Now, the truth starts to emerge from some of the veterans..

[SunsetBengal]

To think that American forces were told to "look the other way". I believe that I am beginning to understand what bfine means when he has seen what is behind the curtain, so to speak. And, all of you that claim that we have no business over there, meddling in affairs that have went on forever.. Can it. You seem to vote liberal when it comes to here at home, but what about children that have it so bad everywhere else??

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

[GMDino]

(09-21-2015, 07:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To think that American forces were told to "look the other way".  I believe that I am beginning to understand what bfine means when he has seen what is behind the curtain, so to speak.  And, all of you that claim that we have no business over there, meddling in affairs that have went on forever..  Can it.  You seem to vote liberal when it comes to here at home, but what about children that have it so bad everywhere else??

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

We discussed this on FB the other day.  Wife of a soldier said there's much worse than that going on and the military is treating it as not interfering with another "culture" vs forcing "our ways" on them.

I think its sick and we should pull every bit of help away from every country in the middle east.

But that's not a popular opinion.  

[KingPoster]

It is quite the enigma. On one hand we should not interfere in other country's cultures, but on the other hand we should accept their citizens as illegal immigrants because of their country's culture.

[Benton]

Stories like that affirm the belief we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Nothing to can there.

Our place is not to make the world right by force. All that will do is what it's done for more than a decade — wear down our resolve and our ability to fight and to make a difference.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-21-2015, 11:58 PM)Benton Wrote: Stories like that affirm the belief we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Nothing to can there.

Our place is not to make the world right by force. All that will do is what it's done for more than a decade — wear down our resolve and our ability to fight and to make a difference.

This has been known for years. Shouldn't have been there in the first place. Replacing ignorant evil ***** with more of the same.

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2015, 11:58 PM)Benton Wrote: Stories like that affirm the belief we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Nothing to can there.

Our place is not to make the world right by force. All that will do is what it's done for more than a decade — wear down our resolve and our ability to fight and to make a difference.

This seems like a "their country, their problem" mentality. Do you think other countries should accept their immigrants? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2015, 07:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To think that American forces were told to "look the other way".  I believe that I am beginning to understand what bfine means when he has seen what is behind the curtain, so to speak.  And, all of you that claim that we have no business over there, meddling in affairs that have went on forever..  Can it.  You seem to vote liberal when it comes to here at home, but what about children that have it so bad everywhere else??

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

I brought this subject up, "Chai boys", on the old board.  Sadly it was almost entirely ignored.  A friend of mine informed me of the abuse of these chai boys by Afghan police while they were on patrol.  They would get these kids high on heroin and then abuse them all night.  Aside from the horrific abuse of these children it gave the impression to many Afghani citizens that the US advocated or tolerated such child rape.  The Pashtun pastime of raping boys was outlawed by the Taliban, therefore it's return once they were overthrown, by those opposing our "ultimate" enemies, is seen by many in the country as an approval of pedophilia by the United States.  When my friend informed me of this I googled the term chai boy and found an article that quoted an Afghani police official stating the following; 

Quote:“If they don’t f–k the asses of those boys, what should they f–k?” he asks at one point. “The p—–s of their own grandmothers? Their asses were used before, and now they want to get what they are owed.”

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/2013/07/10/routine-child-rape-by-afghan-police/

The misogynistic view of this region, propagated by Islamic monotheism, is that women's vaginas are dirty things fit only for procreation.  The common term being that, "women are for children and boys are for pleasure."  Sadly, Sunset, this is not new, only new to those who tried to hide it until now.  The truth has been available to those who cared to look for over a decade.  The fact that this is only now gaining traction tells us more than we'd probably like to admit. 

[Benton]

(09-22-2015, 12:23 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This seems like a "their country, their problem" mentality. Do you think other countries should accept their immigrants? 

It is. Could we force every country in the world to follow our example? Probably not. But even if we could, the question is should we? 

That's a resounding no. We are a great country, but we aren't perfect. We tout our freedoms, but at the same time we laud those who deny basic rights and services as moral heroes. We celebrate the divisive and scorn those who work for unity. We ignore and ostracize those who try to change a system that rewards failure instead of offering a legitimate chance to succeed.

