The Justices spar over the constitutionality of the death penalty

[*bfine32*]

(06-30-2015, 01:06 AM)Benton Wrote: And I find it weird when pro-life people are pro-capital punishment. It's ok to kill an innocent adult, but it's worse to murder an innocent baby? A life is a life, all of them sacred. 

Please look one post above yours for explanation.

Link to anybody saying it is OK to kill an innocent adult.

[Benton]

(06-30-2015, 01:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Most likely because the Bible calls for death in the case of intentional murder.  The bible also says we (society) should take special care to ensure the innocent are not punished unjustly.

So, as a Christian we have to hope the Justice system (society) gets it right or we would have to be against every form of punishment.

You can say it makes no sense for a Christian to be for the death penalty; can you also say it makes no sense for a Christian to be against Life in Prison.

Eh, not seeing that. At the time, most cultures answered murder with murder. Capital punishment applied to a variety of crimes, including theft in some cultures during that time. Roman law was one of the harshest of all cultures at that period in time. You could be killed for instigating a fight. A female could be killed for not being a virgin. The punishment for killing a family member was to be sewn into a bag with animals, normally a hungry dog.

I don't think life in prison would be considered unjust given the time period. 

Even more so when considering the whole "turn the other cheek" issue. 

[StLucieBengal]

(06-30-2015, 12:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Because you don't understand what ironic means.  The two issues have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

But I do find it interesting that so many people who claim to be Christians are in favor of killing innocent people.

Got any hard evidence that Christians overwhelmingly support the death penalty?

Please post.

[Benton]

(06-30-2015, 01:11 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Please look one post above yours for explanation.

Link to anybody saying it is OK to kill an innocent adult.

But that is the biggest part of the issue. We can debate about killing anyone, but that's largely a moral debate.

The bigger issue that everyone should be able to agree on, morals aside, is that the legal system makes mistakes. It has to, it's made up of people. And we aren't perfect. LEOs, attorney, judges, juries — there's no shortage of people who can make an error in the process.

[*bfine32*]

(06-30-2015, 01:17 AM)Benton Wrote: Eh, not seeing that. At the time, most cultures answered murder with murder. Capital punishment applied to a variety of crimes, including theft in some cultures during that time. Roman law was one of the harshest of all cultures at that period in time. You could be killed for instigating a fight. A female could be killed for not being a virgin. The punishment for killing a family member was to be sewn into a bag with animals, normally a hungry dog.

I don't think life in prison would be considered unjust given the time period. 

Even more so when considering the whole "turn the other cheek" issue. 

God's first guidance in Human Governance was If you shed man's blood then your blood should be shed by man.

I'm sorry you don't agree with the word.

The word also gives numerous accounts of making sure you are right before you pass judgement. 

Turn the other cheek is how the individual should behave. Not how society should judge.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-30-2015, 01:20 AM)Benton Wrote: But that is the biggest part of the issue. We can debate about killing anyone, but that's largely a moral debate.

The bigger issue that everyone should be able to agree on, morals aside, is that the legal system makes mistakes. It has to, it's made up of people. And we aren't perfect. LEOs, attorney, judges, juries — there's no shortage of people who can make an error in the process.

Isn't human error part of the equation ?

All the players are human, which means there will be errors, there will be some corruption, it's just part of the process and will always be ..... If your peers think you deserve death or any punishment then it's their choice. Those people have to decide, and have it on their conscience. Just as the attorney or judge has it on theirs if they let someone die.

Legal system will never be without fault. The most exreme cases need heavy punishment ..... Should it be death? Idk..... It should be very severe for those who really hurt society. Rapists, murders, child predators, human and sex trafficing, and DV abusers.

[*bfine32*]

(06-30-2015, 01:20 AM)Benton Wrote: But that is the biggest part of the issue. We can debate about killing anyone, but that's largely a moral debate.

The bigger issue that everyone should be able to agree on, morals aside, is that the legal system makes mistakes. It has to, it's made up of people. And we aren't perfect. LEOs, attorney, judges, juries — there's no shortage of people who can make an error in the process.

Of course mistakes are made; although, word states we should take special care to ensure there are not. 

So should we forego all punishment, just in case society gets it wrong?

[Benton]

(06-30-2015, 01:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: God's first guidance in Human Governance was If you shed man's blood then your blood should be shed by man.

I'm sorry you don't agree with the word.

The word also gives numerous accounts of making sure you are right before you pass judgement. 

Turn the other cheek is how the individual should behave. Not how society should judge.

I don't follow the old testament, no. I think it's pretty clear you and I differ there.

Personally, I don't try to work around Jesus's teachings to alleviate my conscience. Jesus didn't include asterisks in his teaching. 

[fredtoast]

(06-30-2015, 01:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Most likely because the Bible calls for death in the case of intentional murder.  The bible also says we (society) should take special care to ensure the innocent are not punished unjustly.

So, as a Christian we have to hope the Justice system (society) gets it right or we would have to be against every form of punishment.

