More "largely peaceful" Portland protests

[Belsnickel]

(08-10-2020, 11:14 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not in the slightest.  Would you attend a rally if you knew that it would later devolve into planned violence?  If the message you're rallying for is important would you not then move the peaceful rally to another location instead of choosing the exact same spot to protest in which said violence has occurred the past few weeks?  You are actively choosing to associate yourself with people who are engaging in planned violence on a daily basis.  

If a small percentage of officers are corrupt, why would you actively choose to associate yourself with those corrupt individuals by being employed in that profession? By choosing to be employed in that profession, you are condoning that behavior and are therefore just as bad as those corrupt officers.

That is quite literally the logic of the ACAB movement.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-10-2020, 11:31 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: If a small percentage of officers are corrupt, why would you actively choose to associate yourself with those corrupt individuals by being employed in that profession? By choosing to be employed in that profession, you are condoning that behavior and are therefore just as bad as those corrupt officers.

That is quite literally the logic of the ACAB movement.

Correct, it is they're position.  It also is not comparable to what I'm describing.  It would be if I was joining a department that had a corruption scandal every day.  If I chose to join such a department then the above logic would actually hold true.  Let me ask this a different way, would you attend a rally that you knew the KKK would also be attending on the same side as your position?  

[Belsnickel]

I wouldn't, but that also isn't what is happening. The violence and vandalism is happening after the peaceful protests from what I've seen. So the real question would be the comfortability in sharing some of the same viewpoints as those you may not agree with 100%, especially on methods. If KKK members were at a rally, but not identifying themselves as such, and then after the peaceful assembly had dismissed they donned their hoods and kept going it would create some dissonance for me, sure, but I would still show up if the issue was important enough to me.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-10-2020, 11:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wouldn't, but that also isn't what is happening. The violence and vandalism is happening after the peaceful protests from what I've seen. So the real question would be the comfortability in sharing some of the same viewpoints as those you may not agree with 100%, especially on methods. If KKK members were at a rally, but not identifying themselves as such, and then after the peaceful assembly had dismissed they donned their hoods and kept going it would create some dissonance for me, sure, but I would still show up if the issue was important enough to me.

A fair reply.  Now to make it more analogous to the current situation. After being made aware that KKK members will be at the protest and will be there tomorrow, and the day after, etc... would you still continue to go?

[Belsnickel]

(08-10-2020, 12:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A fair reply.  Now to make it more analogous to the current situation. After being made aware that KKK members will be at the protest and will be there tomorrow, and the day after, etc... would you still continue to go?

I would. If it continued like it did that day, I certainly would. I may change my signage to reflect that there is a distinction and to narrow my message, but if the issue was important enough I would still be there.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-10-2020, 12:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I would. If it continued like it did that day, I certainly would. I may change my signage to reflect that there is a distinction and to narrow my message, but if the issue was important enough I would still be there.

I appreciate the honest answer.  Personally, I would leave immediately and try and find another place to spread my message or show my support.  I wouldn't want to ever be associated with a group like that or with the kind of violence that happens on a daily basis in Portland.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

So, the state police have pulled out of Portland. According to the police captain this was done due to the Portland DA's refusal to actually prosecute rioters who commit crimes.

https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2020/08/13/oregon-state-police-leave-portland-trying-to-fault-the-new-reform-minded-district-attorney-for-their-departure/

"At this time we are inclined to move those resources back to counties where prosecution of criminal conduct is still a priority," OSP Capt. Timothy Fox told Oregon Public Broadcasting and KOIN, among others.

Of course the mayor and governor are now in damage control mode trying to state that they left due to a pre-set time frame. Aside from two politicians having an obvious reason to lie and the state police captain having none, here's how you know the politicians are lying. You don't set a time table to control civil unrest that has been occurring for months. If it's a budget related issue then the lying politicians would have said so. Of course, they leaned on the captain who later "corrected" the record with this statement.

When contacted about OSP's departure, Fox appeared to correct the record, telling WW exactly that: "This decision was based on the fact that our two-week commitment ended last night," Fox emailed. "Troopers are returning to the communities that they are assigned to serve and protect."

