More "largely peaceful" Portland protests

[samhain]

(08-14-2020, 03:52 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: No. The beat goes on. Democrats will regain power next year and the adults will clean up the mess created by republicans again. This country isn’t going anywhere.

If you can get the number of people that believe in that pig shit to where it is now, then you are a failed state.  Your education system has failed to teach people to think critically, as have parents.  I have a sneaking suspicion that their movement will swell like a tick on Dracula if the Dems gain power.  It will be the astroturf Tea Party part 2, except this time with zero basis in any kind of rational platform.  Just a bunch of nutbags smelling each other's farts and accusing people of molesting kids because they don't like them.  What a sad society.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-14-2020, 09:52 PM)samhain Wrote: If you can get the number of people that believe in that pig shit to where it is now, then you are a failed state.  Your education system has failed to teach people to think critically, as have parents.  I have a sneaking suspicion that their movement will swell like a tick on Dracula if the Dems gain power.  It will be the astroturf Tea Party part 2, except this time with zero basis in any kind of rational platform.  Just a bunch of nutbags smelling each other's farts and accusing people of molesting kids because they don't like them.  What a sad society.

I think what's sad is privileged white radicals burning their cities to the ground due to years of liberal indoctrination.

If that's the product of "critical thinking," then I'd rather be ignorant.

  

[samhain]

(08-14-2020, 11:38 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: I think what's sad is privileged white radicals burning their cities to the ground due to years of liberal indoctrination.

If that's the product of "critical thinking," then I'd rather be ignorant.

  

Sad for sure, but not quite as sad as people believing in human-animal hybrids being bred to feed liberal prostitution rings or JFK Jr hiding as a covert operative.  They straight up believe shit that isn't real.  Riots will subside.  Stupidity, however, will last forever.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-15-2020, 12:24 AM)samhain Wrote: Sad for sure, but not quite as sad as people believing in human-animal hybrids being bred to feed liberal prostitution rings or JFK Jr hiding as a covert operative.  They straight up believe shit that isn't real.  Riots will subside.  Stupidity, however, will last forever.

The right doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity though.  

I don't know were you guys find these people that believe in all that stuff.  Maybe they exist on right wing message boards, but I do not frequent them.  I live in a really conservative Texas town of around 250,000 and no one I talk to goes for any of that.   

I understand there are some real cavemen in the ranks of Trump supporters, but he didn't get 48% of the popular vote on that.  There are still genuine, hardworking, decent Americans out there who love their country and hate seeing what is happening to it.    

I try only going off of what I see in real life.

The rednecks carrying the AR-15's that were protesting the shutdown were goofy as hell.  I'll give you that.  At this point, people who refuse to wear a mask in public are trolls, I'll give you that too.  The tiki torch carrying crowd are embarrassing, but besides being an obnoxious presence they don't do much other than march, for obvious reasons.  

Radical leftists, on the other hand, are actively terrorizing innocent business owners and pelting those they disagree with on college campuses.  They are assaulting police officers with projectiles when the officers are literally just standing there making sure they don't wreck the place.

The radical right is currently shut down by societal convention, which is a good thing.  The radical left, OTOH, is emboldened because they feel they have the backing of all types of mainstream media, big technological corporations, professional sports, colleges, and politicians in liberal cities.  

I promise you the average person sees this.  If it wasn't for Portland and Chicago, Biden would be leading by 15 points right now.

What happened to Floyd was terrible, but it was looped on television nonstop for a whole week and the msm made it out as if the entire police force everywhere was like that Minnesota cop, which is a blatant lie.  They overplayed their hand and created a monster.  If by some miracle Trump somehow pulls this out, what's been going on in these cities will be the nudge that tilted things in his direction.        

[samhain]

(08-15-2020, 03:14 AM)Von Cichlid Wrote: The right doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity though.  

I don't know were you guys find these people that believe in all that stuff.  Maybe they exist on right wing message boards, but I do not frequent them.  I live in a really conservative Texas town of around 250,000 and no one I talk to goes for any of that.   

I understand there are some real cavemen in the ranks of Trump supporters, but he didn't get 48% of the popular vote on that.  There are still genuine, hardworking, decent Americans out there who love their country and hate seeing what is happening to it.    

I try only going off of what I see in real life.

