Politics and Religion

[hollodero]

For one, since the topic is as such, I have to express my bewilderment about your politicians talking about faith and God and prayers so awfully much. Left and Right, everyone prays for every issue and every person and every enemy every minute of every day. This is just gross. But maybe I'm just used to more rationally arguing leaders.

But for sure, many Americans seem to be quite religious people, and many American politicians are incredibly willing to be void of any principle and to appear as whatever is convenient. So probably, no surprise.

I'm also bewildered that 80% or so of republican voters still seem to be in awe of Trump. What also struck me is one of the most popular explanations on how people can overlook all the lies, hyperboly and stupidity in Trump's words. They take him seriously, but not literally, so I'm told. And I suppose quite literally the only other entity that gets this kind of benefit is the Bible. One does not stone thy neighbor if he, whatever, works on a Sunday. One does none of the outrageous things the Bible suggests one should do. But it's still the most sacred book ever written, and holds the one and only truth. Seriously, not literally.

There are many other examples, but this one should do to illustrate my point. To me, the US political struggle less and less looks like a battle of ideas or policies or ideology. It is a religious quarrel. People siding with Trump (not all conservatives, far from it) treat their affiliation as a religious commitment. One that does not need truth or facts or observable variables. Just faith.

And so, I more and more regard Trump not as a political leader, but a religious leader. Not for churches or of Christianity. But for the MAGA church and of Trumpianity. A sect.

It seems to explain a lot.
Your takedown, please.

[GMDino]

(03-02-2021, 11:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: For one, since the topic is as such, I have to express my bewilderment about your politicians talking about faith and God and prayers so awfully much. Left and Right, everyone prays for every issue and every person and every enemy every minute of every day. This is just gross. But maybe I'm just used to more rationally arguing leaders.

But for sure, many Americans seem to be quite religious people, and many American politicians are incredibly willing to be void of any principle and to appear as whatever is convenient. So probably, no surprise.

I'm also bewildered that 80% or so of republican voters still seem to be in awe of Trump. What also struck me is one of the most popular explanations on how people can overlook all the lies, hyperboly and stupidity in Trump's words. They take him seriously, but not literally, so I'm told. And I suppose quite literally the only other entity that gets this kind of benefit is the Bible. One does not stone thy neighbor if he, whatever, works on a Sunday. One does none of the outrageous things the Bible suggests one should do. But it's still the most sacred book ever written, and holds the one and only truth. Seriously, not literally.

There are many other examples, but this one should do to illustrate my point. To me, the US political struggle less and less looks like a battle of ideas or policies or ideology. It is a religious quarrel. People siding with Trump (not all conservatives, far from it) treat their affiliation as a religious commitment. One that does not need truth or facts or observable variables. Just faith.

And so, I more and more regard Trump not as a political leader, but a religious leader. Not for churches or of Christianity. But for the MAGA church and of Trumpianity. A sect.

It seems to explain a lot.
Your takedown, please.

Kind of why so many refer to it as a "cult".  It is more about the leader and how he makes them feel than about anything else.

If one can not only overlook all of their faults but actively deny them it becomes that the leader can do no wrong and you approach religious like fervor. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-02-2021, 11:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: For one, since the topic is as such, I have to express my bewilderment about your politicians talking about faith and God and prayers so awfully much. Left and Right, everyone prays for every issue and every person and every enemy every minute of every day. This is just gross. But maybe I'm just used to more rationally arguing leaders.

But for sure, many Americans seem to be quite religious people, and many American politicians are incredibly willing to be void of any principle and to appear as whatever is convenient. So probably, no surprise.

Yeah, the US has always had a healthy dollop of religion mixed in with its politics.  Seeing as how many of the earlier settlers were fleeing persecution in Europe you got a big mix of different denominations.  Of course the central theme was always a high degree of piety, feigned or not.  For anyone that religious it can't help but bleed into everything else in your life, politics being no exception.  You don't exactly stop being something you've been for three hundred plus years overnight.

Quote:I'm also bewildered that 80% or so of republican voters still seem to be in awe of Trump. What also struck me is one of the most popular explanations on how people can overlook all the lies, hyperboly and stupidity in Trump's words. They take him seriously, but not literally, so I'm told. And I suppose quite literally the only other entity that gets this kind of benefit is the Bible. One does not stone thy neighbor if he, whatever, works on a Sunday. One does none of the outrageous things the Bible suggests one should do. But it's still the most sacred book ever written, and holds the one and only truth. Seriously, not literally.

