More "largely peaceful" Portland protests

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 02:34 AM)Von Cichlid Wrote: I don't know what this is driven by and I don't think there is a way to get an answer either, you would have to interview everyone and get a sample, and who knows how stable these people are from day to day anyway.  I have known people (when I was much younger) who have flipped from extreme right to extreme left.  More than anything, I think they just liked action and excitement and needed to be a part of something.

The only thing I do know is that this is happening in Portland, Oregon of all possible places.  This is a place that you don't think of when it comes to an excessive police presence.  They don't have a substantial Black population either.  

I could understand this happening in NYC, Chicago, LA, Detroit, and Minneapolis.  But not Portland.

That leaves the question then:  Why has Portland (and Seattle to a lesser extent) become the epicenter of this?  

Here is my best guess, and I will say this is pure speculation on my part:

In the bigger cities I mentioned, I think the police departments are very large and well equipped due to the longtime presence of gangs.

I don't think of Portland as a city that is well equipped to deal with large waves of crime.  I always thought of it as a peace and love kind of liberal utopia.  I may be completely wrong here, that is just the image I always had.

Now, after George Floyd, there was a "defund the police" movement that instantly swept across the nation.  Protests to riots broke out in every big city.  After some time, they seemed to subside in the larger cities with the larger Black populations.  However, in Portland they still take place.

The situation in Portland continues because they have a softer PD that is not used to dealing with sustained chaos like they are seeing now.  Combine that with leftist leadership who seemingly enabled this at the beginning, and it is probably considered a "soft target" by people wanting to demonstrate in unlawful ways.  

Classes on college campuses aren't driving this directly I would say.  Online websites, organizing, and opportunists due to the "soft target" nature of Portland are probably the main factors.

The reason I lumped college campuses into the equation is that antifa has had a history of gathering and causing some turmoil at what are considered liberal universities.  This leads me to believe they felt comfortable in doing their thing at those places because of the fact that they perceived their views as supported in those locations.  As antifa is involved in Portland too, college classes and what is going on in Portland were linked in my mind, perhaps erroneously.    

Don't want to make generalizations.  Oh, wait, I don't give a shit.  IT"S COMING FROM THE GAMING COMMUNITY.  These dorks can't get laid, much like their radical counterparts in the Middle East.  This leads to them spending most of their time with other dorks online playing games.  These dorks are anonymous, so they can say anything they want to each other.  Somewhere along the timeline, racism and authoritarian themes took hold, and these ball-ess little ******** started crawling out of the woodwork.  They are the dudes that couldn't win a fight with a teenager (George Zimmerman).  This leads them to arm themselves, grow hipster beards, and fly the snake flag to intimidate people by gathering en-masse.  They are all little bitches at their cores.

Oh, you meant the left wing ones? Yeah, they're not a lot different, just more likely coming from social media.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2020, 04:02 PM)samhain Wrote: Don't want to make generalizations.  Oh, wait, I don't give a shit.  IT"S COMING FROM THE GAMING COMMUNITY.  These dorks can't get laid, much like their radical counterparts in the Middle East.  This leads to them spending most of their time with other dorks online playing games.  These dorks are anonymous, so they can say anything they want to each other.  Somewhere along the timeline, racism and authoritarian themes took hold, and these ball=less little ******** started crawling out of the woodwork.  They are the dudes that couldn't win a fight with a teenager (George Zimmerman).  This leads them to arm themselves, grow hipster beards, and fly the snake flag to intimidate people by gathering en-masse.  They are all little bitches at their cores.

Oh, you meant the left wing ones?  Yeah, they're not a lot different, just more likely coming from social media.

Damn, this is an angry post.  Is this Joe Rogan? 

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 05:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Damn, this is an angry post.  Is this Joe Rogan? 

LOL.  You got me.  

