Opinion: DeSantis 2024?

[basballguy]

(08-17-2022, 07:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Consumption based tax systems are inherently regressive meaning that the lower your income the higher proportion of your income is taxed, meaning that lower income people have a higher effective tax rate. How is that fair?

How is everyone paying the same tax rate NOT fair?  In all aspects of life, except taxes, we pay the same thing for goods and services.  If we can't afford those goods and services, then government funded programs come into play to bridge that gap.

We pay the same price for everything else in life. Why does it make sense that taxes be progressive? Hint: It doesn't.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-17-2022, 07:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Which is shorthand for "there is no one right answer as long as they are thinking critically based on the assignment." So that make my point.



Consumption based tax systems are inherently regressive meaning that the lower your income the higher proportion of your income is taxed, meaning that lower income people have a higher effective tax rate. How is that fair?

How is that not fair?  Wealthier people can afford goods and services that cost much more than the average worker, thus paying more sales tax on each transaction. The affluent purchase more expensive homes, vehicles, clothing, general products, etc.  It even goes to basic necessities like groceries and sundries.  Have you ever checked the difference in price for shopping at a Supermarket in a wealthy neighborhood versus in a low income area?  I have, and it's an eye opener.  Don't be so sure that a consumption based tax isn't the right way to go.  Sure, you may have to put different tax rates on some things like commodities such as fuel, but on general consumer products it will lean toward those with more money paying more tax.

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2022, 08:16 PM)basballguy Wrote: How is everyone paying the same tax rate NOT fair?  In all aspects of life, except taxes, we pay the same thing for goods and services.  If we can't afford those goods and services, then government funded programs come into play to bridge that gap.

We pay the same price for everything else in life.  Why does it make sense that taxes be progressive?  Hint:  It doesn't.

Do we all pay the same price for everything in life?  I'd argue the existence of compound interest says that we do not.  This sounds like a commie argument now, but it when you hear people blame Jews for stuff like this it takes on a more bi-partisan look.

[basballguy]

(08-17-2022, 08:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Do we all pay the same price for everything in life?  I'd argue the existence of compound interest says that we do not.  This sounds like a commie argument now, but it when you hear people blame Jews for stuff like this it takes on a more bi-partisan look.

Are you comparing someone borrowing money to pay for something versus someone paying for it with their own funds?  

I'm not sure how everyone paying the same 9.99 a month for Disney+ equates to communism.  :)

[basballguy]

(08-17-2022, 08:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: How is that not fair?  Wealthier people can afford goods and services that cost much more than the average worker, thus paying more sales tax on each transaction. The affluent purchase more expensive homes, vehicles, clothing, general products, etc.  It even goes to basic necessities like groceries and sundries.  Have you ever checked the difference in price for shopping at a Supermarket in a wealthy neighborhood versus in a low income area?  I have, and it's an eye opener.  Don't be so sure that a consumption based tax isn't the right way to go.  Sure, you may have to put different tax rates on some things like commodities such as fuel, but on general consumer products it will lean toward those with more money paying more tax.

Excellent point and an argument I've never made on this topic.  

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2022, 08:36 PM)basballguy Wrote: Are you comparing someone borrowing money to pay for something versus someone paying for it with their own funds?  

I'm not sure how everyone paying the same 9.99 a month for Disney+ equates to communism.  :)

Yes, I am.  Methinks this whole damned system is designed to keep blue collar folks from paying the same rate for something expensive that rich folks can pay in one fell swoop.  Add in that wealth is increasingly generational rather than earned and, well...I'm just saying you can argue that not everyone is paying the same price for things when you really get down to it.

If I have access to a million bucks my ol' man and/or I write a check for college and that's it.  If I don't have a million bucks I either pay for it and the mounting interest for decades or I join the army and become government property for years in order to hopefully live to accomplish the same ends.  That doesn't seem the same to me.

