Mass shootings

[BmorePat87]

McDonalds Trump's budget proposal announced 2 days before the attack would have slashed millions from programs designed to help schools aid in mental health issues, bullying, security, and recovering from incidents like this.

With May approaching, the government needs more money to spend on flying Trump to his resort every weekend so he can eat his double big mac and fish filet dinners with delicious Mar a Lago chocolate cake.

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 12:30 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Using social media is one thing. That is Relegated to your circle, which in their case would be other children and those also within their circles. The exact people who help you through the grieving process.

As for then speaking out through the media. They are not experts on the second amendment or actual gun control policy. If my neighbors car gets broken into, that doesn’t make me all of a sudden an expert on police policy to shut down a car theft ring.

The politicians we elect aren't experts on gun control policy. We have a POTUS that, from what I can tell, doesn't understand how our government works, let alone the nuances of policy. We need to be careful when we say only experts should be talking about any of this, because that isn't how a democracy or a republic works. That's a technocracy. They have the right to express themselves on the issue, if you don't like it or what they have to say, then don't listen.

[Griever]

(02-19-2018, 12:14 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Do you not understand what children go through on grief and trauma?   They are high off of all this attention distracting them from the grief......    usually after death or a traumatic event the extra attention is to help then get over or make sense of what happened. Now the extra attention is to put out platitudes and when the attention goes away the children will be left to deal with their grief.    

Because of this there will be some suicides from this school and if when there are it will be on the media for trotting these children out when the last thing they need is to be giving anti trump speeches and talking about electing democrats.

Is there a reason why you dont want these teens to talk about this? 

[BmorePat87]

(02-19-2018, 01:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The politicians we elect aren't experts on gun control policy. We have a POTUS that, from what I can tell, doesn't understand how our government works, let alone the nuances of policy. We need to be careful when we say only experts should be talking about any of this, because that isn't how a democracy or a republic works. That's a technocracy. They have the right to express themselves on the issue, if you don't like it or what they have to say, then don't listen.

I saw this sort of argument play out this weekend. Laura Ingraham told Lebron James to "shut up and dribble" rather than talk politics. Chris Long responded on twitter with screen shots of actors and musicians on Fox News talking politics. The best was Chuck Norris on climate change and when he referred to Jon Voigt as "The Anaconda Guy". 


Of course people asked, "what does Lebron James" do for society besides dribble balls, to which many people posted about his charities. 

But that's reality. We have a President who is as much of an expert as these other celebrities, but regardless, we live in a society where everyone has the chance to contribute and make their voice heard, for better or for worse. 

[StLucieBengal]

(02-19-2018, 12:49 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A day before the shooting you said that all bullying against children was good. 

Now you care about the grief and trauma they face because you don't want them to advocate against policies you support. 


Solid post.

Certainly you aren’t trying to make compare getting bullied and watching your classmates being killed as the same?

Ofc you are because to you it’s probably the same lol

[StLucieBengal]

(02-19-2018, 01:05 PM)Griever Wrote: Is there a reason why you dont want these teens to talk about this? 

Talking about it is fine and encouraged. Being used as a pawn is quite another.

[Griever]

(02-19-2018, 01:24 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Talking about it is fine and encouraged.   Being used as a pawn is quite another.

i guess we should take your word that they are being used

maye they are just sick and tired of nothing being done?

or you can view school shootings as a type of bullying and think its good for these kids

[Vas Deferens]

(02-19-2018, 12:30 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Using social media is one thing.  That is Relegated to your circle, which in their case would be other children and those also within their circles.    The exact people who help you through the grieving process.    

As for then speaking out through the media.    They are not experts on the second amendment or actual gun control policy.   If my neighbors car gets broken into, that doesn’t make me all of a sudden an expert on police policy to shut down a car theft ring.

remind us of your area of expertise again.  off the top of my head, you have real life experience with gym classes and selling distressed properties.  just want to make sure I apply the same logic to your opinions going forward, dismissing them as a useless cry for help form a completely uninformed individual.