The rednecks carrying the AR-15's that were protesting the shutdown were goofy as hell.  I'll give you that.  At this point, people who refuse to wear a mask in public are trolls, I'll give you that too.  The tiki torch carrying crowd are embarrassing, but besides being an obnoxious presence they don't do much other than march, for obvious reasons.  

Radical leftists, on the other hand, are actively terrorizing innocent business owners and pelting those they disagree with on college campuses.  They are assaulting police officers with projectiles when the officers are literally just standing there making sure they don't wreck the place.

The radical right is currently shut down by societal convention, which is a good thing.  The radical left, OTOH, is emboldened because they feel they have the backing of all types of mainstream media, big technological corporations, professional sports, colleges, and politicians in liberal cities.  

I promise you the average person sees this.  If it wasn't for Portland and Chicago, Biden would be leading by 15 points right now.

What happened to Floyd was terrible, but it was looped on television nonstop for a whole week and the msm made it out as if the entire police force everywhere was like that Minnesota cop, which is a blatant lie.  They overplayed their hand and created a monster.  If by some miracle Trump somehow pulls this out, what's been going on in these cities will be the nudge that tilted things in his direction.        

I don't disagree.  I feel that the people protesting are hurting the left more than helping at this point.  It's more of an intramural sport than the revolution they envision.  Overcorrection is a very dangerous thing.

Unrelated: do you actually keep cichlids?

[Dill]

(08-14-2020, 11:38 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: I think what's sad is privileged white radicals burning their cities to the ground due to years of liberal indoctrination.

If that's the product of "critical thinking," then I'd rather be ignorant.

I am curious about the reference to "liberal indoctrination." In what does it consist and where does it occur? 

Which cities have burned to the ground? I know some rioters have started fires in Minneapolis and Portland. Not sure all were started by privileged white radicals though. The Minnesota ATF has posted a number of pictures of people suspected of burning the police precinct building in Minneapolis, and to me they look mostly non-white and not especially priveleged.
https://www.fox9.com/news/atf-makes-13-arson-arrests-since-twin-cities-riots-releases-new-images

I keep hearing rioters who get arrested but I've heard little about who they are. Maybe white liberals are joining protests with non-whites, and not-so-liberals of who knows what identity see in that an opportunity for mayhem, arson and theft?

Also what Texas city are you in, Lubbock?

[Von Cichlid]

(08-15-2020, 03:40 AM)samhain Wrote: I don't disagree.  I feel that the people protesting are hurting the left more than helping at this point.  It's more of an intramural sport than the revolution they envision.  Overcorrection is a very dangerous thing.

Unrelated: do you actually keep cichlids?

Glad you asked!  At one point I had 10 aquariums set up in my house.  If had just about every kind over the last 20 yrs.  Africans from Malawi, Tanganyika.  I love the large Central and South American varieties.  I've even kept species from Haiti and Madagascar.

I'm down to one tank now because I am too old and busy to care for that much and don't have the money to hire the labor out, but if I won the lotto I would dive right back in.

Also unrelated:  What is your favorite Samhain album?  Mine is Initium.  Still have the cassette I picked up in a music store 30 years ago.

[samhain]

(08-15-2020, 04:16 AM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Glad you asked!  At one point I had 10 aquariums set up in my house.  If had just about every kind over the last 20 yrs.  Africans from Malawi, Tanganyika.  I love the large Central and South American varieties.  I've even kept species from Haiti and Madagascar.

I'm down to one tank now because I am too old and busy to care for that much and don't have the money to hire the labor out, but if I won the lotto I would dive right back in.

Also unrelated:  What is your favorite Samhain album?  Mine is Initium.  Still have the cassette I picked up in a music store 30 years agoI

I'm more of a classic Misfits guy, but I do love November Coming Fire.  Danzig was an underrated singer IMO.  

My wife and I I have a tank with some black ramerezi right now.  We love them.  I like discus, but I can't afford to lose 120 dollar fish, lol.  My time is spent on my reptiles, which take up a lot of time and not a small amount of money.  As you said, If I won the lottery, I'd have a house full of reptiles, fish, and exotic plants and be just fine not leaving. We found a store in Dayton called Gerber's Tropical Fish last year and it's taken a chunk of my money. They have everything imaginable and more.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-15-2020, 03:41 AM)Dill Wrote: I am curious about the reference to "liberal indoctrination." In what does it consist and where does it occur? 