There are many other examples, but this one should do to illustrate my point. To me, the US political struggle less and less looks like a battle of ideas or policies or ideology. It is a religious quarrel. People siding with Trump (not all conservatives, far from it) treat their affiliation as a religious commitment. One that does not need truth or facts or observable variables. Just faith.

You're kind of halfway there, but its quite honestly a clash between what those on the left see as confronting and correcting historic evils and the right seeing it as an assault on the very foundations of the nation.  Both sides are simultaneously correct and wrong.  As Bel has correctly pointed out Trump is a symptom.  He's accelerated a trend that has been in motion for some time.

Quote:And so, I more and more regard Trump not as a political leader, but a religious leader. Not for churches or of Christianity. But for the MAGA church and of Trumpianity. A sect.

It seems to explain a lot.
Your takedown, please.

I don't think that's largely true, although it certainly is for some.  I think for many right leaning people the vision the left has for the future of this nation is abhorrent.  In a way their position is completely understandable, they're now being told that everything they stand for and are proud of in their nation is evil and wrong.  Their culture is discounted or dismissed as never existing.  Unfortunately exactly what I feared, and predicted here, is coming to pass.  There are many on the left who do not want a reckoning of past wrongs, they also want punishment for those they feel have perpetrated those wrongs or benefit from them.  Many on the right, often correctly, feel they are being lumped in with awful people or practices simply by dint of their genetics (there's a word for this type of behavior btw).  To combat this they turned to someone who promised a stop to this, a bulwark against this trend if you will.  So, IMO, it's more about a return to nationalism than it is to a religion, at least for most.  I think a large percentage of his supporters want to return to being able to be publicly proud of the US as a nation and its culture without being ridiculed and labeled a racist, yokel, redneck, hillbilly etc.  

Unfortunately the cultural trend on the left isn't going to allow for this so we will see the schism only widen in the near future.  The end game to all of this is the only thing that's currently up in the air.

[*Nately120*]

Faith is the ultimate safespace.

[hollodero]

(03-02-2021, 12:08 PM)GMDino Wrote: Kind of why so many refer to it as a "cult".

I get that, it's just that cult seems so exclusive, as in some few apparently mentally hhandicapped people following a guru-like figure that sees wisdom in the stones or whatever. Religion, that is more mainstream, as is following a certain religion or certain preachers, which many reasonable people do. I deem it less blatantly offensive to put it that way.

[fredtoast]

Politicians in the United States are always talking about religion, and many of the "hot button" political issues involve religion (abortion, same sex marriage, decriminalized drug use, etc). But overall I think we do a decent job of keeping our laws from being dictated by religious beliefs. At least compared to some other areas.

As I have said many time before, there will be no peace in the Middle East until those countries separate their religion from their politics. There are no compromises when it comes to religion. So no amount of bombs, diplomacy, economic sanctions, or anything will bring peace until most of those countries have secular governments.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-02-2021, 11:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: I'm also bewildered that 80% or so of republican voters still seem to be in awe of Trump.

Curious, how did you arrive at this estimate?

[GMDino]

(03-02-2021, 12:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: I get that, it's just that cult seems so exclusive, as in some few apparently mentally hhandicapped people following a guru-like figure that sees wisdom in the stones or whatever. Religion, that is more mainstream, as is following a certain religion or certain preachers, which many reasonable people do. I deem it less blatantly offensive to put it that way.

That gets us into the discussion about are all religions cults but we base it on the size of the group of believers.

Where I (try) to make a distinction in my mind is are the followers following the person who leads or the beliefs of the group.  

Christianity is so far removed from Jesus Christ that the followers *claim* to be following him but really just follow how they interpret his beliefs.  2000 years ago I'd put it in the cult category with the following of one person.

Trumpism seems to be based on believing in Trump and that Trump is right and is the only one who can solve the "problems".

[hollodero]

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, the US has always had a healthy dollop of religion mixed in with its politics.  Seeing as how many of the earlier settlers were fleeing persecution in Europe you got a big mix of different denominations.  Of course the central theme was always a high degree of piety, feigned or not.  For anyone that religious it can't help but bleed into everything else in your life, politics being no exception.  You don't exactly stop being something you've been for three hundred plus years overnight.