(02-19-2018, 12:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Glad you think is a funny.  We had a year where we had 2 suicides and 1 more attempted.     The grief process for children is serious and if it isn’t taken seriously it leads to real consequences..

stop virtue signaling.  

[Goalpost]

I don't mind that the kids are speaking up. Whether it is a gun issue, or a mental illness issue, or a failure relating to policing methods and mistakes, or school security issues. All issues should be on the table. Kids getting shot is about as wrong as can happen.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-19-2018, 12:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: No one thinks suicide is "funny".

*I* think it is "funny" that you are concerned with young people speaking their minds NOW but not other times.

*I* think it is "funny" that you want to blame media talking to and listening to students who survived the latest school shoot IF there is a suicide and not the emotional trauma they went through DURING the latest school shooting.

When is the last time we saw the friends of victims of illegal immigrant violence on CNN?

[Vas Deferens]

(02-19-2018, 01:39 PM)Goalpost Wrote: I don't mind that the kids are speaking up.  Whether it is a gun issue, or a mental illness issue, or a failure relating to policing methods and mistakes, or school security issues.  All issues should be on the table.  Kids getting shot is about as wrong as can happen.

Yup.  Its one thing when terrible policies enacted today ruin the environment for our kids; whole other story when policy inaction of today gets them killed on the reg.  

I don't feel bad for any of these low lifes that are jealous of how much more intelligent and involved these kids are than they could ever be.  If they wanted to get media coverage for their side of the issue, maybe they should have made better choices and been a more productive member of society.  

[Belsnickel]

(02-19-2018, 01:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: When is the last time we saw the friends of victims of illegal immigrant violence on CNN?

To be fair, everyone that was at that school is a victim. Mass shootings like this don't require a bullet to enter your body for them to leave behind trauma. So these are victims speaking out, not just friends of victims.

[BmorePat87]

(02-19-2018, 01:22 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Certainly you aren’t trying to make compare getting bullied and watching your classmates being killed as the same?    

Ofc you are because to you it’s probably the same lol

No, I'm saying your argument is intellectually dishonest. You're advocating for an emphasis on mental illnesses while glorifying behavior that helps magnify it. You're suggesting suicide is an issue while saying that all bullying is good, even though it can cause suicide. 


You don't actually give a shit about kids, you're trying to use them as a prop while also arguing that them expressing their beliefs is them being used as props. 

[Belsnickel]

So, one of the things that really irritates me is that this is enough of a thing, now, that the generation just out of high school and in school doesn't think about it too much. I take classes at the university, and right now I am in a class with a bunch of 18-19 year olds. In having a conversation with them after the last school shooting, I came to realize that they don't know a world where this isn't a thing. They don't have a pre-Columbine reference point. Much like how they don't know of the world pre-9/11, they don't know a world where the threat of a school shooter isn't something talked about regularly and drilled for.

That is sad.

[Griever]

(02-19-2018, 01:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No, I'm saying your argument is intellectually dishonest. You're advocating for an emphasis on mental illnesses while glorifying behavior that helps magnify it. You're suggesting suicide is an issue while saying that all bullying is good, even though it can cause suicide. 


You don't actually give a shit about kids, you're trying to use them as a prop while also arguing that them expressing their beliefs is them being used as props. 

you mean hes being hypocritical??? you dont say?!

[Vas Deferens]

(02-19-2018, 01:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No, I'm saying your argument is intellectually dishonest. You're advocating for an emphasis on mental illnesses while glorifying behavior that helps magnify it. You're suggesting suicide is an issue while saying that all bullying is good, even though it can cause suicide. 


You don't actually give a shit about kids, you're trying to use them as a prop while also arguing that them expressing their beliefs is them being used as props. 

Wrong!