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2022, 08:16 PM)basballguy Wrote: How is everyone paying the same tax rate NOT fair?  In all aspects of life, except taxes, we pay the same thing for goods and services.  If we can't afford those goods and services, then government funded programs come into play to bridge that gap.

We pay the same price for everything else in life. Why does it make sense that taxes be progressive? Hint: It doesn't.

(08-17-2022, 08:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: How is that not fair?  Wealthier people can afford goods and services that cost much more than the average worker, thus paying more sales tax on each transaction. The affluent purchase more expensive homes, vehicles, clothing, general products, etc.  It even goes to basic necessities like groceries and sundries.  Have you ever checked the difference in price for shopping at a Supermarket in a wealthy neighborhood versus in a low income area?  I have, and it's an eye opener.  Don't be so sure that a consumption based tax isn't the right way to go.  Sure, you may have to put different tax rates on some things like commodities such as fuel, but on general consumer products it will lean toward those with more money paying more tax.

Consumption based taxes are always inherently regressive, not flat. The lower income you have, the more of you income you have to use for purchases in order to live. As your income goes up, the percentage of your income you must spend in order to survive will always decrease. They may spend more on luxuries, but it is always true that the higher your income the lower the percentage of your income will be spent because you do not have to. It's a known factor in tax policy. The higher your income the lower your effective tax rate in a consumption based system.

Sunset, haven't you told me your wife is an accountant? She can explain this to you. It's a fact of taxation.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-17-2022, 08:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote:
Yes, I am.  Methinks this whole damned system is designed to keep blue collar folks from paying the same rate for something expensive that rich folks can pay in one fell swoop.  Add in that wealth is increasingly generational rather than earned and, well...I'm just saying you can argue that not everyone is paying the same price for things when you really get down to it.

If I have access to a million bucks my ol' man and/or I write a check for college and that's it.  If I don't have a million bucks I either pay for it and the mounting interest for decades or I join the army and become government property for years in order to hopefully live to accomplish the same ends.  That doesn't seem the same to me.

What society in the history of organized civilization hasn't had a Bourgeoisie and a Proloteriat class, to some degree?  

[SunsetBengal]

(08-17-2022, 08:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Sunset, haven't you told me your wife is an accountant? She can explain this to you. It's a fact of taxation.

Ha, I wish!  If that were the case, I wouldn't need to hide money from her.  She's actually a Masters Educator turned Social Worker.  Logical things like balancing a budget have to meaning to her, that's why she didn't take the Administrative route with her Masters.

[Dill]

(08-17-2022, 09:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What society in the history of organized civilization hasn't had a Bourgeoisie and a Proloteriat class, to some degree?  

Bourgeois and Proletarian classes emerge in Western Europe only in the late Medieval period, when and where, for the first time in history, capitalism becomes the dominant mode of economic production. And they follow wherever capitalism displaces traditional economies, world wide.

If you want to include pre-14th century "civilizations" in your statement, then you'll need to swap out the terms "Bourgeosie" and "Proletariat" for other, less specific class markers, like  "rich" and "poor."

Rich and poor have always been with us, but that's no ground for an argument against fair taxes. Keeping our history in mind, that point generally appears when a dominant class argues against the re-distribution of wealth acquired through exploitation.

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2022, 09:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What society in the history of organized civilization hasn't had a Bourgeoisie and a Proloteriat class, to some degree?  

I'm just pointing out that stuff doesn't necessarily cost the same for everyone.  I'm not drawing any grand conclusions or making society-altering suggestions based upon it.

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2022, 09:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Ha, I wish!  If that were the case, I wouldn't need to hide money from her.  She's actually a Masters Educator turned Social Worker.  Logical things like balancing a budget have to meaning to her, that's why she didn't take the Administrative route with her Masters.

Why did I think accountant? I lose track of you all.

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2022, 09:24 PM)Dill Wrote: Bourgeois and Proletarian classes emerge in Western Europe only in the late Medieval period, when and where, for the first time in history, capitalism becomes the dominant mode of economic production. And they follow wherever capitalism displaces traditional economies, world wide.

