Trump on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-17-2018, 10:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: That is awful, animal like behavior.

I couldn't find a link tot he story about it though.  I'm not doubting you (sincerely) I just wanted to read about it as that didn't make our news out here.  In fact MS13 never makes the news in our area unless Trump is talking about them.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of gang related homicides do not make the news.  I searched for it as well and couldn't find it.  I know the case is making its way through the adult system as we speak as I followed the juvenile court process that sent the offenders to adult court.

[GMDino]

(05-17-2018, 11:27 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think you'll find that the vast majority of gang related homicides do not make the news.  I searched for it as well and couldn't find it.  I know the case is making its way through the adult system as we speak as I followed the juvenile court process that sent the offenders to adult court.

Got it.  If they were juveniles that may be why I didn't find anything yet.  Thanks.

[BmorePat87]

He totally copied that off someone I know. I hope he got royalties.

[Belsnickel]

(05-17-2018, 10:50 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I finally listened to it and this is exactly correct.  He was directly referring to MS13 members when he made the "animals" comment.  As someone who has dealt with this gang extensively I can tell you that his term is more generous then I would typically use.  MS13 likes to dispatch their victims with edged weapons, typically machetes.  We recently had a case where two MS13 members raped and then chopped two girls up with machetes in Griffith Park.  Mind you, in the southern California area MS is subservient to the Mexican Mafia so we don't even get them at their most extreme.

Yeah, we have MS-13 and Sur 13 (which I think you might actually be referring to when talking about the subservient groups, but it's hard to say because of the alliances they have with each other) around here and they are pretty vicious.

I have a problem with dehumanizing language in general. I'm not a fan of otherizing anyone for a number of reasons. Not just because it is an attempt to make it easier to see them as less than, but also because referring to them in that way has an implication that they have less agency in their actions than they do. Anyway, it's a complicated thing but the tl;dr version is that the statement is still problematic for me, it just isn't being represented fairly in the media.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-17-2018, 08:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So is the "states rights" crowd going to support California on this sanctuary city issue?

Is the "'states rights' crowd" advocating for the federal government to come in and change California law? If not, then why do you care if they disagree with specific laws in specific states?

I fail to see how if one were to believe that states' rights supercede federal rights (or however you wish to define the "states rights crowd") means that one also agrees with every law that every state has on its books.

[Bengalzona]

I used to call my drinking buddies in college "Animals", but I suspect that this is not the same thing, eh.

[*bfine32*]

Well Sarah sets them straight:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/white-house-calling-ms-13-animals-isnt-strong-enough/ar-AAxr1L8?li=BBnb7Kz


I must say I've generally considered NPR to be as unbiased as any news outlet, but even they started with "Trump call undocumented immigrants animals" today.

[jmccracky]

(05-17-2018, 04:46 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I used to call my drinking buddies in college "Animals", but I suspect that this is not the same thing, eh.

All of my ex girlfriend's I called animals. Errrr..... Wait..... .

[Belsnickel]

(05-17-2018, 06:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well Sarah sets them straight:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/white-house-calling-ms-13-animals-isnt-strong-enough/ar-AAxr1L8?li=BBnb7Kz


I must say I've generally considered NPR to be as unbiased as any news outlet, but even they started with "Trump call undocumented immigrants animals" today.

I think this sums it up best to me:

Awful lot of reporters screwed up re: Trump’s “animals” remark. It’s the result of a media climate that feeds on outrage and speed and re-tweets. But it’s also the result of Trump’s own history of using racially-charged language and the total erosion of any benefit of the doubt.

— Tim Alberta (@TimAlberta) May 17, 2018

[GMDino]

(05-17-2018, 07:43 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this sums it up best to me:

Awful lot of reporters screwed up re: Trump’s “animals” remark. It’s the result of a media climate that feeds on outrage and speed and re-tweets. But it’s also the result of Trump’s own history of using racially-charged language and the total erosion of any benefit of the doubt.

— Tim Alberta (@TimAlberta) May 17, 2018

Even with the benefit of the doubt he never mentioned MS13.  In fact the entire exchange is about illegal immigrants with one mention of MS13 before the "animals" comment:

(All bold from the source.)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/may/17/context-donald-trumps-comments-about-immigrants-an/

Quote:Margaret Mims, Fresno County Sheriff: "Thank you, Mr. President. You know, sheriffs in California are now in an untenable position when it comes to trying to figure out — now, we have state law, we have federal laws, and here we are stuck in the middle. Sheriffs, especially, because most of us run our county jails.


"When there became a legal challenge to the 48-hour holds for ICE, it was very frustrating for us. So what I did is I invited ICE to put their officers in my jails so they're able to do their work. We didn't have the staffing to be able to help figure out who they wanted to talk to or didn't. I said, come on in, work with our people to keep our community safe. Two weeks later, Mr. President, Kate Steinle was murdered.

"Now, I wasn't the only sheriff to do that. Sheriff Youngblood did, Sheriff Christianson. And it was perfect — because we didn't have to take our time, with our staff, to do, to do anything. ICE was in there doing their work in a safe, controlled, environment. And then, the initiatives started happening -- the TRUST Act, the TRUTH Act, and finally, SB 54, the Values Act. And that is causing us all kinds of turmoil.

"So here we are, stuck in the middle, trying to decide. We have federal law, we have state law. And that's why I welcomed Attorney General Sessions's lawsuit, because that will provide us the clarity that we need and direction that we need. What
do we do? Because here we are.

"And I appreciated Mr. Homan and ICE. We had a great relationship; we still do. But now ICE is the only law enforcement agency that cannot use our databases to find the bad guys. They cannot come in and talk to people in our jail, unless they reach a certain threshold. They can't do all kinds of things that other law enforcement agencies can do. And it's really put us in a very bad position."