Honest question though, as I've been curious for awhile.  I'm not going to jump on you either, because it matters not.  Reading some of your posts, such as the one where you got riled about Nazi-punching, the ones where you deny white nationalist violence being a problem (and school shootings, but not relevant here), and the ones where you continue to highlight left wing violence and downplay any sort of issues on the extreme right, I just have to ask: do you identify as a white nationalist? If the answer is yes, I swear I will not respond in any way.  You just seem really, uh, OK with the Proud Boys and such.  Maybe white nationalist isn't the term.   Alt-right maybe?

Not being a smartass.  I just notice a tendency and have wondered.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2020, 06:49 PM)samhain Wrote: LOL.  You got me.  

Honest question though, as I've been curious for awhile.  I'm not going to jump on you either, because it matters not.  Reading some of your posts, such as the one where you got riled about Nazi-punching,

I don;t think violence is ever a reasonable reaction to speech.

Quote:the ones where you deny white nationalist violence being a problem (and school shootings, but not relevant here),

I've never said they weren't a problem.  I've said they aren't the problem they are frequently purported to be.

Quote:and the ones where you continue to highlight left wing violence and downplay any sort of issues on the extreme right,

There are plenty of posters here who will highlight any such right wing issues.  There aren't many who will do the same with the left.  Your perception is driven by my desire to be equal, not by my political bent.

Quote:I just have to ask: do you identify as a white nationalist? If the answer is yes, I swear I will not respond in any way.

Not even a little

Quote: You just seem really, uh, OK with the Proud Boys and such.  Maybe white nationalist isn't the term.   Alt-right maybe?

Nope, I'm just about fair treatment.  You can't vilify people marching while condoning people throwing rocks and explosives.  Well, you can't logically do so.

Quote:Not being a smartass.  I just notice a tendency and have wondered.

I'm sure, which is an indication of how far we've fallen that someone striving to be fair and middle of the road is perceived as such.

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 05:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Damn, this is an angry post.  Is this Joe Rogan? 

Hype, aside, I think it's largely true.  People involved in any of these movements seem lost in a lot of ways.  What person in their right mind wanted to be a radical protester or right-wing terrorist when they grew up.  How many young people really have that strong of an interest in any kind of politics?  Radical right/left groups have been common in Europe for years, but only recently here.  Why?  I think gaming and social media are huge factors, as well as less general direction in terms of career or the type of life they desire to live as an adult.  Gaming is a plague, IMO, with social media not far behind.  It detracts from real social interaction and effects a person's view of other people.

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 07:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don;t think violence is ever a reasonable reaction to speech.



I've never said they weren't a problem.  I've said they aren't the problem they are frequently purported to be.



There are plenty of posters here who will highlight any such right wing issues.  There aren't many who will do the same with the left.  Your perception is driven by my desire to be equal, not by my political bent.



Not even a little



Nope, I'm just about fair treatment.  You can't vilify people marching while condoning people throwing rocks and explosives.  Well, you can't logically do so.


I'm sure, which is an indication of how far we've fallen that someone striving to be fair and middle of the road is perceived as such.

I take you at your word, if that's the case.  My view is that the Proud Boys deserve what they get, much like your view that left-wing protesters got what they deserved when the feds showed up in Portland.  It's fairly well known that the PBs show up in places to provoke the opposition.  Their entire code is based on literal fighting, as their ranks are established by it.  They may say they are there to protest peacefully, but I have trouble believing that.  The leftists are the dumb sibling that knows mom and dad are going to bust their ass when they get caught hitting their annoying brother for staring at them or putting gum in their hair, but do it anyway reflexively.  It's not justifiable, but the Proud Boys knew precisely what they were doing.  It's the reason they exist.

And for the record, I am not in favor of the left-wing violence, regardless of what the right does. I think it's time for them to go home and has been for awhile. They have damaged much of the legitimacy that the original protests may have had. I say this sincerely, because I think that in the beginning there was a chance for an honest discussion, maybe even a productive one, to be had. Then there wasn't.