If you want to include pre-14th century "civilizations" in your statement, then you'll need to swap out the terms "Bourgeosie" and "Proletariat" for other, less specific class markers, like  "rich" and "poor."

Rich and poor have always been with us, but that's no ground for an argument against fair taxes. Keeping our history in mind, that point generally appears when a dominant class argues against the re-distribution of wealth acquired through exploitation.

Correction, rich and poor have been with us since the the emergence of agricultural societies. We see this today in societies that are in the hunter-gatherer phase where there is a much more egalitarian structure than what exists one agriculture makes them rooted in one spot and changes the social dynamics.

But this is the P&R forum, not cultural anthropology, so I won't continue on.

[NATI BENGALS]

Well Alex Jones is now endorsing Desantis. Tells me all I need to know.

I’d vote for just about anybody before I voted for a person the “conspiracy theory everything is rigged only he can save us” crowd supports.

[GMDino]

He seems very stable.  

Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) escalates his ridiculous attacks on Dr. Fauci:

"Someone needs to grab that little elf and chuck him across the Potomac." pic.twitter.com/H7lf6OSkj6

— The Recount (@therecount) August 24, 2022

 

Also DeSantis is two inches taller than Fauci.

[GMDino]

I will say he is pushing the "right" buttons for a presidential run.

Taking America back to the "good old days" of the 1940's is about as gop as you can get.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/1947-florida-shut-popular-drag-club-state-resurrected-case-rcna40947

Quote:In 1947, Florida shut down a popular drag club. The state has resurrected that case to do it again.
[color=var(--article-dek--color)]Last month, Gov. Ron DeSantis filed a complaint against R House citing a 1947 state Supreme Court decision that shut down a popular female impersonator club.
[/color]

A drag performer at the Drag Brunch at R House Wynwood during Wynwood Pride on June 20, 2021 in Miami, Fla.Jason Koerner / Getty Images


[/url][url=https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=In%201947,%20Florida%20shut%20down%20a%20popular%20drag%20club.%20The%20state%20has%20resurrected%20that%20case%20to%20do%20it%20again.%20&via=nbcnews&url=https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/1947-florida-shut-popular-drag-club-state-resurrected-case-rcna40947&original_referer=https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/1947-florida-shut-popular-drag-club-state-resurrected-case-rcna40947]
Link copied


[*]SAVECreate your free profile or log in to save this article

Aug. 27, 2022, 6:00 AM EDT

[*]
[color=var(--article-body--byline--color)]By Jo Yurcaba
In March of 1947, a Florida court ordered the Ha Ha Club — a nightclub famous for its “female impersonators,” as they were called at the time — to close after declaring it a public nuisance. [/color]


The order came just a month after Frank Tuppen, a juvenile probation officer with political ambitions, filed a complaint against the venue. He argued that the club’s performers were “sexual perverts” who had embedded “in the minds of the youngsters” who lived in the area “things immoral” and were “breaking down their character.”

The owner of the club, Charles “Babe” Baker, appealed to the Florida Supreme Court, but in October 1947, it affirmed the lower court’s decision that the club was a public nuisance. “Men impersonating women” in performances that are “nasty, suggestive and indecent” injure the “manners and morals of the people,” the court ruled.
Andrea Kinig at the Ha Ha Club in New York City. Herb Breuer / NY Daily News via Getty Images


Last month, nearly 75 later, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, a Republican who is widely thought to be eyeing a 2024 presidential run, cited the case that shut down Ha Ha Club in a complaint against Miami restaurant R House over its drag performances. 
The 2022 complaint, filed by the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation, threatened to revoke R House’s liquor license, arguing that the establishment violated a state public nuisance law by becoming “manifestly injurious to the morals or manners of the people.”



Historians say the parallels between the R House and the Ha Ha Club complaints, and the fact that DeSantis’ administration cited a 75-year-old court decision, reveal how conservatives are resurfacing a decades-old moral panic about LGBTQ people to target ***** spaces. 