We aren't perfect. We should not seek to enforce that on others until we have improved ourselves.

As far as the immigrant question, I can't say what other countries should do. But ours should. 

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:42 AM)Benton Wrote: It is. Could we force every country in the world to follow our example? Probably not. But even if we could, the question is should we? 

That's a resounding no. We are a great country, but we aren't perfect. We tout our freedoms, but at the same time we laud those who deny basic rights and services as moral heroes. We celebrate the divisive and scorn those who work for unity. We ignore and ostracize those who try to change a system that rewards failure instead of offering a legitimate chance to succeed.

We aren't perfect. We should not seek to enforce that on others until we have improved ourselves.

As far as the immigrant question, I can't say what other countries should do. But ours should. 

So you think we should only try to make live better for those that make it to our country?

I must admit, I have no idea what the majority of your post had to do with the question at hand. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2015, 12:23 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This seems like a "their country, their problem" mentality. Do you think other countries should accept their immigrants? 

That's a good question that probably deserves its own thread. 

I don't think any country involved in the matters of another should be required to accept immigrants from the latter country. Can immigration benefit a country? Yea, but they're under no obligation to accept immigrants.

[BmorePat87]

(09-21-2015, 07:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To think that American forces were told to "look the other way".  I believe that I am beginning to understand what bfine means when he has seen what is behind the curtain, so to speak.  And, all of you that claim that we have no business over there, meddling in affairs that have went on forever..  Can it.  You seem to vote liberal when it comes to here at home, but what about children that have it so bad everywhere else??

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

Why not meddle in any country with issues? Why don't other countries invade us to deal with the fact that child sexual abuse happens in our country too? Are you advocating for that?

[Belsnickel]

So, correct me if I am wrong in my reading of this, but this is currently a problem because we put the kid ***** in power, right? So us being there is perpetuating the problem.

What right do we have to police the people of a sovereign nation? It's disgusting, and it's a human rights violation, but we are not, or should not, be the world's police force. I am for a smaller federal government and the idea that we should be handling these things around the world is contrary to that.

[Blutarsky]

(09-22-2015, 01:42 AM)Benton Wrote: That's a resounding no. We are a great country, but we aren't perfect. We tout our freedoms, but at the same time we laud those who deny basic rights and services as moral heroes. We celebrate the divisive and scorn those who work for unity. We ignore and ostracize those who try to change a system that rewards failure instead of offering a legitimate chance to succeed.

We aren't perfect. We should not seek to enforce that on others until we have improved ourselves.

 

Exactly because the faction that still insists on denying marriage to gays is no different from the faction that throws them from rooftops.
No we are not perfect and never will be. As humans we all have built in flaws and as long as there a humans the idealist (extreme leftist, same thing) quest for a utopia is futile.
America still remains as the closest thing to a utopia however, just ask the hordes trying to get in, legally or illegally.

(09-22-2015, 06:42 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Why not meddle in any country with issues? Why don't other countries invade us to deal with the fact that child sexual abuse happens in our country too? Are you advocating for that?

Yeah, I know, The Crusades.

That good old "we are as bad as they are" song and dance whenever a topic having to do with Muslims always rears its head. The fact that there are laws and penalties in place and strictly enforced to protect our children sets us head and shoulders above those savages. From the Amber Alert to laws against child porn, there isn't much an outsider could offer.

But that's not to say I favor sending our young men and women to die trying to "save" another country.

[Blutarsky]

(09-22-2015, 07:48 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, correct me if I am wrong in my reading of this, but this is currently a problem because we put the kid ***** in power, right? So us being there is perpetuating the problem.

OK, I'll correct you. The kid ***** were already there, long before we put the Afghans in power. That is simply part of the savagery that's always been the staple of that region.
We are not perpetuating the problem, we are witnessing it.

[BmorePat87]

(09-22-2015, 08:38 AM)Blutarsky Wrote: Yeah, I know, The Crusades.