Its absurd to label anything espoused by a dyed in the wool anti-intellectual as 'intellectually dishonest'.  There is nothing intellectual about their opinions.  They are by definition mere feelings without forethought or objectivity.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-19-2018, 01:38 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: remind us of your area of expertise again.  off the top of my head, you have real life experience with gym classes and selling distressed properties.  just want to make sure I apply the same logic to your opinions going forward, dismissing them as a useless cry for help form a completely uninformed individual.


stop virtue signaling.  

Do you see me going on CNN to discuss policy?

I can however speak as a teacher here who has had to deal with multiple deaths at a high school. It’s a long and tough road to deal with the grief in a school when they lose classmates.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-19-2018, 01:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No, I'm saying your argument is intellectually dishonest. You're advocating for an emphasis on mental illnesses while glorifying behavior that helps magnify it. You're suggesting suicide is an issue while saying that all bullying is good, even though it can cause suicide. 


You don't actually give a shit about kids, you're trying to use them as a prop while also arguing that them expressing their beliefs is them being used as props. 

What an idiotic statement. Par for the course for you though so it’s not surprising.

You will never know how you will respond until someone has you on your heels. Everyone needs these lessons earlier rather than later. We will have a generation of adults getting bullied because they were protected in school and don’t know how to fend for yourself.

[BmorePat87]

(02-19-2018, 02:09 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Do you see me going on CNN to discuss policy?  

I can however speak as a teacher here who has had to deal with multiple deaths at a high school.  It’s a long and tough road to deal with the grief in a school when they lose classmates.

I am speaking as someone who others can confirm is actually a teacher that has dealt with suicide, murder, shooting threats, and mental illnesses.

And at no point would they ever tell us to teach the kids to call each other "******" in the wake of these deaths and to remind them that the bullying these kids experienced was good. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-19-2018, 08:46 AM)GMDino Wrote: I was talking about this on Sunday:

When you bought your gun did you actively say you were buying it in case you needed to fight back against government tyranny?

I'd bet you didn't.  No one ever told me that.  Only time I've ever heard that is after a mass shooting when someone is afraid "they" will come for their guns.

So can we stop pretending THAT is why we have to defend the 2nd amendment?

I'll bet no one did because you don't have to give a reason for purchasing a firearm.  As for your last point, for some, that is the main reason to defend the 2nd amendment.  For some it's not an issue at all.  For most I'll bet there's a small bit of that in their mind.  The fact that you disagree does not invalidate this argument.

(02-19-2018, 09:25 AM)Griever Wrote: yeah because the gun will do a lot of good against a government with tanks, drones, bombs etc

Anytime someone makes this argument my eyes roll so fast I get whiplash.  Does the Taliban have tanks, drones, bombers etc.?  No, and that's why they were so easily defeated and a footnote in history.

(02-19-2018, 10:06 AM)GMDino Wrote: There is a good personal blog post going around that says in essence you don't have an Apache Helicopter...your guns don't matter.

And an active military man told me over the weekend that if you need an AR15 to hunt you really shouldn't be hunting.

You know what the active "military man" didn't say, that your first point had any validity.  The best and most versatile weapon in any military's arsenal is an infantryman and his rifle.  Seriously, anyone who makes the "you have no tanks or helicopters" argument has exposed a depth of ignorance that renders their opinion unworthy of consideration.

(02-19-2018, 12:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The children are choosing to speak out. They are exercising their civil liberties. They have engaged on social media, as well, so they really don't even need the regular media to do anything.

The fact is that our government has gotten less responsive to the people over the years, and the issue of gun control is one place where that is extremely evident. With public opinion as it is on the issue, it is easy to see that they will of the people is being ignored by elected officials. By being victims of such a tragedy, because even those that were not shot are victims, they have been given a voice in our society through their lived experiences. If they choose to use that voice, then why should we stand in their way? Why shouldn't we give them a platform?

I have zero issue with them speaking up, they have as much right as anyone to do so.  Let's not pretend they have any clue what they're talking about though.  It is interesting that their opinion is ascribed more gravitas than that of Steve Scalise.  While the fact that you're eighteen does not render anything you have to say invalid, does anyone really look to eighteen year old's for smart well reasoned policy?