Perhaps it's my view from the left that skews things, but I just can't get my mind around people with White nationalist or alt-right views. These were the people I thought we were supposed to loathe as Americans. We've been shown this by our elders for our entire lives, then here they are again. I suppose My judgement comes from the idea that dismissing it's potential danger will just give it more time to cultivate and establish. I personally think it needs to be taken more seriously before it spreads even more widely.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2020, 07:14 PM)samhain Wrote: I take you at your word, if that's the case.  My view is that the Proud Boys deserve what they get, much like your view that left-wing protesters got what they deserved when the feds showed up in Portland.  It's fairly well known that the PBs show up in places to provoke the opposition.  Their entire code is based on literal fighting, as their ranks are established by it.  They may say they are there to protest peacefully, but I have trouble believing that.  The leftists are the dumb sibling that knows mom and dad are going to bust their ass when they get caught hitting their annoying brother for staring at them or putting gum in their hair, but do it anyway reflexively.  It's not justifiable, but the Proud Boys knew precisely what they were doing.  It's the reason they exist.

I don't like provocation, but it's a far cry from the actual attack.  As we're discussing adults, you can be provoked all day, which is legal, but the minute you respond with violence you're in the wrong.  To be clear, there is a difference to being provoked in a situation in which you can voluntarily leave and one in which you can not.  There is a limit for every person, but if you're choosing to put yourself in a position to be provoked, when you could choose to just leave, I have little sympathy for you when you "snap".

[Von Cichlid]

(08-16-2020, 04:02 PM)samhain Wrote: Don't want to make generalizations.  Oh, wait, I don't give a shit.  IT"S COMING FROM THE GAMING COMMUNITY.  These dorks can't get laid, much like their radical counterparts in the Middle East.  This leads to them spending most of their time with other dorks online playing games.  These dorks are anonymous, so they can say anything they want to each other.  Somewhere along the timeline, racism and authoritarian themes took hold, and these ball=less little ******** started crawling out of the woodwork.  They are the dudes that couldn't win a fight with a teenager (George Zimmerman).  This leads them to arm themselves, grow hipster beards, and fly the snake flag to intimidate people by gathering en-masse.  They are all little bitches at their cores.

Oh, you meant the left wing ones?  Yeah, they're not a lot different, just more likely coming from social media.

Check the following article:  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2019/03/21/its-not-just-you-new-data-shows-more-than-half-young-people-america-dont-have-romantic-partner/

Young people just don't get any anymore.  I don't know if they are too risk averse, can't handle rejection, or what. Maybe the young guys are scared of trying to pick up women, so they take it out on small business owners.  I don't know.  

When I came of age in the 90's, this was all we cared about as teenagers.  "Where is the party, whose getting the beer and weed, and whose going to invite the chicks?"  We didn't give a sh1t about social justice or climate change.  

I am glad I am 41 right now instead of 14, that's for sure. 
   

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

For those who were in P&R this long ago, you'll recall that I did not excuse Chris Henry's assault of someone because the allegedly used the N word. Words don't justify a physical response. They can certainly provoke one, but that's the choice of the person making it physical and it doesn't justify it.

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 07:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't like provocation, but it's a far cry from the actual attack.  As we're discussing adults, you can be provoked all day, which is legal, but the minute you respond with violence you're in the wrong.  To be clear, there is a difference to being provoked in a situation in which you can voluntarily leave and one in which you can not.  There is a limit for every person, but if you're choosing to put yourself in a position to be provoked, when you could choose to just leave, I have little sympathy for you when you "snap".

Legally true, but these people know and expect the reaction they're going to get, and it went exactly as they planned.  It's probably not a stretch to believe that they would have gone even further should the opposition have kept their composure.  They aren't any better than the leftists they were fighting, but yes, they are likely absolved from a legal perspective.

