Trump on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'

[*Nately120*]

(06-19-2018, 04:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wouldn't say it is equal, I'm just saying the left is guilty of it as well. Especially when you look at the end of the era of big government and the rise of neo-liberalism.


The indirect influence that the lever-pullers exert is done so on the policy makers and the media. Reporters and editors are not those I have issue with. It is the corporate overlords to which they get their paychecks.

Ok, I promise I'm done. If we wish to continue this discussion another thread would be more appropriate.

Let me save us all some time:

POINT - It sucks that there are children suffering in this country because they are poor.
COUNTERPOINT - People in this country are poor because they are lazy and want handouts and spend all their money on iphones. Also, my cousin totally saw some guy using food stamps to buy lobster once.  Screw 'em.

END SCENE

[fredtoast]

(06-19-2018, 06:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you think the percentage of illegal immigrants that do not show up for their case is closer to the low of 20% your article suggested or the high of 90% that mine did? Any other liberal can feel free to answer as well.

Considering the article you quoted cherry picked a 9 month span while mine covers many years I'd say it is closer to the 20% than the 90%.

Even your numbers show that half of the children appeared.

[Belsnickel]

(06-19-2018, 06:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 90% do not show up for their appointment. If that is not grounds to institute a zero tolerance policy, then I'm not sure what is. We do all we can to place these children in the custody of relatives and treat them no differently than we do the child of a US citizen that is arrested for committing a crime. Of course I wish the children were not in the situation they are, but the current administration did not make them victims.

An appointment set over a year away. I have a hard time keeping track of appointments that far in advance. This is why I advocate appropriating more resources to clear the backlog. Also, not turning away away asylum seekers at ports of entry would be good, too.

[*bfine32*]

(06-19-2018, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Considering the article you quoted cherry picked a 9 month span while mine covers many years I'd say it is closer to the 20% than the 90%.

Even your numbers show that half of the children appeared.

Noted that you roll with your article that took "numbers" from 6-15 years ago. I'll roll with mine from 3 years ago. But that's most likely because I live in the "echo chamber".

Any other liberal want to answer the question posed?

[*bfine32*]

(06-19-2018, 07:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: An appointment set over a year away. I have a hard time keeping track of appointments that far in advance. This is why I advocate appropriating more resources to clear the backlog. Also, not turning away away asylum seekers at ports of entry would be good, too.

No doubt. Who expects anyone to remember an appointment as trivial as that?

[Belsnickel]

(06-19-2018, 07:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt. Who expects anyone to remember an appointment as trivial as that?

Lots of people, that's why courts send reminders. Of course, if you are not economically stable you may not be easy to find to remind.

[Belsnickel]

Quote:The debate over parental separation is really just a facade. The real debate is over what we ought to do with border policy. It is a question of both human rights and a question of freedom.

Most countries, the United States included, limit the mobility of people. We chain them to the countries in which they were born. We do this because we believe that national origin or ethnic idenitty predicts more than other variables can. Being "German" is more important than some other identifier.

So what do we do? In this piece Buchanan argues we need to seal them off before we become tainted. It is a valid argument if you accept the above premise.

I reject that premise. The United States is a contractual country. We formed not from an identity but from an idea. The question ought be: what makes us so amazing that everyone wants to live here? Why don't we want the person who risks life and limb to be part of our idea?

True freedom means freedom of movement. Freedom to choose our density. In the same way that I can ditch one product and use another, why not let countries be picked from freely. It is, of course, the underpinning of our state system. The ability to choose among Florida, Ohio or Oklahoma.

Buchanan is wrong not about border policy. He is wrong about humanity and about freedom. Bring me your tired, hungry, and poor and yearning to be free. If that idea inspires you come and be an American with us. We are the ragtag bunch who are a shining beacon on the hill because of what we believe, not where we were born.

In the same way that freeing capital from the bonds of state control created the modern economic economy, so too will we one day see that liberating people -- allowing them the freedom fo movement -- will unleash the next great advance for humanity.

Maybe Buchanan would debate me on the show? - Trey

[*bfine32*]

(06-19-2018, 07:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Lots of people, that's why courts send reminders. Of course, if you are not economically stable you may not be easy to find to remind.

So it has grown from it's not solely their fault that the cross illegally to it's not solely their for not showing up in court.

BTW, do you want to weigh in on Fred and my discussion about the percentage that do not show?

[Belsnickel]

(06-19-2018, 07:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So it has grown from it's not solely their fault that the cross illegally to it's not solely their for not showing up in court.

Well, for the children that are the victims in all of this and the ones I am discussing, it is their fault for neither of these things. I was merely saying that the backlog causing the year to two year wait time is one potential reason for the high percentage of those that don't show up.

(06-19-2018, 07:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: BTW, do you want to weigh in on Fred and my discussion about the percentage that do not show?