Which cities have burned to the ground? I know some rioters have started fires in Minneapolis and Portland. Not sure all were started by privileged white radicals though. The Minnesota ATF has posted a number of pictures of people suspected of burning the police precinct building in Minneapolis, and to me they look mostly non-white and not especially priveleged.
https://www.fox9.com/news/atf-makes-13-arson-arrests-since-twin-cities-riots-releases-new-images

I keep hearing rioters who get arrested but I've heard little about who they are. Maybe white liberals are joining protests with non-whites, and not-so-liberals of who knows what identity see in that an opportunity for mayhem, arson and theft?

Also what Texas city are you in, Lubbock?

The notion of liberal indoctrination at the university level is new to you?

I'm too tired to write substantially about it now but I might be able to find some books on the subject.      


"Cities being burned to the ground" is hyperbole.  I would say it is a common phrase to describe something like we are seeing in a lot of cities right now.  After over 70 days straight of fireworks and burning cop cars and looting, it all congeals in my mind to something like a big dumpster fire.

The Minnesota riots were early in this and occurred when this phenomena had legitimacy to a lot of people.  I don't think Minnesota is getting much of the focus now.  Portland is the epicenter currently and it is now 76% white and 6% black.  This is the city where every video I've seen has white agitators who are prolonging this.  I'll find some videos to support this I promise, but not right now.



Yeah I'm from Lubbock.  Do you know the area?    

 

[Dill]

(08-15-2020, 04:50 AM)Von Cichlid Wrote: The notion of liberal indoctrination at the university level is new to you?
I'm too tired to write substantially about it now but I might be able to find some books on the subject.     

"Cities being burned to the ground" is hyperbole.  I would say it is a common phrase to describe something like we are seeing in a lot of cities right now.  After over 70 days straight of fireworks and burning cop cars and looting, it all congeals in my mind to something like a big dumpster fire.

The Minnesota riots were early in this and occurred when this phenomena had legitimacy to a lot of people.  I don't think Minnesota is getting much of the focus now.  Portland is the epicenter currently and it is now 76% white and 6% black.  This is the city where every video I've seen has white agitators who are prolonging this.  I'll find some videos to support this I promise, but not right now.

Yeah I'm from Lubbock.  Do you know the area?   

Well it's not new to me that people claim universities "indoctrinate." In the US that began in the 19th century with the emergence of research universities. They became a place where people taught evolution and non-denominational history and that "critical thinking" stuff that Samhain referred to. For a hundred years or so they were a symbol of progress and an aspirational goal for Americans who could afford the education they offered. They produced "experts" who spoke with the authority of science and staffed government and business with their graduates. After 1933, they were poised to take over world leadership in science and engineering.

But also many parents were not happy that their children came back from college with new ideas and often set to question their elders' religious teachings. By 1940, some Evangelical denominations had constructed a network of their own colleges to an education less tainted by Enlightenment ideals. (A lot of them in Texas. My parents met at Howard Payne.)

After the Nixon debacle and Vietnam, though, universities were perceived as a source of the wrong kind of critical thinking--the kind that criticized government policies and capitalism as well as traditional religion. Thereafter was a more concerted effort on the part of Corporate America and politically organized conservatives to undermine their autonomy, in part through defunding the publicly supported ones, and in part by casting them as "leftist" indoctrination machines in need of external (state) control. Anyway, that seems to me the background of current claims of indoctrination. The complaint is not not so much about "indoctrination" per se as about the wrong (progressive) kind.

As far as riots go, I guess Portland is 77% white, so I expect we'll see lots of white folks among the protestors. No need to post video links. What interests me is the background of those specifically arrested for rioting. Are they from Portland? Are they college students? Unemployed? Identified with organizations like Anti-fa? Opportunists? I continue to see the rioters as mostly separate from the peaceful protestors, and I'd like to hear from them why they are doing what they are doing.