[*jason*]

(08-16-2020, 07:21 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Check the following article:  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2019/03/21/its-not-just-you-new-data-shows-more-than-half-young-people-america-dont-have-romantic-partner/

Young people just don't get any anymore.  I don't know if they are too risk averse, can't handle rejection, or what. Maybe the young guys are scared of trying to pick up women, so they take it out on small business owners.  I don't know.  

When I came of age in the 90's, this was all we cared about as teenagers.  "Where is the party, whose getting the beer and weed, and whose going to invite the chicks?"  We didn't give a sh1t about social justice or climate change.  

I am glad I am 41 right now instead of 14, that's for sure. 
   

It's not just young people though... We're more interconnected than we've ever been, but a large portion of Americans struggle with loneliness, and even feelings of isolation... It's probably amplified over the last 6 months or so.

I read a book back in college called In the Absence of the Sacred. It was written by a guy called Jerry Mander... Interesting name. Anyway; the book was a great read. I'd like to read it again with hindsight, but it basically covers the ills of technology on human kind.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2020, 07:27 PM)samhain Wrote: Legally true, but these people know and expect the reaction they're going to get, and it went exactly as they planned.  It's probably not a stretch to believe that they would have gone even further should the opposition have kept their composure.  They aren't any better than the leftists they were fighting, but yes, they are likely absolved from a legal perspective.

You do realize this exact argument pretty much absolves any response by law enforcement to aggressive protest?  I'm sure that was unintended.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-16-2020, 07:32 PM)jason Wrote: It's not just young people though... We're more interconnected than we've ever been, but a large portion of Americans struggle with loneliness, and even feelings of isolation... It's probably amplified over the last 6 months or so.

I read a book back in college called In the Absence of the Sacred. It was written by a guy called Jerry Mander... Interesting name. Anyway; the book was a great read. I'd like to read it again with hindsight, but it basically covers the ills of technology on human kind.

I think people these days are extremely concerned with their "profile" or "public persona."  Much time is spent making sure they check off all the necessary boxes that they need to for acceptance by the public.

As a consequence, less time is spent developing meaningful relationships in isolated settings.  People have traded a few really good friends for 1000 acquaintances (and I use that in the lightest possible sense) on social media.  That is probably the source of the loneliness. 

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 07:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You do realize this exact argument pretty much absolves any response by law enforcement to aggressive protest?  I'm sure that was unintended.

Violent protest warrants response.  I never said it didn't.  Any is the word that breaks the deal for me.  Appropriate perhaps?  Any response elected and the legal response are not the same.

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 07:21 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Check the following article:  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2019/03/21/its-not-just-you-new-data-shows-more-than-half-young-people-america-dont-have-romantic-partner/

Young people just don't get any anymore.  I don't know if they are too risk averse, can't handle rejection, or what. Maybe the young guys are scared of trying to pick up women, so they take it out on small business owners.  I don't know.  

When I came of age in the 90's, this was all we cared about as teenagers.  "Where is the party, whose getting the beer and weed, and whose going to invite the chicks?"  We didn't give a sh1t about social justice or climate change.  

I am glad I am 41 right now instead of 14, that's for sure. 
   

I grew up in and around whatever excuse there was for a punk rock scene in the Greater Cincinnati area.  We went to shows, clubs, and parties where we'd run into truly radical (or so they believed) characters.  Most of us were pretty left-wing people, but the people I'm talking about just had a different air about themselves.  They were extremely judgy and militant about their sense of what was acceptable in the "scene" or in political discourse.  They were, at times violent, and the potential was always there.  Here's the thing though: even in that environment, these people stood out as being a little or a lot "off".  Just something in their eyes and the way they carried themselves.  One of them got on me for something dumb, like eating meat or wearing the wrong shoes outside a club once, and my response to his disdain was to tell him that if I wanted a book of strict rules to follow, I'd have joined an evangelical youth group.  He didn't like that much.

