Sometimes it is a drag being correct

[xxlt]

I am going to call it a decade and a half and change ago when more that once during the Bush years I pointed to our country's fascist leanings. The Obama years were little more than a speed bump in the march rightward. Ironically many who most cheered the march outcomes loudly denied it was happening. Yet now it has become so embarrassingly obvious civilized leaders of democracies around the world can rattle off a litany of things Our President does and say, no I am not talking about a fascist dictator from the 1930s but the American President. ( see linked article for example). I really wish I was the crazy alarmist I was accused of being, but I was correct.

It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish?

With his lackeys cheering his highest approval rating ever (creeping past 40 percent) and him cockier than ever because literally any American but him would be under indictment for his crimes (some.high powered Republican lawyers from Bush's and Reagan's administrations have said so on camera) I am sad over how correct I was. Our *Leader* is above the law (yes, in large part because Pelosi is a ***** - why she strikes fear in Conservative hearts is beyond me) and the only question is how far above. He once boasted he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenu in broad daylight with no repercussions. I believe he could indeed shoot someone dead - not wound but kill -and the Speaker of the House would shrug and say, "Well the Senate won't convict him so why bother." I guess that is my question. Do you agree our current President could commit murder in broad daylight on camera with scores of witnesses and no consequences?

[Benton]

(06-03-2019, 11:07 PM)xxlt Wrote: I am going to call it a decade and a half and change ago when more that once during the Bush years I pointed to our country's fascist leanings. The Obama years were little more than a speed bump in the march rightward. Ironically many who most cheered the march  outcomes loudly denied it was happening. Yet now it has become so embarrassingly obvious civilized leaders of democracies around the world can rattle off a litany of things Our President does and say, no I am not talking about a fascist dictator from the 1930s  but the American President.  ( see linked article for example). I really wish I was the crazy alarmist I was accused of being, but I was correct.

It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish?      

With his lackeys cheering his highest approval rating ever (creeping past 40 percent) and him cockier than ever because literally any American but him would be under indictment for his crimes (some.high powered Republican lawyers from Bush's and Reagan's administrations have said so on camera) I am sad over how correct I was. Our *Leader* is above the law (yes, in large part because Pelosi is a ***** - why she strikes fear in Conservative hearts is beyond me) and the only question is how far above. He once boasted he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenu in broad daylight with no repercussions. I believe he could indeed shoot someone dead - not wound but kill -and the Speaker of the House would shrug and say, "Well the Senate won't convict him so why bother." I guess that is my question. Do you agree our current President could commit murder in broad daylight on camera with scores of witnesses and no consequences?

It's just the nature of our partisanship.

Our local senior center is closing it's doors. Why? Because 60 percent of the funding was cut in one year. Why? Because the board was all appointed by the previous Democrat administration. It's the last 'democrat' board in the county. Once the agency ceases to exist, the republican govetnment will (hopefully) start something of their own. U til then? A handful of us middle age guys are trying to figure out how to provide 2500ish meals to seniors caught in the crossfires of all the damn winning.

[xxlt]

(06-03-2019, 11:46 PM)Benton Wrote: It's just the nature of our partisanship.

Our local senior center is closing it's doors. Why? Because 60 percent of the funding was cut in one year. Why? Because the board was all appointed by the previous Democrat administration. It's the last 'democrat' board in the county. Once the agency ceases to exist, the republican govetnment will (hopefully) start something of their own. U til then? A handful of us middle age guys are trying to figure out how to provide 2500ish meals to seniors caught in the crossfires of all the damn winning.

Man, thanks for sharing but that stinks.WTH happened to this country (I blame Obama)? What happened to America first? What happened to respect the people who paved the way for us? Damn, if they are willing to sacrifice services to senior citizens (the only people who vote in any significant number and the only people almost universally revered by the average citizen) things are worse than even I thought. 

[NATI BENGALS]

People thought TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) was a joke about democrats.

It is a serious mental illness that effects many of our fellow Americans. If you can just get right on board with a lifelong conman being president I can kind of wrap my head around that and understand because Hillary was a flawed shitty candidate. But if you are paying attention and still staying on board after 2.5 years of absolute embarrassment and degradation of our good name on the global scale while the national debt sky rockets, infrastructure crumbles, and common decency is a thing of the past.... It is a disease.

[Benton]

(06-03-2019, 11:56 PM)xxlt Wrote: Man, thanks for sharing but that stinks.WTH happened to this country (I blame Obama)? What happened to America first? What happened to respect the people who paved the way for us? Damn, if they are willing to sacrifice services to senior citizens (the only people who vote in any significant number and the only people almost universally revered by the average citizen) things are worse than even I thought. 