And if you believe that, bridge to sell, etc... Of course it's possible that there was a time frame (although as I said this would be stupid given the totality of the circumstances) and Captain Fox was merely expressing his disgust for the Portland DA as they left. It all adds up to what I've been saying this entire time, Portland authorities have conceded their power to, and enabled, an angry mob. In a just world they'd all be removed from office last month.

[GMDino]

(08-14-2020, 12:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, the state police have pulled out of Portland.  According to the police captain this was done due to the Portland DA's refusal to actually prosecute rioters who commit crimes.

https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2020/08/13/oregon-state-police-leave-portland-trying-to-fault-the-new-reform-minded-district-attorney-for-their-departure/

"At this time we are inclined to move those resources back to counties where prosecution of criminal conduct is still a priority," OSP Capt. Timothy Fox told Oregon Public Broadcasting and KOIN, among others.

Of course the mayor and governor are now in damage control mode trying to state that they left due to a pre-set time frame.  Aside from two politicians having an obvious reason to lie and the state police captain having none, here's how you know the politicians are lying.  You don't set a time table to control civil unrest that has been occurring for months.  If it's a budget related issue then the lying politicians would have said so.  Of course, they leaned on the captain who later "corrected" the record with this statement.

When contacted about OSP's departure, Fox appeared to correct the record, telling WW exactly that: "This decision was based on the fact that our two-week commitment ended last night," Fox emailed. "Troopers are returning to the communities that they are assigned to serve and protect."

And if you believe that, bridge to sell, etc...  Of course it's possible that there was a time frame (although as I said this would be stupid given the totality of the circumstances) and Captain Fox was merely expressing his disgust for the Portland DA as they left.  It all adds up to what I've been saying this entire time, Portland authorities have conceded their power to, and enabled, an angry mob.  In a just world they'd all be removed from office last month.

It's nice when public servants can just walk away and say they won't do their jobs because they don't want to any more.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-14-2020, 12:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: It's nice when public servants can just walk away and say they won't do their jobs because they don't want to any more.

Excellent post.  Not only did it contribute to the topic it advanced the conversation.

[*Nately120*]

At what point do riots become as commonplace and overlooked as "the war?" I almost feel like the average American is just sort of getting used to this stuff and it's another regular ol' thing in these parts. It's cold in Canada, it's hot in Mexico, the war on terror approaches it's 3rd decade of existence, and a segment of the US population is going crazy over something.

At least we don't have to mention Marvin Lewis any more when it comes to status quo.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-14-2020, 12:43 PM)Nately120 Wrote: At what point do riots become as commonplace and overlooked as "the war?"  I almost feel like the average American is just sort of getting used to this stuff and it's another regular ol' thing in these parts.  It's cold in Canada, it's hot in Mexico, the war on terror approaches it's 3rd decade of existence, and a segment of the US population is going crazy over something.

At least we don't have to mention Marvin Lewis any more when it comes to status quo.

That's an excellent point.  It does appear there's a segment of our population who wants to excuse this as the new norm.

[*Nately120*]

(08-14-2020, 12:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's an excellent point.  It does appear there's a segment of our population who wants to excuse this as the new norm.

Add in the fact that no matter which side wins the 2020 election there is going to be a call to arms to protest the result.  Whether real or perceived, it seems akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater to use systematic oppression as a tool to facilitate nothing more than a political "win."  This is what extreme rhetoric and extreme measures get you.

But hey, everyone wins.  Right now liberals get to be the revolutionary force they dreamed of being and neo-cons get to chortle with glee as Trump hides behind his walls of money and power and sends out the troops to give those whiney soy-eating wimps a good beatdown.  And if Trump loses in in 2020 we might get to see a bunch of 300lb rednecks finally try to play rebel with the national guard.

It's almost like you can't demonize the hell out of "the other side" and expect people to just play nice.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-14-2020, 01:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Add in the fact that no matter which side wins the 2020 election there is going to be a call to arms to protest the result.  Whether real or perceived, it seems akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater to use systematic oppression as a tool to facilitate nothing more than a political "win."  This is what extreme rhetoric and extreme measures get you.