You can say it makes no sense for a Christian to be for the death penalty; can you also say it makes no sense for a Christian to be against Life in Prison.

With life in prison the mistake can be corrected.  It happens all the time.  

When god tell you to "take special care" and proof come ups that the system does not work that means you are disobeying god.  You support a system that does not work in direct violation of gods orders.

[*bfine32*]

(06-30-2015, 01:33 AM)Benton Wrote: I don't follow the old testament, no. I think it's pretty clear you and I differ there.

Personally, I don't try to work around Jesus's teachings to alleviate my conscience. Jesus didn't include asterisks in his teaching. 

So turn the other cheek.  Should society forgive all crime (no asterisks allowed)?

[fredtoast]

(06-30-2015, 01:30 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So should we forego all punishment, just in case society gets it wrong?

Another brilliant Bfine32 argument.

[fredtoast]

(06-30-2015, 01:33 AM)Benton Wrote: I don't follow the old testament, no. I think it's pretty clear you and I differ there.

Talk about irony.  

Do you think Jesus was in favor of the death penalty?

[*bfine32*]

(06-30-2015, 01:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: With life in prison the mistake can be corrected.  It happens all the time.  

When god tell you to "take special care" and proof come ups that the system does not work that means you are disobeying god.  You support a system that does not work in direct violation of gods orders.

Mistakes can also be found in cases of Capital Punishment. As a matter of fact I think a closer look is taken in these cases.

Really not sure what you are saying with the rest. But the scripture does state we should punish those that provide false witness. 

[fredtoast]

(06-30-2015, 01:40 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Really not sure what you are saying with the rest. 

I am saying that when proof arises that the system does not work then you can not support it.  Your own god told you not to.  Wouldn't you agree that supporting a system that does not work is not "taking special care" not to kill innocent people?

[Benton]

(06-30-2015, 01:29 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Isn't human error part of the equation ?  

All the players are human, which means there will be errors, there will be some corruption, it's just part of the process and will always be .....  If your peers think you deserve death or any punishment then it's their choice.     Those people have to decide, and have it on their conscience.    Just as the attorney or judge has it on theirs if they let someone die.  

Legal system will never be without fault.   The most exreme cases need heavy punishment ..... Should it be death?  Idk.....   It should be very severe for those who really hurt society.    Rapists, murders, child predators, human and sex trafficing, and DV abusers.

To the bolded, no. It isn't, and that's the problem. Courts were set up and have been molded over time by people who specialize in the law.

When was the last time you knew anyone who specialized who regularly admitted they were wrong? College professors? Doctors? Barbers?

(06-30-2015, 01:30 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course mistakes are made; although, word states we should take special care to ensure there are not. 

So should we forego all punishment, just in case society gets it wrong?

Let any ones of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone. 

He didn't make light of the issue. He told her to leave her life of sin. At the same time, he made it clear killing her was not acceptable, even though society viewed it an acceptable punishment.

I don't think life in prison is unreasonable, even in Jesus's eyes. It may be unjust, but we are men. We make mistakes. But that mistake preserves the life, it allows for a correction. It also allows the person to atone for their sins, because even if they are innocent of the murder, there's still a good chance they have some sin in their life.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(06-30-2015, 01:18 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Got any hard evidence that Christians overwhelmingly support the death penalty?

Please post.

Thought that I'd put this out there. It doesn't necessarily support either side of the argument.  

Christians have a slightly higher approval rate of capital punishment than non-Christians.  I actually expected a bigger gap there.  I imagine that the difference has a lot to do with the fact that religious folk have a higher likelihood of conservative opinions than the non-religious.  Or is the religion influencing the politics?  Meh.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/14050/who-supports-death-penalty.aspx

[Benton]

(06-30-2015, 01:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Talk about irony.  

Do you think Jesus was in favor of the death penalty?

Go down a post or two. Or up. I'm getting confused in all the responses.

Either way, no. He said so. That's where the "cast the first stone" saying comes from.

[*bfine32*]

(06-30-2015, 01:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am saying that when proof arises that the system does not work then you can not support it.  Your own god told you not to.  Wouldn't you agree that supporting a system that does not work is not "taking special care" not to kill innocent people?

Who said the system does not work? The system is not flawless. As the scripture states we have to trust society to get it right after they do their best.

I am also against locking innocent people up for the rest of their lives as well.

[fredtoast]

(06-30-2015, 01:44 AM)Benton Wrote: Let any ones of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone. 

Rep.

Too many Christians want to live by the Old Testament.

[*bfine32*]

(06-30-2015, 01:45 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Thought that I'd put this out there. It doesn't necessarily support either side of the argument.  

Christians have a slightly higher approval rate of capital punishment than non-Christians.  I actually expected a bigger gap there.  I imagine that the difference has a lot to do with the fact that religious folk have a higher likelihood of conservative opinions than the non-religious.  Or is the religion influencing the politics?  Meh.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/14050/who-supports-death-penalty.aspx

It just makes Christians look worse if they overwhelmingly support "killing innocent people".