Lubbock--I have driven through there a number of times--reddish soil and cotton fields. I was born in Texas, though I never really lived there. I still have lots of family there (15 cousins and their families) and return to visit them every few years. All flat where y'all are. lol

[Von Cichlid]

(08-15-2020, 11:22 AM)Dill Wrote: Well it's not new to me that people claim universities "indoctrinate." In the US that began in the 19th century with the emergence of research universities. They became a place where people taught evolution and non-denominational history and that "critical thinking" stuff that Samhain referred to. For a hundred years or so they were a symbol of progress and an aspirational goal for Americans who could afford the education they offered. They produced "experts" who spoke with the authority of science and staffed government and business with their graduates. After 1933, they were poised to take over world leadership in science and engineering.

But also many parents were not happy that their children came back from college with new ideas and often set to question their elders' religious teachings. By 1940, some Evangelical denominations had constructed a network of their own colleges to an education less tainted by Enlightenment ideals. (A lot of them in Texas. My parents met at Howard Payne.)

After the Nixon debacle and Vietnam, though, universities were perceived as a source of the wrong kind of critical thinking--the kind that criticized government policies and capitalism as well as traditional religion. Thereafter was a more concerted effort on the part of Corporate America and politically organized conservatives to undermine their autonomy, in part through defunding the publicly supported ones, and in part by casting them as "leftist" indoctrination machines in need of external (state) control. Anyway, that seems to me the background of current claims of indoctrination. The complaint is not not so much about "indoctrination" per se as about the wrong (progressive) kind.

As far as riots go, I guess Portland is 77% white, so I expect we'll see lots of white folks among the protestors. No need to post video links. What interests me is the background of those specifically arrested for rioting. Are they from Portland? Are they college students? Unemployed? Identified with organizations like Anti-fa? Opportunists? I continue to see the rioters as mostly separate from the peaceful protestors, and I'd like to hear from them why they are doing what they are doing.

Lubbock--I have driven through there a number of times--reddish soil and cotton fields. I was born in Texas, though I never really lived there. I still have lots of family there (15 cousins and their families) and return to visit them every few years. All flat where y'all are. lol

 
Probably the best reason for the phenomena is the fact that over 90% of college professors lean left.  I would wager that most of that 90% are extreme far left depending on the geographic location.  Especially the ones in the liberal arts and the humanities.  

Those subjects don't have the pure objectivity to them like the math and hard sciences do, so it is inevitable that a given professors bias would show through, even though they might try to hide it.  I'm pretty sure the ones with tenure make no effort at all.  

To illustrate, I just found this yesterday:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-economist-proposes-12-trillion-141352636.html


Stuff like this is being pushed on impressionable students way before they have the life experience to ascertain the ludicrousness of such a plan.  Maybe this was an isolated case, but the idea is spreading and it is being validated by people like this professor.  Much more can be said on the ramifications of such a plan, but I don't want to get into that here.

As far as Portland goes, I would bet the daytime protests are mostly college students and unemployed and at night is when the antifa members take over.


I've lived in Lubbock since I was 10 and my wife and I have too much family here so it would be hard to move, but yeah, the geography leaves a little to be desired in this part of Texas.  Best thing I can say is the humidity is low and you always get amazing sunsets.  The people and the economy are good though.  It is like a really big small town.




     

[Von Cichlid]

(08-15-2020, 04:26 AM)samhain Wrote: I'm more of a classic Misfits guy, but I do love November Coming Fire.  Danzig was an underrated singer IMO.  

My wife and I I have a tank with some black ramerezi right now.  We love them.  I like discus, but I can't afford to lose 120 dollar fish, lol.  My time is spent on my reptiles, which take up a lot of time and not a small amount of money.  As you said, If I won the lottery, I'd have a house full of reptiles, fish, and exotic plants and be just fine not leaving.  We found a store in Dayton called Gerber's Tropical Fish last year and it's taken a chunk of my money.  They have everything imaginable and more.

I know about blue and Bolivian rams, but I will have to read about the black ones.  I love those fish because you get the same intelligent behavior as the larger South Americans but without the need for massive tanks to curb aggression and prevent rapid pollution.  I have kept discuss before.  I had a nice pair in a large planted tank for over a year.  Then I introduced some cardinal tetras and that cause ich to take over and kill the discus.  Discus are actually hardy given their water requirements are met, but they absolutely cannot handle that disease. 

A good LFS is a total money pit.  Especially if you go in every week and expose yourself to the new stock.  At one point I was into fresh and saltwater at the same time.  That was when the wife put an end to the insanity.   

[*Nately120*]

(08-15-2020, 12:49 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Stuff like this is being pushed on impressionable students way before they have the life experience to ascertain the ludicrousness of such a plan. 