The people I talk about here are the same ones I imagine are out in the streets.  Misguided, lost, no direction.  Not even able to allow themselves to have fun.  Their cause/politics are their identity because it's all they see themselves as.

[Belsnickel]

(08-16-2020, 07:21 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Check the following article:  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2019/03/21/its-not-just-you-new-data-shows-more-than-half-young-people-america-dont-have-romantic-partner/

Young people just don't get any anymore.  I don't know if they are too risk averse, can't handle rejection, or what. Maybe the young guys are scared of trying to pick up women, so they take it out on small business owners.  I don't know.  

When I came of age in the 90's, this was all we cared about as teenagers.  "Where is the party, whose getting the beer and weed, and whose going to invite the chicks?"  We didn't give a sh1t about social justice or climate change.  

I am glad I am 41 right now instead of 14, that's for sure. 
   

(08-16-2020, 08:23 PM)samhain Wrote: I grew up in and around whatever excuse there was for a punk rock scene in the Greater Cincinnati area.  We went to shows, clubs, and parties where we'd run into truly radical (or so they believed) characters.  Most of us were pretty left-wing people, but the people I'm talking about just had a different air about themselves.  They were extremely judgy and militant about their sense of what was acceptable in the "scene" or in political discourse.  They were, at times violent, and the potential was always there.  Here's the thing though: even in that environment, these people stood out as being a little or a lot "off".  Just something in their eyes and the way they carried themselves.  One of them got on me for something dumb, like eating meat or wearing the wrong shoes outside a club once, and my response to his disdain was to tell him that if I wanted a book of strict rules to follow, I'd have joined an evangelical youth group.  He didn't like that much.

The people I talk about here are the same ones I imagine are out in the streets.  Misguided, lost, no direction.  Not even able to allow themselves to have fun.  Their cause/politics are their identity because it's all they see themselves as.

So, this was a fun response for me to read because I was a punk rock kid in the late-nineties through the aughts. I came of age during this era and we cared a lot about where the weed, beer, and chicks were. It's always funny for me to think back to this time because I was an Eagle Scout, a gamer nerd, and a punk rock kid all in one package. But on top of all of that I was an activist, even back then.

Punk is protest music. Living the punk rock life is a protest in itself. We cared about social justice, we cared about climate change, we cared about unjust wars. Fat Mike put out the Rock Against Bush tours for a reason. When every generation comes of age there are cultures within it that care about these things. What we're seeing now is more about a greater societal shift, but rest assured that the youth in the nineties were out there caring about this stuff while getting high as shit and ***** their partners.

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 08:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, this was a fun response for me to read because I was a punk rock kid in the late-nineties through the aughts. I came of age during this era and we cared a lot about where the weed, beer, and chicks were. It's always funny for me to think back to this time because I was an Eagle Scout, a gamer nerd, and a punk rock kid all in one package. But on top of all of that I was an activist, even back then.

Punk is protest music. Living the punk rock life is a protest in itself. We cared about social justice, we cared about climate change, we cared about unjust wars. Fat Mike put out the Rock Against Bush tours for a reason. When every generation comes of age there are cultures within it that care about these things. What we're seeing now is more about a greater societal shift, but rest assured that the youth in the nineties were out there caring about this stuff while getting high as shit and ***** their partners.

True, but I found that people define living the life very differently on an individual basis, which is how it should be IMO.  I remember one of my best friends being in an area band that was around for a long time and somewhat known locally.  Not anything great, but he was my friend, so I was at most of their shows.  Dude worked his ass off and is one of the most DIY human beings I've ever known.  He came from not a lot money-wise, and managed to get a really high-paying job in internet security for a big company while he was still fronting his band.  Someone then took it upon themselves to write an article in some local fanzine about how he was an evil capitalist or some such shit, and proceeded to tell people not to got to his shows or buy his music.  This dude was more punk rock than any of those little rich-kid hypocrites.  Half of them didn't need to find jobs like he did because they were still getting money from mom and dad.  Zealots are often the least self-aware of people.