I honestly haven't looked much nationally, but locally we went all I republicans. And it's been a hard hit. The elrderly and the poor have been the hardest hit. The churches spent all their money on concerts and crap following the school shooting, so basically it's just poor people selling their crap at yard sales and pan handling. 

[treee]

The parties aren't even about ideology anymore (federally). It's a naked power struggle for all to see with a half-assed attempt to make it look policy-based. Every federal politician is fighting to give their particular brand of corporate master the biggest cut, of the prosperity that belongs to the people.

[hollodero]

(06-03-2019, 11:07 PM)xxlt Wrote: With his lackeys cheering his highest approval rating ever (creeping past 40 percent) and him cockier than ever because literally any American but him would be under indictment for his crimes (some.high powered Republican lawyers from Bush's and Reagan's administrations have said so on camera) I am sad over how correct I was. Our *Leader* is above the law (yes, in large part because Pelosi is a ***** - why she strikes fear in Conservative hearts is beyond me) and the only question is how far above. He once boasted he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenu in broad daylight with no repercussions. I believe he could indeed shoot someone dead - not wound but kill -and the Speaker of the House would shrug and say, "Well the Senate won't convict him so why bother." I guess that is my question. Do you agree our current President could commit murder in broad daylight on camera with scores of witnesses and no consequences?

I tend to believe yes, absolutely he could. As absurd as it seems. (Maybe an argument like "Hillary would have killed way more people" would do it.)

Also, I get why you slam Nancy Pelosi, but isn't she correct? The senate would indeed never go along, which indeed would be perceived as a loss and probably would only help Trump. It's not her fault, it's the republican senator's fault, isn't it?

- I feel like interjecting once more that while what you say rings basically true, it's yet frowned upon when someone suggests an overhaul of your whole political system. Which sure is not the only, but a major problem that leads to this duality, which again leads to all the partisanship and stereotype thinking and a sense of leader cult.

Oh and also, democrats are bad, republicans are worse. I initially didn't care either way, but observation leads to that point. If Obama had said and done the stuff Trump did... yeah he'd be gone long time ago now.

[xxlt]

(06-04-2019, 04:12 AM)treee Wrote: The parties aren't even about ideology anymore (federally). It's a naked power struggle for all to see with a half-assed attempt to make it look policy-based. Every federal politician is fighting to give their particular brand of corporate master the biggest cut, of the prosperity that belongs to the people.

That's a really good take. And nationally the Republicans almost invariably win because they both fight dirty and spend far less time pretending to care about policy and far more grabbing.

[xxlt]

(06-04-2019, 04:36 AM)hollodero Wrote: I tend to believe yes, absolutely he could. As absurd as it seems. (Maybe an argument like "Hillary would have killed way more people" would do it.)

Also, I get why you slam Nancy Pelosi, but isn't she correct? The senate would indeed never go along, which indeed would be perceived as a loss and probably would only help Trump. It's not her fault, it's the republican senator's fault, isn't it?

- I feel like interjecting once more that while what you say rings basically true, it's yet frowned upon when someone suggests an overhaul of your whole political system. Which sure is not the only, but a major problem that leads to this duality, which again leads to all the partisanship and stereotype thinking and a sense of leader cult.

Oh and also, democrats are bad, republicans are worse. I initially didn't care either way, but observation leads to that point. If Obama had said and done the stuff Trump did... yeah he'd be gone long time ago now.

If we were talking about a bill to regulate something already fairly well regulated Pelosi could be considered right. But this dereliction of duty on her part is about as big as it gets. Massive fail for her and her party. She is endorsing criminality. That is never a winning look.

[hollodero]

(06-04-2019, 07:20 AM)xxlt Wrote: If we were talking about a bill to regulate something already fairly well regulated Pelosi could be considered right. But this dereliction of duty on her part is about as big as it gets. Massive fail for her and her party. She is endorsing criminality. That is never a winning look.

"Endorsing" seems a bit harsh. If a criminal goes free for lack of evidence, his deeds are not endorsed. And Trump would go free, no matter what she does.

I mean, I generally tend to agree, but I guess I can understand the position she's in. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't-scenario. Democrats can not win an impeachment battle. They can do the "right" thing for history, but it would be the wrong thing to get rid of Trump here and now. Plain and simple. Would you disagree with that?

[Belsnickel]

I've drastically reduced my political media consumption in favor of more outdoorsy podcasts and pursuits. Mostly because thoughts like these were causing me a ton of stress. Don't get me wrong, I still stay informed, but I pretty much only consumed political media for a couple of years, there. Even while fishing, political podcasts would be in my ear. Now, I heard a conversation on one of the podcasts I still listen to about the question of impeachment.