Well, I'm an European. We more or less did stop it, and we used to be just as religious as those first settlers. The difference rather was the confession, not the devotion.

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're kind of halfway there, but its quite honestly a clash between what those on the left see as confronting and correcting historic evils and the right seeing it as an assault on the very foundations of the nation.  Both sides are simultaneously correct and wrong.  As Bel has correctly pointed out Trump is a symptom.  He's accelerated a trend that has been in motion for some time.

I consider him a symptom for many things, for a media world creating rifts, a social media world designed to reaffirm beliefs and radicalize them, a strict duality in political thinking that I deem unhealthy, and then some. Trump is - in hindsight - quite a logical development in many respects. But the religion-like devotion is something I still see as special, and also something that is not quite that prevalent on the left. The left usually does not love their own that unconditionally. I say that to spark controversy, of course :)

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think that's largely true, although it certainly is for some.  I think for many right leaning people the vision the left has for the future of this nation is abhorrent.

I totally understand that, and I tried to put a "not all conservatives" exception into my words. I get that many probably voted Trump for that very reason, or like you (I suppose) did not vote for the alternative for that very reason. I am not at all talking of people with a persepective similar to yours. Eg. you always kept it real when it comes to Trump, and did not quite advocate a "take him seriously, not literally" view, or claimed that sometimes God sends bad people to do good things and all that more religious approach. Not even all Trump supporters will have that approach. Just, imho, many many do.

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In a way their position is completely understandable, they're now being told that everything they stand for and are proud of in their nation is evil and wrong.

I read that often, and it is something I do not fully understand. Who tells them that everything they are proud of is evil and wrong? Imho, that's not quite as dominant as you make it out to be.
Most on the left considered feverishly supporting Trump as wrong, me amongst them. But rarely do I see someone calling conservatives flat-out evil. That there's vast disagreement on many things is not the same thing as telling people they are evil, or supporting evil by leaning right. There are times where I consider the conservative take on that as slightly hyperbolic. As I, admittedly, often do in many respects.
I am aware that Joy Reed (I don't even want to check the spelling) or some other figures could probably reasonably be seen as demonizing, but I doubt that figures like that are a fitting rolemodel for the left as a whole.

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Their culture is discounted or dismissed as never existing.  Unfortunately exactly what I feared, and predicted here, is coming to pass.  There are many on the left who do not want a reckoning of past wrongs, they also want punishment for those they feel have perpetrated those wrongs or benefit from them.  Many on the right, often correctly, feel they are being lumped in with awful people or practices simply by dint of their genetics (there's a word for this type of behavior btw).  To combat this they turned to someone who promised a stop to this, a bulwark against this trend if you will.  So, IMO, it's more about a return to nationalism than it is to a religion, at least for most.

Yeah well, as an European again I have a hard time to see democrats as not quite that nationalistic. To me, almost everyone in the US is pretty nationalistic to begin with.
As for the grand scheme of the things you said, I reiterate that I do not feel conservatives are persecuted in quite that extreme manner. I also feel that many many conservatives take mere contradiction as being demonized. I might be tainted by my own experience, where time and again I was asked with much anger if I want to call soomeone a deplorable now? No, I just dared to expressed a different view, and I usually have no idea where this extreme reaction is coming from. Imho, there's often some fretfulness going on.

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   I think a large percentage of his supporters want to return to being able to be publicly proud of the US as a nation and its culture without being ridiculed and labeled a racist, yokel, redneck, hillbilly etc.  

I don't really see that either. I don't see the left as being fundamentally opposed to all aspects of american culture, in fact not at all. To some aspects, sure. And some loudmouths probably take it too far, in colleges or some really spaced-out circles. But the average democrat voter? That one is still proud of the US, of its cultural achievements, of being a shining city on a hill and the greatest nation on earth. In short, I much more see Bels as a typical left-leaning American then I see Antifa folks as such.

[Belsnickel]

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think a large percentage of his supporters want to return to being able to be publicly proud of the US as a nation and its culture without being ridiculed and labeled a racist, yokel, redneck, hillbilly etc.

Unfortunately the cultural trend on the left isn't going to allow for this so we will see the schism only widen in the near future.  The end game to all of this is the only thing that's currently up in the air.