That good old "we are as bad as they are" song and dance whenever a topic having to do with Muslims always rears its head. The fact that there are laws and penalties in place and strictly enforced to protect our children sets us head and shoulders above those savages. From the Amber Alert to laws against child porn, there isn't much an outsider could offer.

But that's not to say I favor sending our young men and women to die trying to "save" another country.

I didn't even say that. I'm just asking if we should get involved in every country with problems, and, if we should, does that justify other countries if they want to invade us for any problem they perceive us as having. 

Somehow you're invoking the Crusades...

[GMDino]

(09-22-2015, 08:45 AM)Blutarsky Wrote: OK, I'll correct you. The kid ***** were already there, long before we put the Afghans in power. That is simply part of the savagery that's always been the staple of that region.
We are not perpetuating the problem, we are witnessing it.

Anyway, You are correct that this is not new to the region.  Nor will it change while we are there or after we leave.


But the point remains that does our moral superiority end when another country thinks that what we do is wrong?  Can Russia invade us because we believe in SSM?  Or ISIS?


Messing with cultures...the country where they are practiced...is a very dangerous proposition.


On the other side of the coin we have military people sexually attacking their own members and lack of concern over that from the top brass.


I don't think its black and white but I also don't think I have a good answer for it either.

[Blutarsky]

(09-22-2015, 07:48 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: What right do we have to police the people of a sovereign nation? It's disgusting, and it's a human rights violation, but we are not, or should not, be the world's police force. I am for a smaller federal government and the idea that we should be handling these things around the world is contrary to that.

Perhaps the education you receive from watching this video will cause you to have a change of heart...from being disgusted to at least having understanding why America is the worlds policeman.

Have understanding first, then refute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=176KRhEAgUs

[Belsnickel]

(09-22-2015, 08:45 AM)Blutarsky Wrote: OK, I'll correct you. The kid ***** were already there, long before we put the Afghans in power. That is simply part of the savagery that's always been the staple of that region.
We are not perpetuating the problem, we are witnessing it.

I'm not saying it wasn't happening, I'm saying it wasn't as rampant until we kicked the Taliban out. Everything we've been shown about this says the Taliban had made this illegal and it was not as much the norm. Then we kicked the Taliban out and put people in power that are involved in this. So through our invasion and creation of a power vacuum that we then filled, we perpetuated the problem.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-21-2015, 11:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: We discussed this on FB the other day.  Wife of a soldier said there's much worse than that going on and the military is treating it as not interfering with another "culture" vs forcing "our ways" on them.

I think its sick and we should pull every bit of help away from every country in the middle east.

But that's not a popular opinion.  

We should pull the help away. And close immigration/student visas. That will force changes, several nations survive off of sending kids here on student visas

[Belsnickel]

(09-22-2015, 09:38 AM)Blutarsky Wrote: Perhaps the education you receive from watching this video will cause you to have a change of heart...from being disgusted to at least having understanding why America is the worlds policeman.

Have understanding first, then refute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=176KRhEAgUs

He didn't sway me. I've heard these arguments before and they don't justify anything to anyone who is not already on the hawkish neocon bandwagon.

Yes, ISIS came in after we left. What was keeping them at bay before we got there? The man we took out of power. The same man we backed decades ago, and then he turned around and invaded Kuwait, who we then had to protect. See where I'm going with this? Every example in the Middle East of things like this are a result of our meddling in the region. If we didn't meddle in the first place, we wouldn't have to step in to be the police of the region.

I get it, you're in favor of a large federal government with imperialistic tendencies. That's fine, you're entitled to that viewpoint. Doesn't mean I will ever think it is the right thing to do. For every foreign affairs expert saying what that guy is saying, there is one saying the opposite.

Of course, the other part of that I find funny is the people that want us to not be a part of the U.N., to get rid of it entirely, are the ones that complain it isn't a strong enough power. Well, here's an idea, if we are supposed to be such a large global influence, then why don't we try to actually help the U.N. along? Our hypocrisy with the U.N., in trying to tell other countries that they should follow these guidelines and then laughing in the face of the organization when it suits our needs is one of our largest foreign affairs failures.