I have to say that while I think Trump deserves impeachment, the question becomes "what do we get out of it?" 100% guaranteed he is still in office afterwards. So what accountability does it bring? It's not going to move the approval rating needle because we haven't sen that change much with any of the revelations about him. There is also a sizable portion of Democrats in the House that aren't all in on the notion of it, which means there is the potential for a divided caucus on the vote. That can be damaging to Democrats.

Those are all political considerations, though. If you're anything like me, you hate these excuses and just want people to ignore the politics when dealing with corruption. Unfortunately, impeachment is a political process and so political considerations are a big part of the calculus, and it is why Pelosi isn't moving forward on things.

[GMDino]

(06-04-2019, 08:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've drastically reduced my political media consumption in favor of more outdoorsy podcasts and pursuits. Mostly because thoughts like these were causing me a ton of stress. Don't get me wrong, I still stay informed, but I pretty much only consumed political media for a couple of years, there. Even while fishing, political podcasts would be in my ear. Now, I heard a conversation on one of the podcasts I still listen to about the question of impeachment.

I have to say that while I think Trump deserves impeachment, the question becomes "what do we get out of it?" 100% guaranteed he is still in office afterwards. So what accountability does it bring? It's not going to move the approval rating needle because we haven't sen that change much with any of the revelations about him. There is also a sizable portion of Democrats in the House that aren't all in on the notion of it, which means there is the potential for a divided caucus on the vote. That can be damaging to Democrats.

Those are all political considerations, though. If you're anything like me, you hate these excuses and just want people to ignore the politics when dealing with corruption. Unfortunately, impeachment is a political process and so political considerations are a big part of the calculus, and it is why Pelosi isn't moving forward on things.

I've gone back and forth and now lean toward impeachment.  Much like with Clinton there is enough to move forward whether you get the result of the Senate voting in favor or not.


Just my opinion.

[Beaker]

(06-03-2019, 11:07 PM)xxlt Wrote: I am going to call it a decade and a half and change ago when more that once during the Bush years I pointed to our country's fascist leanings. 

Trump is an absolute moron and an embarrassment, but those who call him fascist are way off base and don't actually know what true fascism is.

[Belsnickel]

(06-04-2019, 09:59 AM)Beaker Wrote: Trump is an absolute moron and an embarrassment, but those who call him fascist are way off base and don't actually know what true fascism is.

I have typically seen it defined as a combination of nationalism and authoritarianism. He rose to the presidency relying on nationalism, and he certainly has authoritarian tendencies. He hasn't been able to completely fulfill those tendencies because of the guardrails of democracy holding him from it, but those guardrails have a lot of dents in them right now.

People hear fascism and all they think of is the end result. The fascist dictators that have made the history books. But those are the "success" stories. For every one of those, there are budding fascists that have tested democracies all over the world, and I truly believe Trump is one of those. There are a lot of people in the field of political science that see it this way, as well. Well respected scholars see proto-fascist tendencies within our country right now, scholars that have researched the rise and fall of democracies at the hands of fascists around the globe.

So people that dismiss the claims of fascism with Trump as easily as you are the ones that don't truly know fascism. The history, the trends, the rise of it around the world. It's more of a concern in this country than you realize.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-04-2019, 09:29 AM)GMDino Wrote: I've gone back and forth and now lean toward impeachment.  Much like with Clinton there is enough to move forward whether you get the result of the Senate voting in favor or not.


Just my opinion.

Trump is praying they impeach him, it would almost cinch his second term on its own.  There's a reason a canny operator like Pelosi is heavily resisting it.

(06-04-2019, 10:39 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have typically seen it defined as a combination of nationalism and authoritarianism. He rose to the presidency relying on nationalism, and he certainly has authoritarian tendencies. He hasn't been able to completely fulfill those tendencies because of the guardrails of democracy holding him from it, but those guardrails have a lot of dents in them right now.

People hear fascism and all they think of is the end result. The fascist dictators that have made the history books. But those are the "success" stories. For every one of those, there are budding fascists that have tested democracies all over the world, and I truly believe Trump is one of those. There are a lot of people in the field of political science that see it this way, as well. Well respected scholars see proto-fascist tendencies within our country right now, scholars that have researched the rise and fall of democracies at the hands of fascists around the globe.

So people that dismiss the claims of fascism with Trump as easily as you are the ones that don't truly know fascism. The history, the trends, the rise of it around the world. It's more of a concern in this country than you realize.

I'm going to have to completely disagree here.  Name a country with a long history of democratic government that eventually slid into fascism, or any other form of autocracy.  The Framers sank the foundations deep on our form of government.  