Honestly, this is one of the things we try hard to fight against in Appalachia specifically, but the South more broadly. We've even had conversations on this in this forum when discussing the trash that is Hillbilly Elegy and its author. Though, to be fair, I have no objections to the term redneck or hillbilly when describing me, but the idea that these are denigrative terms is one causes a lot of problems for the Democrats. Lefty types in Appalachia tend to be very critical of the party for this reason. The way the region has been treated has caused the people to become disillusioned with the major parties in a lot of ways and is why Trump gained such a foothold, but it has also caused the more left-leaning to go further left than the Democrats. A lot of it has to do with the cultural trend going on.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-02-2021, 12:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, I'm an European. We more or less did stop it, and we used to be just as religious as those first settlers. The difference rather was the confession, not the devotion.

Eh, there are myriad reasons for why that degree of religious devotion waned in Europe and not the US.  Way beyond the scope fo this conversation.

Quote:I consider him a symptom for many things, for a media world creating rifts, a social media world designed to reaffirm beliefs and radicalize them, a strict duality in political thinking that I deem unhealthy, and then some. Trump is - in hindsight - quite a logical development in many respects. But the religion-like devotion is something I still see as special, and also something that is not quite that prevalent on the left. The left usually does not love their own that unconditionally. I say that to spark controversy, of course :)

Obama is pretty much a god to the left, although he certainly has his detractors.  Again, I think you're reading too much into the religion aspect and not accounting enough for the nationalism facet.  Although there is certainly a sizeable percentage of Trump followers who do so for religious reasons I think a far larger percentage do so for reasons of nationalism.

Quote:I totally understand that, and I tried to put a "not all conservatives" exception into my words. I get that many probably voted Trump for that very reason, or like you (I suppose) did not vote for the alternative for that very reason. I am not at all talking of people with a persepective similar to yours. Eg. you always kept it real when it comes to Trump, and did not quite advocate a "take him seriously, not literally" view, or claimed that sometimes God sends bad people to do good things and all that more religious approach. Not even all Trump supporters will have that approach. Just, imho, many many do.

No, it's certainly not all, and I think the reasons that people support Trump are much more varied than you realize.  As I've stated here many times, I work in East LA, the vast majority of people ate my work location are Hispanic.  The vast majority of them are major Trump supporters.

Quote:I read that often, and it is something I do not fully understand. Who tells them that everything they are proud of is evil and wrong? Imho, that's not quite as dominant as you make it out to be.
Most on the left considered feverishly supporting Trump as wrong, me amongst them. But rarely do I see someone calling conservatives flat-out evil. That there's vast disagreement on many things is not the same thing as telling people they are evil, or supporting evil by leaning right. There are times where I consider the conservative take on that as slightly hyperbolic. As I, admittedly, often do in many respects.
I am aware that Joy Reed (I don't even want to check the spelling) or some other figures could probably reasonably be seen as demonizing, but I doubt that figures like that are a fitting rolemodel for the left as a whole.

I think here is where you not residing here hinders your ability to see this.  I certainly live in a very far left area of the country, consequently what I see is a more extreme version of what others get.  But one need only watch television for your daily dose of white people suck or the US is inherently racist.

Quote:Yeah well, as an European again I have a hard time to see democrats as not quite that nationalistic. To me, almost everyone in the US is pretty nationalistic to begin with.
As for the grand scheme of the things you said, I reiterate that I do not feel conservatives are prosecuted in quite that extreme manner. I also feel that many many conservatives take mere contradiction as being demonized. I might be tainted by my own experience, where time and again I was asked with much anger if I want to call soomeone a deplorable now? No, I just dared to expressed a different view, and I usually have no idea where this extreme reaction is coming from. Imho, there's often some fretfulness going on.

It's demonization more than persecution.  Of course the concern is that the demonization will eventually lead to persecution.

Quote:I don't really see that either. I don't see the left as being fundamentally opposed to all aspects of american culture, in fact not at all. To some aspects, sure. And some loudmouths probably take it too far, in colleges or some really spaced-out circles. But the average democrat voter? That one is still proud of the US, of its cultural achievements, of being a shining city on a hill and the greatest nation on earth. In short, I much more see Bels as a typical left-leaning American then I see Antifa folks as such.

It may very well be a case of the loud minority getting the attention.  In fact it's probably true.  What concerns me is that the loud minority is not told to STFU by the rest.  