Taken alone, this sentence makes its sound like you'd get hopping mad that people would dare to take a kid to church, too.

[Dill]

(08-15-2020, 12:49 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Probably the best reason for the phenomena is the fact that over 90% of college professors lean left.  I would wager that most of that 90% are extreme far left depending on the geographic location.  Especially the ones in the liberal arts and the humanities.  

Those subjects don't have the pure objectivity to them like the math and hard sciences do, so it is inevitable that a given professors bias would show through, even though they might try to hide it.  I'm pretty sure the ones with tenure make no effort at all.  

To illustrate, I just found this yesterday:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-economist-proposes-12-trillion-141352636.html

Stuff like this is being pushed on impressionable students way before they have the life experience to ascertain the ludicrousness of such a plan.  Maybe this was an isolated case, but the idea is spreading and it is being validated by people like this professor.  Much more can be said on the ramifications of such a plan, but I don't want to get into that here.

As far as Portland goes, I would bet the daytime protests are mostly college students and unemployed and at night is when the antifa members take over.

I've lived in Lubbock since I was 10 and my wife and I have too much family here so it would be hard to move, but yeah, the geography leaves a little to be desired in this part of Texas.  Best thing I can say is the humidity is low and you always get amazing sunsets.  The people and the economy are good though.  It is like a really big small town.

Thanks for the response, Von. Your comments on the "leftist" professors brought up two memories. 

1. When I was an undergraduate back in the early 70s, one of my physics professors was fond of introducing Communist China into physics discussions, via questions like how much earth could 75,000 Chinese with shovels move in 36 hours digging at X rate and the like (which isn't even a physics problem). This was during the Vietnam War and the goal, I believe, was to wake us to the Yellow Peril. One of my English professors published anti-Vietnam War poetry. He never talked about the war in class, though. I scared him one day by telling him I thought Nixon was a "strong" leader. lol

2. When my own kids were attending our local PA university back in 2004-05, right-wing provocateur David Horowitz was advancing his Academic Bill of Rights to protect conservatives right to free speech in universities. I remember one news paper account mentioned something like 100+ cases of serious abuse in PA, like grades lowered on political grounds and science professors using class time to force students to watch Michael Moore films.  Economics and Poly sci departments were supposed to be dominated by Marxists--to the surprise of professors in those departments. Horowitz got to make his case to the PA legislature. Over 70 students would come forward and testify about incidents like professors criticizing the Iraw War in biology classes. Then it all collapsed. Incidents like the professor showing Michael Moore films, when traced back to origins, tended to stop at Republican campaign staffers or anonymous emails or Horowitz himself. The student list went down to one or two. I don't think one complaint was ever actually verified. Horowitz still claimed he had awakened people to the problem, though he could not chase down every report for nit-picking legislators and academics. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/01/11/retractions-david-horowitz. He failed to get his ABOR adopted in PA but I think he was successful in SC.  Also I remember my son had a sociology class from a professor who proclaimed he was an "anti-feminist," and a math professor who was a Michael Savage fan. That guy once offered to give everyone in class the median score on a test, by way of explaining what Communism was all about, as well as the statistical concept. (This was about the same time that our then Senator, Rick Santorum, was trying add a codicil to the No Child Left Behind Act which would create equal time for Creationism in schools and universities, as if that were an issue of academic freedom.)

Horowitz' movement was in part inspired by conservative media polls and the 1999 Carnegie Foundation Report showing that most professors voted Dem, which I guess was equated to "leftist."  Now such polls and studies are a regular occurrence. As you note, discipline plays an important role here. E.g. Engineering and Agriculture are pretty conservative. My wife teaches in a Music dept which has at least two Trump supporters on her floor. Probably won't find any in the Women's Studies dept. though. Or maybe her school doesn't have one. Just an underfunded program which draws professors from other disciplines.

The reparations issue--that would be fun to discuss but probably on a different thread.

Anyway, all this talk about education and indoctrination brings me back to what's going on in Portland. Where do the rioters (not protestors) come from? Is their behavior really stemming from classes on college campuses or is this driven by online websites, essays, and organizing, or are the rioters mostly opportunists? Is there a mix, a ratio of one type to another? I don't live in Portland, so no way to get an answer until our media interview or otherwise report on them.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-15-2020, 01:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Taken alone, this sentence makes its sound like you'd get hopping mad that people would dare to take a kid to church, too.