Trump: "It's a disgrace. Okay? It's a disgrace."

Mims: "It's a disgrace."

Trump: "And we're suing on that, and we're working hard, and I think it will all come together, because people want it to come together. It's so ridiculous. The concept that we're even talking about is ridiculous. We'll take care of it, Margaret. We'll win."

Mims: "Thank you. There could be an MS-13 gang member I know about — if they don't reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it."

Trump: "We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we're stopping a lot of them — but we're taking people out of the country. You wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals. And we're taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that's never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It's crazy.

The dumbest laws, as I said before, the dumbest laws on immigration in the world. So we're going to take care of it, Margaret. We'll get it done."

He didn't say MS13.  And in typical fashion he lumped "people" all together: The ones coming in, the ones they are stopping and the ones they are taking out...because they have probably removed more non-MS13/gang members than actual gang members.  

I agree it may have been taken a bit out of context...but not nearly as obviously as Trump would like us to believe given his past comments on illegal immigrants.

[*Nately120*]

Trump's supporters rallied behind Hilary calling them "deplorables" so perhaps the animals and the proud deplorables can have a showdown, West Side Story-style.

[GMDino]

(05-18-2018, 01:55 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump's supporters rallied behind Hilary calling them "deplorables" so perhaps the animals and the proud deplorables can have a showdown, West Side Story-style.

Well we all "knew" when she said that she meant each and ever person who supported Trump no matter what!  No benefit of the doubt there! 

[*Nately120*]

(05-18-2018, 02:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: Well we all "knew" when she said that she meant each and ever person who supported Trump no matter what!  No benefit of the doubt there! 

Hey, all I'm saying is the accidental power you can give a group of animals/deplorables by giving them a banner behind which to rally.  They need Trump so they can point their fingers and say "That's de bad guy!"

[*PhilHos*]

(05-18-2018, 01:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: Even with the benefit of the doubt he never mentioned MS13.  In fact the entire exchange is about illegal immigrants with one mention of MS13 before the "animals" comment:

No, the entire exchange is about illegal immigrants in prison.MS13 aren't the only illegal immigrants to commit crimes that would put them in prison.

[GMDino]

(05-18-2018, 02:16 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, the entire exchange is about illegal immigrants in prison.MS13 aren't the only illegal immigrants to commit crimes that would put them in prison.

Doesn't that just feed into "they are sending us rapists...an a few good people" line though?  Like was said, giving Trump the benefit of the doubt is difficult given his rhetoric.  Him calling "most" illegal immigrants animals wouldn't be out of line for him at all.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-18-2018, 02:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: Doesn't that just feed into "they are sending us rapists...an a few good people" line though?  Like was said, giving Trump the benefit of the doubt is difficult given his rhetoric.  Him calling "most" illegal immigrants animals wouldn't be out of line for him at all.

It's not about benefit of the doubt. It's about what's FACTUAL or not. Giving crap to Trump for something he didn't actually say but he believably might have said only HELPS him with things like when he cries 'fake news'. 

[GMDino]

(05-18-2018, 02:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It's not about benefit of the doubt. It's about what's FACTUAL or not. Giving crap to Trump for something he didn't actually say but he believably might have said only HELPS him with things like when he cries 'fake news'. 

Again, and this might be part of him not being well spoken at all, but he didn't say "That's right.  Those MS13 are animals".  He said:

Quote:We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we're stopping a lot of them — but we're taking people out of the country. You wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals. And we're taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that's never happened before. 

He probably meant the MS13 alone because he's told the lie before about how many we have "taken out of the country" but he lumped them in with "people coming into the country".  So, sure, he probably meant that.  I'm just saying it would not surprise me in the least based on past comments if he lumped them all in together because he REALLY can't tell the difference between a violent gang member and someone arrested for any other reason.

[*bfine32*]

(05-18-2018, 02:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It's not about benefit of the doubt. It's about what's FACTUAL or not. Giving crap to Trump for something he didn't actually say but he believably might have said only HELPS him with things like when he cries 'fake news'. 

Rational folks with normal comprehension skills knows he was talking about MS 13. He response was directly following Sheriff Mims talking about MS13.
Folks that do not fully understand this need to question either their rationality or their comprehension.
Trump says plenty of stupid stuff, but when folks try to slant everything he says toward the negative, the actual negative things are often overlooked.

[StLucieBengal]

All you guys who want to jump the shark on every trump comment is going to just ensure his people just draw closer to winning in the midterms.

[GMDino]

(05-18-2018, 03:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Rational folks with normal comprehension skills knows he was talking about MS 13. He response was directly following Sheriff Mims talking about MS13.
Folks that do not fully understand this need to question either their rationality or their comprehension.
Trump says plenty of stupid stuff, but when folks try to slant everything he says toward the negative, the actual negative things are often overlooked.

(05-18-2018, 03:14 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: All you guys who want to jump the shark on every trump comment is going to just ensure his people just draw closer to winning in the midterms.

See if Trump says he referenced MS13...and he didn't.

Fake News Media had me calling Immigrants, or Illegal Immigrants, “Animals.” Wrong! They were begrudgingly forced to withdraw their stories. I referred to MS 13 Gang Members as “Animals,” a big difference - and so true. Fake News got it purposely wrong, as usual!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 18, 2018

Probably what he meant.  Maybe what he meant.  Not what he said.

Kind of like we can't assume what happened before the video starts...we can't assume what this President "meant".  I mean it wouldn't be the first time he said something and the spin was "he meant" to say something else.  Right?  

"benefit of the doubt"