[hollodero]

(03-02-2021, 12:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Curious, how did you arrive at this estimate?

Well, for example here, where it says 81% of republicans have a positive view of Trump.

Here it says that only 21% of republicans would vote for a candidate that is critical of Trump.

Are these true? I don't know. My biggest indicator is all the McConnells and Grahams etc. quickly turning back to absolutely supporting Trump. They do that because they believe these numbers are significant.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-02-2021, 01:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, this is one of the things we try hard to fight against in Appalachia specifically, but the South more broadly. We've even had conversations on this in this forum when discussing the trash that is Hillbilly Elegy and its author. Though, to be fair, I have no objections to the term redneck or hillbilly when describing me, but the idea that these are denigrative terms is one causes a lot of problems for the Democrats. Lefty types in Appalachia tend to be very critical of the party for this reason. The way the region has been treated has caused the people to become disillusioned with the major parties in a lot of ways and is why Trump gained such a foothold, but it has also caused the more left-leaning to go further left than the Democrats. A lot of it has to do with the cultural trend going on.

Exactly.  There is a massive double standard at work here where it is perfectly acceptable to use racist terms to describe white people or to make broad, negative generalizations about them.  Lok at the New York Times.  They just fired a guy for an incident in which he used a racial slur to make a point or as an example.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/11/media/new-york-times-dean-baquet-town-hall/index.html

But the same paper continues to employ a woman who routinely wrote racist tweets about white people.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/03/sarah-jeong-new-york-times-twitter-posts-racism


Of course, being an ethnic minority and targeting white people she got a pass.  She was just "mimicking her harassers".  How are members of Congress supporting a known racist like Louis Farrakhan with zero repercussions?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/republican-jewish-coalition-calls-resignation-democrats-ties-farrakhan/story?id=53601481

OPED:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nation-of-islam-and-the-house-11546559607


We either have to say this behavior is unacceptable from anyone or not.  A double standard, which is clearly at work here, will only perpetuate this problem.  I'm sure that our resident white guilt members will post something stating, "Won't someone think of the white people", but this type of hatred only perpetuates the problem, especially when it is routinely given a pass.

As an aside, look for this tactic, because it happens frequently.  A left leaning person will say something abhorrent.  They'll get heat for it.  They will counter with, "I'm now being harassed and sent death threats".  It's used all the time to excuse their initial behavior/statement.  It means nothing in regards to what they said/did, it's only done to distract.

[Belsnickel]

(03-02-2021, 01:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, for example here, where it says 81% of republicans have a positive view of Trump.

Here it says that only 21% of republicans would vote for a candidate that is critical of Trump.

Are these true? I don't know. My biggest indicator is all the McConnells and Grahams etc. quickly turning back to absolutely supporting Trump. They do that because they believe these numbers are significant.

There is a difference, though, between being in awe of Trump and having a generally positive view. Admittedly, the second figure does little to help my argument, but it is true that because of media consumption there are people who have zero idea how shitty Trump is. They know he got them the judges they wanted and they heard the positive things about him from right-wing sources. Does this mean they are in awe of him? Probably not, but they would have a generally positive view of him.

That being said, the CPAC straw poll had him winning decisively if the primary were today, so who knows.

[fredtoast]

(03-02-2021, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In a way their position is completely understandable, they're now being told that everything they stand for and are proud of in their nation is evil and wrong. 

This is the whole "western culture" that guys like Tucker Carlson use to cover for discriminating against other races and religions.

What are some specific examples of "everything they stand for" being labeled "evil".  Statues of heroes of the Confederacy?  Demonizing Mexican and Muslim immigrants?  Allowing Christians to discriminate based on their religious beliefs?  Strictly enforced mandatory displays of patriotism?

What exactly are these things that conservatives stand for that are being denigrated?

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-02-2021, 01:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, for example here, where it says 81% of republicans have a positive view of Trump.

Here it says that only 21% of republicans would vote for a candidate that is critical of Trump.

Are these true? I don't know. My biggest indicator is all the McConnells and Grahams etc. quickly turning back to absolutely supporting Trump. They do that because they believe these numbers are significant.