[fredtoast]

(06-04-2019, 07:14 AM)xxlt Wrote: That's a really good take. And nationally the Republicans almost invariably win because they both fight dirty and spend far less time pretending to care about policy and far more grabbing.

Republicans have won the popular vote for President only once ('04) in the last 30 years.  That is the only "national" election we have.

Democrats currently have a majority in the House and also controlled the Senate 8 of the last 14 years.

[Belsnickel]

(06-04-2019, 12:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm going to have to completely disagree here.  Name a country with a long history of democratic government that eventually slid into fascism, or any other form of autocracy.  The Framers sank the foundations deep on our form of government.  

You really aren't disagreeing with me with this response. Those foundations are deep, which is why the guardrails are still in place. But we are an established democracy, a long history of being one, which does make us stronger against the threat, but not at all immune. With each norm eroded, with each failure of the legislature to perform oversight, the guardrails become weaker.

I don't think we will reach a point of fascism, I think we will hold up, but that doesn't mean the threat isn't very real. And make no mistake, this isn't just about Trump. This has been going on for a century or so as we have seen the expansion of executive power that has created the situation in which a president could do this much damage. The people's branch, Congress, has steadily given up powers over the years as it has become increasingly less representative of the people it is supposed to serve. That is a hallmark stepping stone around the world, one that has been more gradual here than in other places, but it has occurred none the less. The failure to engage in oversight over the executive is one more step along that path.

[fredtoast]

(06-04-2019, 12:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Trump is praying they impeach him, it would almost cinch his second term on its own.  There's a reason a canny operator like Pelosi is heavily resisting it.


I'm going to have to completely disagree here.  Name a country with a long history of democratic government that eventually slid into fascism, or any other form of autocracy.  The Framers sank the foundations deep on our form of government.  

I have to agree with SSF on both points here.  


1.  A failed impeachment would make Trump giddy, and the Senates will not remove him.

2.  While we need to be wary of guys like Trump we have to remember that our country has survived Presidents suspending Habeas Corpus (Lincoln); attempting to expand the Supreme Court to pack it with supporters of the President (FDR); and forcing two Attorney Generals to resign before getting one to fire the special prosecutor appointed to investigate him (Nixon).  Trump may bluster, but he has not gone as far as any of these previous Presidents.

As for the country as a whole things may seem bad now but here is a little perspective.  This country lost its shit when one person died in Charlottesville in '17, but in 1992 fifty-three people were killed in the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict.  The death tolls of the race riots in the 60's are staggering (Detroit 43, Watts 34, Newark 26, Chicago 11).  And then there were the students gunned down protesting the Vietnam war.  In just three school shootings (Kent State, South Carolina State, Jackson State) police/national guard shot 52 students killing 9 (although apparently only the 4 white ones at Kent state really mattered)

[GMDino]

(06-04-2019, 12:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Trump is praying they impeach him, it would almost cinch his second term on its own.  There's a reason a canny operator like Pelosi is heavily resisting it.


I'm going to have to completely disagree here.  Name a country with a long history of democratic government that eventually slid into fascism, or any other form of autocracy.  The Framers sank the foundations deep on our form of government.  

DJT also loves Suing people because he is sure he will win (or can wait them out) despite losing so many of them.


He's not a smart man.  An impeachment inquiry could turn up stuff that maybe even those supporters (and non-supporters who feel the need to defend him at all turns) might find worthy of removal from office.

Probably won't happen but, in my opinion, it's better than a shrug of the shoulders and an saying "oh, that's just Don...what can you do?".

[GMDino]

(06-04-2019, 01:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have to agree with SSF on both points here.  


1.  A failed impeachment would make Trump giddy, and the Senates will not remove him.

2.  While we need to be wary of guys like Trump we have to remember that our country has survived Presidents suspending Habeas Corpus (Lincoln); attempting to expand the Supreme Court to pack it with supporters of the President (FDR); and forcing two Attorney Generals to resign before getting one to fire the special prosecutor appointed to investigate him (Nixon).  Trump may bluster, but he has not gone as far as any of these previous Presidents.

As for the country as a whole things may seem bad now but here is a little perspective.  This country lost its shit when one person died in Charlottesville in '17, but in 1992 fifty-three people were killed in the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict.  The death tolls of the race riots in the 60's are staggering (Detroit 43, Watts 34, Newark 26, Chicago 11).  And then there were the students gunned down protesting the Vietnam war.  In just three school shootings (Kent State, South Carolina State, Jackson State) police/national guard shot 52 students killing 9 (although apparently only the 4 white ones at Kent state really mattered)

Lincoln was fighting a war, FDR didn't get his way (or even start to implement it) and Nixon had the sense to step-down.

Trump is just Trump.  He's certainly not smart enough to know when to quit.