be resisted as any movement that would result in me losing any of my rights as a US citizen is an automatic non-starter.

Germans and Japanese subjected civilian populations to collective punishment--one reason that's now a crime, ongoing on the West Bank.
There is no WWII analogy which is going to protect Israel here. 

Any professional investigator who accepted your "no equivalence" standard would not be doing his job. 

I've never seen someone so openly demand that a war crime investigations BEGIN with conclusions. 

The rest is just quippery and denial.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-23-2024, 12:07 PM)Dill Wrote: Germans and Japanese subjected civilian populations to collective punishment--one reason that's now a crime, ongoing on the West Bank.
There is no WWII analogy which is going to protect Israel here.

Per the norm we get a classic Dill obtuse twist.  I asked if German and Japanese civilians were subjected to "collective punishment". 

Quote:Any professional investigator who accepted your "no equivalence" standard would not be doing his job. 

Incorrect.  One could acknowledge the difference in actors and still engage in a fact based investigation.  You don't believe this because you're an extremist and extremists have a hard time believing there are people who aren't like them.

Quote:I've never seen someone so openly demand that a war crime investigations BEGIN with conclusions. 

And you still haven't, because I didn't.

Quote:The rest is just quippery and denial.

Love you, too!

[Dill]

(05-23-2024, 11:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As you admit, this is very much a chicken or the egg argument.  One thing that cannot be denied is that, whatever the reason and impetus, the people of Gaza elected a terrorist organization to lead them.  One with explicitly expressed genocidal intent.  Without the wall how many more thousands of Israeli citizens would be raped, kidnapped and murdered?

The Palestinians did not drive Israelis from their land and box them in Gaza, then build a wall to protect from reprisal for that theft. 

This looks "very much a chicken or the egg argument" only when you start with effects to deny causes.

(05-23-2024, 11:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: We both agree there is no obvious good guy here in terms of who did what to who first.  At the end of the day we have to deal with the situation as it exists, right now.  That being the case there is clearly a side to support and clearly a side to condemn.  It certainly doesn't give Israel a blank check to act as they please, but turning a blind eye to the deliberate actions of Hamas in terms of civilian casualties is to hand them a huge win.  The ICC absolutely blew it here by treating them as equal actors, once again the West handing Hamas a huge propaganda victory.  

Unless one is hopelessly embedded in EITHER/OR, investigating Israel for war crimes along with Hamas is not  eo ipso
"turning a blind eye to the deliberate actions of Hamas." 

It would be Israel's free fire zones which handed Hamas a "huge propaganda victory," if there were such, but there isn't. 
Hamas is a pariah among Muslim nations now; all wish to be rid of them. 

Israel and the IDF are much more skilled at manipulating US opinion than Hamas, as evidenced by the constant repetition of their propaganda
in forums like this. E.g., in Israel, IDF use of civilian hostages has been front and center in Israeli in-house debates and policy for almost three decades
now. "Hamas uses human shields" and "Civilians deaths are Hamas strategy" are for foreign consumption. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-23-2024, 02:07 PM)Dill Wrote: The Palestinians did not drive Israelis from their land and box them in Gaza, then build a wall to protect from reprisal for that theft. 

This looks "very much a chicken or the egg argument" only when you start with effects to deny causes.

You are very correct.  They did not drive the Israelis from their land.  They tried multiple times and got their ass kicked each time, resulting in their current situation.

Quote:Unless one is hopelessly embedded in EITHER/OR, investigating Israel for war crimes along with Hamas is not  eo ipso
"turning a blind eye to the deliberate actions of Hamas." 

One would be forgiven for thinking otherwise when they treat them both as equivalent actors.

Quote:It would be Israel's free fire zones which handed Hamas a "huge propaganda victory," if there were such, but there isn't. 
Hamas is a pariah among Muslim nations now; all wish to be rid of them. 

Iran says hi.

Quote:Israel and the IDF are much more skilled at manipulating US opinion than Hamas, as evidenced by the constant repetition of their propaganda
in forums like this. E.g., in Israel, IDF use of civilian hostages has been front and center in Israeli in-house debates and policy for almost three decades
now. "Hamas uses human shields" and "Civilians deaths are Hamas strategy" are for foreign consumption. 

Hamas is much better at manipulating the current crop of ideological extreme and ignorant youth.  TikTok would like you to know why Osama Bin Laden was right and all.

[Dill]

(05-23-2024, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  I asked if German and Japanese civilians were subjected to "collective punishment". 
Incorrect.  One could acknowledge the difference in actors and still engage in a fact based investigation.  

Yes, German and Japanese civilians were subjected to "collective punishment."
What desperate defense of Israel's use of collective punishment could you ever mount from that "fact"?  

You still don't see the problem with starting an investigation with conclusions--because you don't even recognize you are doing that.

Assuming the actors are by definition unequal from the start is already a "finding" of whom could possibly be guilty of what. 