You can choose to take my word on this or not, but I assure you the majority of Republicans aren't in "awe" of Donald Trump and never were.  (Awe is a really strong word)

The majority of Republicans (WELL over 90%) don't have stickers on their car, don't go to rallys, don't have signs in their yard, and most importantly, voted mainly for him based on his either his policy or the letter next to his name (R or D, like all too many Americans)

The problem is that his supporters are stupid and loud (the one's I'm describing above, not simply voters).  And even more than that, our media (mainstream, social, etc) is hellbent on extemely polarizing coverage.

Ex: The video of a clear Trump supporter with a room temperature IQ yelling in front of wherever will get 10x the amount of traction as a Republican who's looking to have a legitimate conversation about immigration.

Ex:  The video of an Antifa member throwing a rock at a cop's head will get 10x the amount of views as the Democrat looking to a have a conversation about why their local police force needs  a hovercraft and an armoured psudeo-tank.

I pesonally know a lot of Republicans that think Trump is an absolute clown, but they prefer his policy.  He was the lesser of two evils for them.  In no way do they want to be associated with the "cult" that people like to think makes up so much of the party (it doesn't).

I feel like I could go on a huge rant here, but I'll just say this.  The average democrat and average republican are nowhere near the political spectrum the climate currently suggest.  They're not just one side of boxes you can checkmark down their respective side. 

And as many Democrats who aren't exactly thrilled with Biden, but felt he was better than alternative, I think the same is true with a lot of Republicans, both in 2016 and 2020.  People are closer to the middle, and have more common than what the extemes on each side present.

Just my 2 cents...

PS On McConnell and Graham... they're just playing politics. That's an entirely different conversation. Trust me, they're not big Trump fans.

[Belsnickel]

(03-02-2021, 01:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: And as many Democrats who aren't exactly thrilled with Biden, but felt he was better than alternative, I think the same is true with a lot of Republicans, both in 2016 and 2020.  People are closer to the middle, and have more common than what the extemes on each side present.

Just my 2 cents...

Well, the problem with that is that Biden is the middle. He's a moderate, an establishment Democrat, a neo-liberal. He represents pretty much everything the more lefty type dislike about the Democratic party. I don't think most people have a political ideology, they have party loyalty.

[fredtoast]

(03-02-2021, 01:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   Lok at the New York Times.  They just fired a guy for an incident in which he used a racial slur to make a point or as an example.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/11/media/new-york-times-dean-baquet-town-hall/index.html

They did not fire him.  He resigned after admitting what he did was wrong.

(03-02-2021, 01:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But the same paper continues to employ a woman who routinely wrote racist tweets about white people.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/03/sarah-jeong-new-york-times-twitter-posts-racism

Times condemned the language she used in the tweets and she apologized.  Then "Western Culture" champion Tucker Carlson claimed that the New York Times embraced “race guilt, collective punishment and moral purity based on bloodline” by defending Jeong.


In both cases the NYT condemned the language used. Both people apologized and admitted the language was wrong. Neither person was fired. But this is now the banner of how white people are being victimized.

It is nothing but spin and BS.

[hollodero]

(03-02-2021, 01:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Obama is pretty much a god to the left, although he certainly has his detractors.

That is tough to compare though, on the grounds that Obama was not Trump. Meaning he did not say outrageous Trump things, he did not... [insert mile-long list of Trump things Trump did], so the devotion of him was not nearly as intensely tested out.

Cuomo would be a better comparison imho. He was real popular a few months back. I'm sure he has his defenders still. What does not happen though is that people call all the new accusations fake news put out by deeply dishonest reporters that are enemies of the people, and whoever attacks Cuomo is not called mentally deranged, blinded by hatred, brainwashed by the media or a dumb sheep incapable of independent thought.
While all of this was frequently said when someone was critical of Trump. All of that was also said to me.

(03-02-2021, 01:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Again, I think you're reading too much into the religion aspect and not accounting enough for the nationalism facet.  Although there is certainly a sizeable percentage of Trump followers who do so for religious reasons I think a far larger percentage do so for reasons of nationalism.

Again :) the issue might be that I just don't see the left as that much less nationalistic. All of them repeat all the time how the US is the greatest country on earth. Almost no one in Austria would ever say that about our country. So I might have an other perspective on nationalism to begin with.
I also think in the US, the two tend to mix. God's own country and such.

(03-02-2021, 01:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, it's certainly not all, and I think the reasons that people support Trump are much more varied than you realize.  As I've stated here many times, I work in East LA, the vast majority of people ate my work location are Hispanic.  The vast majority of them are major Trump supporters.