I even recall being lectured about how evil it was to wear Nikes due to their labor practices overseas. Now Nike is one of the biggest proponents of the current social justice movement, lol.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-16-2020, 08:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, this was a fun response for me to read because I was a punk rock kid in the late-nineties through the aughts. I came of age during this era and we cared a lot about where the weed, beer, and chicks were. It's always funny for me to think back to this time because I was an Eagle Scout, a gamer nerd, and a punk rock kid all in one package. But on top of all of that I was an activist, even back then.

Punk is protest music. Living the punk rock life is a protest in itself. We cared about social justice, we cared about climate change, we cared about unjust wars. Fat Mike put out the Rock Against Bush tours for a reason. When every generation comes of age there are cultures within it that care about these things. What we're seeing now is more about a greater societal shift, but rest assured that the youth in the nineties were out there caring about this stuff while getting high as shit and ***** their partners.

If you cared about unjust wars, I'd wager you were a late teen in the early 2000's?  I looked it up and the "Rock Against Bush Tour" was in 2004.

The social climate in the USA was vastly different in the mid to late 90's versus the mid 2000's. 
 
The only mainstream really political band that was popular at that time that I can remember was Rage Against the Machine.  By 2004 every mainstream band was political to some degree.  

I graduated high school in 1997, and it was a fairly large one with 2000 people or so.  The demographics consisted of jocks, stoners, ganstas (Tupac vs. Biggie was huge at the time), some metal heads, and grits is what we called the country music people.  There was not much of a punk scene that I can remember.  I mean, a few kids wore Misfits and Dead Kennedy's shirts but that was about it.

Nobody cared about unjust wars because there was no unjust wars at that time.  From 1992 until 9/11, the US was a complacent nation in large part.  OJ Simpson and Monica Lewinsky were the biggest things to come out of that 8 year stretch.  The mid to late 90's was pre-internet and people just did not think in the same "global" way that they do now.  People lived in their little bubbles when you compare to the way we live in the information age.

That complacency is what allowed 9/11 to happen largely, and we have not been the same world since.

By the time the invasion of Iraq happened I was already out of the Army and by that point my views were pretty conservative.  Maybe there were not many leftist view points in the military for me to learn from.  I don't even think I learned what left and right politics were until I went to college in 2002.  That's how off the radar that stuff was to people my age and in my area at the time.

Had I had grown up in a different region and in a different time things probably would have been different.



    

[samhain]

(08-16-2020, 10:07 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: If you cared about unjust wars, I'd wager you were a late teen in the early 2000's?  I looked it up and the "Rock Against Bush Tour" was in 2004.

The social climate in the USA was vastly different in the mid to late 90's versus the mid 2000's. 
 
The only mainstream really political band that was popular at that time that I can remember was Rage Against the Machine.  By 2004 every mainstream band was political to some degree.  

I graduated high school in 1997, and it was a fairly large one with 2000 people or so.  The demographics consisted of jocks, stoners, ganstas (Tupac vs. Biggie was huge at the time), some metal heads, and grits is what we called the country music people.  There was not much of a punk scene that I can remember.  I mean, a few kids wore Misfits and Dead Kennedy's shirts but that was about it.

Nobody cared about unjust wars because there was no unjust wars at that time.  From 1992 until 9/11, the US was a complacent nation in large part.  OJ Simpson and Monica Lewinsky were the biggest things to come out of that 8 year stretch.  The mid to late 90's was pre-internet and people just did not think in the same "global" way that they do now.  People lived in their little bubbles when you compare to the way we live in the information age.

That complacency is what allowed 9/11 to happen largely, and we have not been the same world since.

By the time the invasion of Iraq happened I was already out of the Army and by that point my views were pretty conservative.  Maybe there were not many leftist view points in the military for me to learn from.  I don't even think I learned what left and right politics were until I went to college in 2002.  That's how off the radar that stuff was to people my age and in my area at the time.