An unnecessary, public display of partisanship at the outset would destroy any possible international recognition that the investigation findings were impartial.  
To use a term you frequently deploy, your complaint, really, is that the investigation is not "biased" towards Israel from the start.

This aligns with your previous efforts to block any acknowledgment of Israeli war crimes by declaring those who do so "Hamas supporters" and
"antisemites." Then as now, I am arguing for an investigation which begins with facts and the law; without even noticing, you argue that 
an investigation into Gaza war crimes can only be "fair" if it begins by taking a side. 
 

(05-23-2024, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Per the norm we get a classic Dill obtuse twist.... You don't believe this because you're an extremist and extremists have a hard time believing there are people who aren't like them.
And you still haven't, because I didn't.
Love you, too!

This means you are unable to explain or defend your claim that Israel does not hold 5 million people under military rule,
depriving them of their basic human rights. 

Same for the following. 

(05-23-2024, 05:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You are very correct.  They did not drive the Israelis from their land.  They tried multiple times and got their ass kicked each time, resulting in their current situation.
One would be forgiven for thinking otherwise when they treat them both as equivalent actors.
Iran says hi.
Hamas is much better at manipulating the current crop of ideological extreme and ignorant youth.  TikTok would like you to know why Osama Bin Laden was right and all.

[Dill]

(05-23-2024, 09:56 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Erecting a border wall, sure. But the way in which they were forcing the Palestinian people to rely on international aid? Come on now. Also, I was refuting your point that Israel was not holding Gaza and the West Bank under military control until 07 Oct. That has been going on for decades.

As for Egypt, it's because the entirety of the Gazan population are refugees and many more of them would like to leave than Egypt could handle.

We could certainly have the chicken and egg debate to no end, but the reality is that Israel forces those conditions on the Palestinian people. Netanyahu propped up Hamas to support his position against a two-state solution because of their desire to control the entire territory. This is the root of why I do not support his government's actions because I fully believe he made the bed he should lie in.

Excellent points here. I would add two more:

1. Egypt's control of the southern Gaza border is part of the US built policy architecture around Israel.
We pay over 2 billion a year in aid to keep the southern part of the open-air prison enclosed. Most of the Egyptians are
not down with that. So it's not just Israel and Egypt containing Gaza. Many US citizens may not know this, 
but it is widespread knowledge in the Middle East. The US is joined at the hip to the Israeli security state. 

2. Another reason for NOT bringing refugees into Egypt (I believe you already know this) is because Palestinians fear that 
having already driven them from homes in other parts of the Mandate, Israel will take Gaza too. Now many may so fear
for their lives they would take the risk. Not unreasonable to suppose Netanyahu would take that gift if it fell into his lap.

[hollodero]

(05-23-2024, 02:07 PM)Dill Wrote: It would be Israel's free fire zones which handed Hamas a "huge propaganda victory," if there were such, but there isn't. 
Hamas is a pariah among Muslim nations now; all wish to be rid of them. 

Well, calling them pariahs seems to go a bit far. Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh was a guest at Raisi's funeral.

[Belsnickel]

(05-23-2024, 11:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As you admit, this is very much a chicken or the egg argument.  One thing that cannot be denied is that, whatever the reason and impetus, the people of Gaza elected a terrorist organization to lead them.  One with explicitly expressed genocidal intent.  Without the wall how many more thousands of Israeli citizens would be raped, kidnapped and murdered?

Well, I said we could have the debate to no end. I personally think it is obvious where it started but you would disagree. As for the election, it has been pointed out many times that the vast majority of Gazans there today did not vote for Hamas. Hamas has been in power nearly 20 years, before the majority of Gazans living there today were able to vote, even if they were alive.

(05-23-2024, 11:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: We both agree there is no obvious good guy here in terms of who did what to who first.  At the end of the day we have to deal with the situation as it exists, right now.  That being the case there is clearly a side to support and clearly a side to condemn.  It certainly doesn't give Israel a blank check to act as they please, but turning a blind eye to the deliberate actions of Hamas in terms of civilian casualties is to hand them a huge win.  The ICC absolutely blew it here by treating them as equal actors, once again the West handing Hamas a huge propaganda victory.  

The ICC did not treat them as equal actors. That is the narrative coming from some sides, but when you look at the charges in the application and the explanations it is clear that they didn't treat them as equal. I heard some of the conference on the application for the charges and I think it was approached in the way it should be. Looking only at the actions and not at those perpetrating them; looking at it through an objective lens.

(05-23-2024, 06:30 PM)Dill Wrote: 2. Another reason for NOT bringing refugees into Egypt (I believe you already know this) is because Palestinians fear that 
having already driven them from homes in other parts of the Mandate, Israel will take Gaza too. Now many may so fear
for their lives they would take the risk. Not unreasonable to suppose Netanyahu would take that gift if it fell into his lap.

Yeah, that was something I considered adding in there as well. For many of them, especially those that were around to hear of the Nakba directly from those who experienced it (or were even there themselves), there is going to be the sense that leaving Gaza is giving up on their homes and it isn't something they will be very inclined to do.