It is interesting that you are equating the methods of the spread of liberalism to religious worship.  I don't think you are wrong in that regard.


I figure it's a parent's right to raise their child in the manner they see fit, as long as any laws are not violated.  If you wan't your children to believe in God, then exposing them through Sunday school is a good idea.

The difference to me though is that the college might advertise that economics class as neutral, and designed in order to encourage critical thought .  The church doesn't advertise itself as neutral and you know if you are there then you are hearing scripture. 

On the other hand, it is not necessarily wrong that colleges like that should exist.  A parent may want that for their young adult.  A parent may not want that either, but they would have no way of knowing what they are paying for unless they did their research.

There are Christian universities too.  But the Christian universities proclaim there Christianity for every one to see. 
         

[*Nately120*]

(08-15-2020, 05:34 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: It is interesting that you are equating the methods of the spread of liberalism to religious worship.  I don't think you are wrong in that regard.


I figure it's a parent's right to raise their child in the manner they see fit, as long as any laws are not violated.  If you wan't your children to believe in God, then exposing them through Sunday school is a good idea.

The difference to me though is that the college might advertise that economics class as neutral, and designed in order to encourage critical thought .  The church doesn't advertise itself as neutral and you know if you are there then you are hearing scripture. 

On the other hand, it is not necessarily wrong that colleges like that should exist.  A parent may want that for their young adult.  A parent may not want that either, but they would have no way of knowing what they are paying for unless they did their research.

There are Christian universities too.  But the Christian universities proclaim there Christianity for every one to see. 
         

Nothing is preventing conservatives from becoming college professors and sneakily indoctrinating vulnerable students with the glories of trickle down economics. I don't even have an issue with admitting bias of any sort, it's just this notion that alternate political views are being injected into young minds in the most sinister manners as if people with differing views are simple drug pushers looking to warp the minds of the vulnerable so they can control them.

My wife's nephew went to trade school to be a wielder. It never really occurred to me to blame his conservative views and chewing tobacco use on those dastardly right-wing instructors he had.

[GMDino]

Peaceful protest...then the "Proud Boys" show up and attack.

Proud Boys are attacking counter protesters, spraying pepper spray. I have been hit and sprayed. pic.twitter.com/JxzELa1ZEP

— Samuel J. Robinson (@samueljrob) August 15, 2020

 

Kalamazoo, Michigan pic.twitter.com/q2es6wUDqJ

— Samuel J. Robinson (@samueljrob) August 15, 2020

Apologize for the delay. Police arrived as Proud Boys retreated to a parking garage nearby the Raddison HotelI. I was arrested and charged with impeding traffic while reporting live on Facebook for @MLive. pic.twitter.com/KcGL7v2crg

— Samuel J. Robinson (@samueljrob) August 15, 2020

[SunsetBengal]

(08-15-2020, 06:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: Peaceful protest...then the "Proud Boys" show up and attack.

Proud Boys are attacking counter protesters, spraying pepper spray. I have been hit and sprayed. pic.twitter.com/JxzELa1ZEP

— Samuel J. Robinson (@samueljrob) August 15, 2020

 

Kalamazoo, Michigan pic.twitter.com/q2es6wUDqJ

— Samuel J. Robinson (@samueljrob) August 15, 2020

Apologize for the delay. Police arrived as Proud Boys retreated to a parking garage nearby the Raddison HotelI. I was arrested and charged with impeding traffic while reporting live on Facebook for @MLive. pic.twitter.com/KcGL7v2crg

— Samuel J. Robinson (@samueljrob) August 15, 2020

Hmm, looks like your "reporting" might be a little suspect.  Appeared to me that the proud boys were merely defending themselves, upon being attacked.  Did you actually watch those videos?

[*jason*]

(08-15-2020, 07:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, looks like your "reporting" might be a little suspect.  Appeared to me that the proud boys were merely defending themselves, upon being attacked.  Did you actually watch those videos?

I just see 2 groups of people that need to find more productive things to do with their Saturdays...

[*Nately120*]

I'll just wait until the dust settles and join the winning side. I don't need to be on the wrong side of another Bengals/Steelers rivalry again.