Had I had grown up in a different region and in a different time things probably would have been different.



    

I graduated high school in 95.  You really had to stretch to find causes to get riled up about back then.  A lot of far left types got upset about some of the things Clinton did, but it wasn't really a consistent thing.  The mid 90s was a pretty great time looking back.  People could get decent jobs, the economy was good, 9-11 hadn't happened, and politics were not yet to the divisive point they've arrived at now.  The closest thing to rioting you'd see were the WTO protests, which were usually pretty brief and it's participants were of the extreme anarchist variety.  

Cincinnati went through a pretty rough period after the cops killed Timothy Thomas in 2001.  He was a 19 year old that got shot in the back while running away.  Violence in the streets surged and businesses vacated downtown for a decade.  Hardly anyone went there to drink or hang out anymore.  Covington and Newport (Kentucky) gained a lot of bar business.  It took a long time and a lot of investment to get it to where it is now.

[Belsnickel]

(08-16-2020, 10:07 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: If you cared about unjust wars, I'd wager you were a late teen in the early 2000's?  I looked it up and the "Rock Against Bush Tour" was in 2004.

The social climate in the USA was vastly different in the mid to late 90's versus the mid 2000's. 
 
The only mainstream really political band that was popular at that time that I can remember was Rage Against the Machine.  By 2004 every mainstream band was political to some degree.  

I graduated high school in 1997, and it was a fairly large one with 2000 people or so.  The demographics consisted of jocks, stoners, ganstas (Tupac vs. Biggie was huge at the time), some metal heads, and grits is what we called the country music people.  There was not much of a punk scene that I can remember.  I mean, a few kids wore Misfits and Dead Kennedy's shirts but that was about it.

Nobody cared about unjust wars because there was no unjust wars at that time.  From 1992 until 9/11, the US was a complacent nation in large part.  OJ Simpson and Monica Lewinsky were the biggest things to come out of that 8 year stretch.  The mid to late 90's was pre-internet and people just did not think in the same "global" way that they do now.  People lived in their little bubbles when you compare to the way we live in the information age.

That complacency is what allowed 9/11 to happen largely, and we have not been the same world since.

By the time the invasion of Iraq happened I was already out of the Army and by that point my views were pretty conservative.  Maybe there were not many leftist view points in the military for me to learn from.  I don't even think I learned what left and right politics were until I went to college in 2002.  That's how off the radar that stuff was to people my age and in my area at the time.

Had I had grown up in a different region and in a different time things probably would have been different.



    

(08-16-2020, 10:53 PM)samhain Wrote: I graduated high school in 95.  You really had to stretch to find causes to get riled up about back then.  A lot of far left types got upset about some of the things Clinton did, but it wasn't really a consistent thing.  The mid 90s was a pretty great time looking back.  People could get decent jobs, the economy was good, 9-11 hadn't happened, and politics were not yet to the divisive point they've arrived at now.  The closest thing to rioting you'd see were the WTO protests, which were usually pretty brief and it's participants were of the extreme anarchist variety.  

Cincinnati went through a pretty rough period after the cops killed Timothy Thomas in 2001.  He was a 19 year old that got shot in the back while running away.  Violence in the streets surged and businesses vacated downtown for a decade.  Hardly anyone went there to drink or hang out anymore.  Covington and Newport (Kentucky) gained a lot of bar business.  It took a long time and a lot of investment to get it to where it is now.

Yeah, there was a lot more going on than y'all realized. I was talking with my sister, born in 1975, graduated high school in '93 and college in '96, and discussing this conversation. My sister was also an activist during her youth for things like social justice, unjust wars (did you know we've only had something like 21 years without armed conflict in the entirety of this nation's history?), etc. This stuff was going on, it's just a higher percentage of people are plugged into it these days than they were before the internet became such a commonplace tool.