‘Seeding America with ***** consciousness’
Baker first opened the Ha Ha Club in April 1933 in New York City’s Midtown Manhattan neighborhood, where it became “Broadway’s favorite hangout spot,” said Michail Takach, who researched the Ha Ha Club for a book he co-authored, “A History of Milwaukee Drag: Seven Generations of Glamour.”


Later that year, Baker traveled south and opened the club in Hallandale, Florida, about 13 miles north of R House, which is in Miami’s Wynwood neighborhood. He opened the club toward the end of the so-called Pansy Craze, which was a time period when drag surged in popularity, particularly in cities, Takach said. 


Same-sex sexual relations were illegal at the time in most states, and cross-dressing was criminalized in many cities, though Miami never officially had an anti-cross-dressing law on the books. As a result, Takach said clubs like the Ha Ha Club catered primarily to seemingly straight, cisgender audiences, because drag drew attention and could be a liability to club owners.
Dozens of men dressed as women were locked up on charges of masquerading and indecent exposure at the National Variety Artists' Exotic Carnival and Ball held at the Manhattan Center in 1962. Bettmann Archive / Getty Images


However, Takach wrote in his book that female impersonator clubs offered gay and gender-nonconforming men that performed at these venues “a safe sanctuary where they could not only embrace their identities but make a name for themselves.”
In Baker’s court testimony, he described how he stood at the club’s door every night and greeted all of the guests. The club held three shows from 9 p.m. to 4 a.m., with more than 40 performers who sang, danced and told jokes, according to court documents.


Baker featured some of the most famous female impersonators, including Jackie Maye, whose wardrobe was estimated at the time to have been worth $50,000, Takach said, which would be worth over $1 million in today’s dollars.


His production was also a traveling show, called the Ha Ha Revue, which was inspired by the Jewel Box Revue, a famous touring company of female impersonators — and the first racially integrated drag revue in the country — that operated from 1937 to about 1960, according to Takach’s drag history book. 



The traveling version of the Ha Ha Club’s show and the Jewel Box Revue “really did a solid job of seeding America with ***** consciousness,” Takach said. “And you have to wonder how much of that played into the gay liberation era — how many children that went to these shows, how many adults that watched these shows, were later part of the gay liberation scene.” 



The shows brought ***** representation to many cities across the U.S. at a time when gay people were being criminalized and also at a time when drag had fallen “violently out of favor,” Takach said.


“They brought it back in a big way and created a mid-century drag craze in the 1950s that, in some ways, is a parallel and a rival to the RuPaul drag craze of this decade,” he said.




‘A home of perverts, queers, phonies’
On Feb. 2, 1947, after operating his club in Hallandale for 14 years, Baker tried to stop a fight between two customers at the club and called the police. Both he and a customer were arrested for assault and battery, though Baker was never charged, according to court documents.


Just three days later, on Feb. 5, Tuppen — who was running for sheriff of Broward County in an upcoming election — filed his complaint against the club. He claimed multiple men he had arrested for having same-sex sexual relations said they frequented the Ha Ha Club.



James Lathero, the lawyer for the state, asked Tuppen what the general reputation of the Ha Ha Club is, and Tuppen said, “General knowledge, it is nothing but a home of perverts, queers, phonies.” Tuppen’s complaint also alleged that the venue had contributed to “juvenile delinquency” in the county that was “injurious to the manners and morals of the people” residing there. 


Baker’s lawyers called more than half a dozen locals who testified that they enjoyed the club’s shows. Baker also testified that his cast had performed for a church and the Kiwanis Club and that it had raised money for the March of Dimes, a nonprofit organization that supports mothers and babies. He also denied that his club was associated with homosexuals and said there was no evidence of “crimes of perversion” at the club.


But the Broward County Circuit Court ultimately declared the Ha Ha Club a public nuisance and ordered  it to close in the spring of 1947. 