But hey, everyone wins.  Right now liberals get to be the revolutionary force they dreamed of being and neo-cons get to chortle with glee as Trump hides behind his walls of money and power and sends out the troops to give those whiney soy-eating wimps a good beatdown.  And if Trump loses in in 2020 we might get to see a bunch of 300lb rednecks finally try to play rebel with the national guard.

It's almost like you can't demonize the hell out of "the other side" and expect people to just play nice.

This is a depressingly accurate assessment of the current climate.

[*Nately120*]

(08-14-2020, 01:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is a depressingly accurate assessment of the current climate.

Maybe I'm just in too much of a funk but it legitimately seems like political strategists went "What if we applied the same level of fear and hatred to our political opponents that was used for the Nazis and Japanese in WWII or the terrorists in the early 2000s?" We are being told that we are under attack and people, like any other animal, can get aggressive when they are convinced they are in a flight or fight situation.

[Belsnickel]

(08-14-2020, 01:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe I'm just in too much of a funk but it legitimately seems like political strategists went "What if we applied the same level of fear and hatred to our political opponents that was used for the Nazis and Japanese in WWII or the terrorists in the early 2000s?" We are being told that we are under attack and people, like any other animal, can get aggressive when they are convinced they are in a flight or fight situation.

This is essentially what has been done for a few decades now. I believe it was a memo from Gingrich that kicked this off where he advised for the use of more aggressive language when discussing political opponents with the intention of making them the enemy rather than just the other side of the aisle. The Democrats, instead of taking the high road, fell into the same pattern in many ways, but they've never been as good at it. His strategy works, too, and was one of the components to the efforts to take over all of the state houses and whatnot.

[samhain]

(08-14-2020, 01:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe I'm just in too much of a funk but it legitimately seems like political strategists went "What if we applied the same level of fear and hatred to our political opponents that was used for the Nazis and Japanese in WWII or the terrorists in the early 2000s?"  We are being told that we are under attack and people, like any other animal, can get aggressive when they are convinced they are in a flight or fight situation.

They sure did.  Now we get Qanon mental midgets in Congress for their efforts.  This country is finished.

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-14-2020, 03:32 PM)samhain Wrote: They sure did.  Now we get Qanon mental midgets in Congress for their efforts.  This country is finished.

No. The beat goes on. Democrats will regain power next year and the adults will clean up the mess created by republicans again. This country isn’t going anywhere.

[Dill]

(08-14-2020, 03:11 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is essentially what has been done for a few decades now. I believe it was a memo from Gingrich that kicked this off where he advised for the use of more aggressive language when discussing political opponents with the intention of making them the enemy rather than just the other side of the aisle. The Democrats, instead of taking the high road, fell into the same pattern in many ways, but they've never been as good at it. His strategy works, too, and was one of the components to the efforts to take over all of the state houses and whatnot.

I think they have never been as good at it because most don't want to be. And their constituents will make them pay in most districts.

And there are no Democrats in the Trump class of demonization.

Gingrich is a good starting point for understanding this history of incivility as a tactic*, though I would say his pursuit of Wright in speeches on the House floor is when and where the line was first massively and publicly crossed at the national level. Dems mistakenly thought it would be over when Wright was gone, not realizing this new mode of scurrilous personal attack was a method.

*Some might want to take this all the way back Nixon/Agnew, or even McCarthy. But as these individuals didn't really much alter behavior on party-wide scale, Gingrich is probably the best choice.

[Dill]

(08-14-2020, 03:52 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: No. The beat goes on. Democrats will regain power next year and the adults will clean up the mess created by republicans again. This country isn’t going anywhere.

If we have people in power who actually want to govern, I'd say that was a step forward.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Interesting that the thread has completely veered of topic and morphed into "Trump bad". I suppose we can't even address the abdication of responsibility by the mayor of Portland in a thread about the riots in Portland. I wonder why the desire to completely avoid addressing this issue is so strong?