Yeah, maybe I did still present a way too narrow view. I tried to make clear that I don't want to paint every Trump voter with the same brush, but it might be too broad a brush still. But no, of course there are multiple varying reasions to support Trump. It's this wide-spread unconditional devotion that leads me to putting my take the way I did, this devotion that still baffles me.

(03-02-2021, 01:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think here is where you not residing here hinders your ability to see this.  I certainly live in a very far left area of the country, consequently what I see is a more extreme version of what others get.  But one need only watch television for your daily dose of white people suck or the US is inherently racist.

I'm severely hindered, so I'm not insisting too much on anything. I did watch some US TV though (had to stop after a while for my sanity). I did not quite reach the same impression then you did. I could not recognize a constant stream of voices calling all white people racist. I do agree that what I saw in regard to racism often took it too far and often was taken as truth too easily, that just falling in line with the PC thing to say is way too popular. I might have blind spots for sure, for one I do think that the US still has a racism problem and this can and should be addressed. But who says "all white people suck" really. I keep calling that a tad hyperbolic.

--- when it comes to TV. What goes on in California, I don't know. The more I know, the more I believe there is indeed some actual craziness going on.

(03-02-2021, 01:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It may very well be a case of the loud minority getting the attention.  In fact it's probably true.  What concerns me is that the loud minority is not told to STFU by the rest.  

Yeah... in my view, political people in the US have a tendency to not aim at their own under no circumstances. I also feel that goes both ways. Not many on the right tell folks that claim the election was stolen to STFU either. This is not a defense, for I think you're quite right there.

[hollodero]

(03-02-2021, 01:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You can choose to take my word on this or not, but I assure you the majority of Republicans aren't in "awe" of Donald Trump and never were.  (Awe is a really strong word)

I know. I KNOW... I used a term I shouldn't have used, I realized it when answering to you, I still hoped it would slip through somehow. Well, it did not, thanks to you and Bels. So, point well taken.

(03-02-2021, 01:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The majority of Republicans (WELL over 90%) don't have stickers on their car, don't go to rallys, don't have signs in their yard, and most importantly, voted mainly for him based on his either his policy or the letter next to his name (R or D, like all too many Americans)

The problem is that his supporters are stupid and loud (the one's I'm describing above, not simply voters).  And even more than that, our media (mainstream, social, etc) is hellbent on extemely polarizing coverage.

Ex: The video of a clear Trump supporter with a room temperature IQ yelling in front of wherever will get 10x the amount of traction as a Republican who's looking to have a legitimate conversation about immigration.

Ex:  The video of an Antifa member throwing a rock at a cop's head will get 10x the amount of views as the Democrat looking to a have a conversation about why their local police force needs  a hovercraft and an armoured psudeo-tank.

I pesonally know a lot of Republicans that think Trump is an absolute clown, but they prefer his policy.  He was the lesser of two evils for them.  In no way do they want to be associated with the "cult" that people like to think makes up so much of the party (it doesn't).

I feel like I could go on a huge rant here, but I'll just say this.  The average democrat and average republican are nowhere near the political spectrum the climate currently suggest.  They're not just one side of boxes you can checkmark down their respective side. 

And as many Democrats who aren't exactly thrilled with Biden, but felt he was better than alternative, I think the same is true with a lot of Republicans, both in 2016 and 2020.  People are closer to the middle, and have more common than what the extemes on each side present.

I find little to oppose here. These are good points and I see it quite similarly. The only things I'd say in response is a) that democrats, I believe, would not have accepted someone just like Trump, that this is an extreme that is unmatched and could not be swallowed so easily on that side. Case in point. b) Trump DID win the primaries, and as of now, he would still win the primaries again with way more than 50% support. If it were just as you said, republican voters could just go with someone who is less of a clown. But a majority of republicans still would pick Trump over someone else. That's why I don't think Trump can just be explained by people holding their nose and reluctantly voting for his conservative policies.

(03-02-2021, 01:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: PS On McConnell and Graham... they're just playing politics.  That's an entirely different conversation.  Trust me, they're not big Trump fans.

I know. I brought them up because as you said, they do what they think is best for their personal career. It just happens that as of now, they consider backing Trump as being said best move. And I believe they think that because the polling and overall climate within the party seems to indicate as much.