Baker appealed to the Florida Supreme Court, and one of his lawyer’s, Robert Lane, wrote in the appeal that there were no complaints against Baker’s club during its 14 years in business “until an aspirant for a political office decided to complain,” referring to Tuppen and his run for sheriff. 


Lane also argued that “there are different views as to what may injure the manners and morals of the public.”

[GMDino]

Trump-lite has the lying part down...

https://popular.info/p/desantis-promotes-vicious-smear-against

Quote:DeSantis promotes vicious smear against political rival

Judd Legum and Rebecca Crosby
Aug 31

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis ® on August 19, 2022 (Photo by Jeff Swensen/Getty Images)
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis ®, his campaign, and the Florida Republican Party have launched a coordinated attack on Karla Hernández, the Democratic nominee for Lieutenant Governor of Florida. They claim Hernández, as president of the United Teachers of Dade (UTD) union, "protected a sexual predator for years and accompanied him through numerous investigations into his sexual assaults of multiple students." This claim, Popular Information has learned, is false. 

The allegation against Hernández appears to have originated on Twitter from a notorious right-wing disinformation account, Libs of Tik Tok. News of Hernández's selection as the Democratic nominee for Lieutenant Governor, running on a ticket with Charlie Crist, was first reported on August 26 at 2:01 PM Eastern. At 8:36 PM, Libs of Tik Tok posted that Hernández was involved in a coverup "for a teacher who pled guilty to sexual assault of a student." The tweet claimed, "there were allegations against him for 12 YEARS & the union she was in charge of protected him."

Twitter avatar for @libsoftiktok
Libs of TikTok 
@libsoftiktok
Charlie Crist just picked Karla Mats as his running mate for Gov. 

She’s the president of a teacher’s union who covered up for a teacher who pled guilty to sexual assault of a student. There were allegations against him for 12 YEARS & the union she was in charge of protected him 
Image
Image
August 27th 2022

4,874 Retweets12,711 Likes
In a follow-up tweet, Libs of Tik Tok stressed that Hernández "protected a pedophile for 12 YEARS while he was working in a middle school." 

Libs of Tik Tok provided no substantiation for these claims. (A Miami Herald article the account linked to does not support the allegations.) And it's unclear where Libs of Tik Tok was getting its information. But the next day, the Florida Republican Party created a webpage attacking Hernández that contained similar allegations. 

As president of UTD, Karla Hernandez Mats protected a sexual predator for years and accompanied him through numerous investigations into his sexual assaults of multiple students at a Miami-Dade middle school. The rapist, Wendell Nibbs, was a high-ranking UTD member and strong supporter of Hernandez Mats. He pled guilty to child sexual assault and was sentenced to 8 years in prison in January 2020.

Wendell Nibbs, a former middle school teacher, was arrested in November 2017 and pled guilty to child sexual assault in January 2020. The allegations against Nibbs date back to 2004, and it is appalling that he was able to remain a teacher for so many years. 

But it is false that Hernández "protected" Nibbs or "accompanied him through numerous investigations." The known allegations against Nibbs span from May 2004 to May 2016. Hernández did not become president of UTD, which represents more than 28,000 educators, until May 2016. 

Investigations into teacher conduct can be civil or criminal. According to reports, the criminal investigation into Nibbs' conduct that resulted in his arrest began in mid-2015. When an investigation into a teacher is criminal, UTD does not play any role, a union spokesperson told Popular Information. UTD confirmed that, after Hernández became president in 2016, UTD had no involvement with the investigation into Nibbs.

Civil investigations are conducted by Miami-Dade Public Schools (MDPS) district. UTD cannot obstruct the investigation. UTD cannot determine whether a teacher should be hired or fired; that is a decision made by the school district. In civil investigations, at a teacher's request, a UTD staff member will accompany a teacher during a proceeding to ensure procedures are followed. A union spokesperson told Popular Information that Hernández never accompanied Nibbs to any proceeding or had any other role whatsoever in MDPS' civil investigations of Nibbs. 

Prior to the criminal investigation that began in 2015, all the allegations of sexual misconduct were determined by police or school administrators to be "unsubstantiated." (Nibbs was reprimanded once for failing to report that a girl was being bullied in class.) The dismissal of numerous complaints against Nibbs by investigators was a terrible mistake that resulted in more girls being assaulted. But none of those investigations involved Hernández. 

The Florida Republican Party also falsely claimed that Nibbs was a "high ranking member" of UTD. Nibbs was a building steward. In the MDPS district, there are more than 800 stewards. The building stewards are selected by union members at individual schools. Union leaders like Hernández are not involved in selecting stewards. 

The fact that the allegations against Hernández are false has not prevented them from being promoted extensively by the DeSantis campaign. Christina Pushaw, who recently left DeSantis' official office to become Director of Rapid Response for his campaign, tweeted that Hernández "protected" Nibbs "through years of investigations and student rape allegations." (In her role in the Governor's office, Pushaw asserted that anyone who opposed DeSantis' "Don't Say Gay" legislation, which prohibited many teachers from acknowledging the existence of LGBTQ people, was "probably a groomer.")  

A week ago, Pushaw established a new Twitter account, DeSantis War Room. That account has been used repeatedly to smear Hernández with allegations that she protected a sexual predator. 


According to a source familiar with DeSantis’ campaign strategy, the DeSantis campaign has also been aggressively pitching the false allegations about Hernández to Florida reporters.

But the effort to push the smear against Hernández into the mainstream media was apparently unsuccessful. So during a media event Tuesday, DeSantis pushed disinformation about Hernández himself. "You do not put union politics ahead of middle school students who are in danger of being sexually abused," DeSantis said, "That’s disqualifying to be in any political office, much less Lieutenant Governor of Florida." DeSantis also falsely characterized Nibbs as UTD's "top union henchman." DeSantis "left without giving reporters a chance for a followup about his accusations."

Samantha Ramirez, campaign communications director for the Crist/Hernández campaign, called DeSantis' comments "a lie." The Florida Republican Party and the DeSantis campaign did not respond to a request for comment. 

Another false accusation against Hernández
The Florida GOP also claimed Hernández and the UTD "lobbied and worked with the Biden administration to cover up and stop collecting sexual assault data from schools." The accusation refers to the Biden administration’s November 2021 proposal to change the questions in a survey known as the Civil Rights Data Collection. The Fox News article cited by the Florida GOP does not include any mention of Hernández or the UTD. It also does not provide any evidence that any teachers union was involved in crafting the proposal. The Fox News article is based on an article in the Free Beacon, another right-wing publication, which similarly provides no evidence for the Florida GOP's claim. Free Beacon simply quotes a research fellow with the right-wing American Enterprise Institute who states, without evidence, that teachers' unions, in general, want to protect "pedophiles." 

The Department of Education proposed to retire data collection established under the Trump administration about “rape or attempted rape, or sexual assault” to "reduce burden and duplication of data." A spokesperson from the Department of Education told Fox News that, even if the proposed rule were adopted, the Office for Civil Rights would "continue to collect data on the number of documented incidents of offenses committed by school staff, including rape or attempted rape, and sexual assault.” 

In December 2021, the Department of Education announced it was withdrawing the original proposal and issuing a new one that included the previously omitted questions.

[BigPapaKain]

Just remember folks - every accusation by a Republican is an admission of guilt.

[*Nately120*]

I just saw a clip of DeSantis in action and he really is copying the Trump playbook now, isn't he? It's a bit weird...could be effective, but still. Maybe he can run in 2024 against an Obama impersonator.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-01-2022, 04:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I just saw a clip of DeSantis in action and he really is copying the Trump playbook now, isn't he? It's a bit weird...could be effective, but still. Maybe he can run in 2024 against an Obama impersonator.

Rittenhouse v Smollett VP debates will be intense.