Not really, because I've said all I need to on that.

[*bfine32*]

(06-19-2018, 07:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: 1. Well, for the children that are the victims in all of this and the ones I am discussing, it is their fault for neither of these things. I was merely saying that the backlog causing the year to two year wait time is one potential reason for the high percentage of those that don't show up.


2. Not really, because I've said all I need to on that.

1. Of course the kids are innocent

2. Meh, I did ask for the liberal to be honest. I understand.

[Belsnickel]

So, after what was likely abysmal polling numbers, the administration seems to be reversing course:

BREAKING: AP Sources: Homeland Security secretary drafting order to end family separation at border; unclear if Trump will sign it.

— The Associated Press (@AP) June 20, 2018

Interesting. I thought that only Congress could fix it. Or was it that they didn't have a policy in place to separate families? Either way, this shows they consistently lied about this. Too bad that will be glossed over and forgotten. Of course, it will be interesting if he plays to his base who likes the policy, or if he will cave to the pressure from the general public.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, after what was likely abysmal polling numbers, the administration seems to be reversing course:

BREAKING: AP Sources: Homeland Security secretary drafting order to end family separation at border; unclear if Trump will sign it.

— The Associated Press (@AP) June 20, 2018

Interesting. I thought that only Congress could fix it. Or was it that they didn't have a policy in place to separate families? Either way, this shows they consistently lied about this. Too bad that will be glossed over and forgotten. Of course, it will be interesting if he plays to his base who likes the policy, or if he will cave to the pressure from the general public.

Now that I've started thinking about this, depending on what the order does, it could face a losing battle in the courts. We know that there is a legal solution that is more humane, but this may result in being an optics move to make people think Congressional action is the only way.

[*bfine32*]

Well, this immigration stuff is getting out of hand. A White House meeting about it has interrupted my World Cup viewing.

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, after what was likely abysmal polling numbers, the administration seems to be reversing course:

BREAKING: AP Sources: Homeland Security secretary drafting order to end family separation at border; unclear if Trump will sign it.

— The Associated Press (@AP) June 20, 2018

Interesting. I thought that only Congress could fix it. Or was it that they didn't have a policy in place to separate families? Either way, this shows they consistently lied about this. Too bad that will be glossed over and forgotten. Of course, it will be interesting if he plays to his base who likes the policy, or if he will cave to the pressure from the general public.

Well at least you've already managed to but a negative spin on whichever he does. He either "plays to his base" or "caves". As long as we don't present the option of him looking to fix a system of where 80+% does not report when instructed to (regardless what Fred claims) we can make him and the administration look bad in either scenario.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2018, 01:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well at least you've already managed to but a negative spin on whichever he does. He either "plays to his base" or "caves". As long as we don't present the option of him looking to fix a system of where 80+% does not report when instructed to (regardless what Fred claims) we can make him and the administration look bad in either scenario.

I'm of the opinion that he has no firm ideology and so he is even more guided by those around him and by public opinion than many other politicians. Whichever he chooses it will be for optics. It's not trying to put a negative spin on it, it's just my view of our current POTUS.

[Arturo Bandini]

Thanks to Melania Trump.

[BmorePat87]

It only took weeks of him lying, his former campaign chair mocking disabled children, leaked audio of crying children, over 20 state AG's filing complaints, and massive public backlash for Trump to end an inhumane policy that he enacted.

Hopefully Congress takes action anyways to prevent this from happening again.

[Belsnickel]

I can't decide which thread this goes best in: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/michael-cohen-resigns-rnc-committee-post/story?id=56033406

Quote:Michael Cohen, President Trump’s longtime confidant and former personal attorney, has resigned from his post as deputy finance chair of the Republican National Committee's Finance Committee, sources close to the RNC told ABC News.

...

Cohen also criticized the administration's policy of separating migrant children from their parents at the southern border, the first time he’s distanced himself from the president.

"As the son of a Polish holocaust survivor, the images and sounds of this family separation policy is heart wrenching,” Cohen wrote. “While I strongly support measures that will secure our porous borders, children should never be used as bargaining chips."

Somebody doesn't seem to be on the Trump Train any longer...

[*bfine32*]

I found this to be a good read on the situation at the border.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/patrolling-border-immigrants-wait-caught-191333121.html

Quote:Approaching the Mexican-American border near McAllen, Texas, the border my own parents crossed before I was born, I wondered what I would see — and feel. By reputation, it is a scary place, where gangs dump the bodies of victims, migrants die of hunger and thirst, and gruff border agents pull young children from their parents’ arms.

Driving the gravel road that paralleled the border fence, I saw a plastic garbage bag on the roadside. Flies buzzed around it and vultures circled above. Imagining the worst, I called the local police, who asked me to stand by and wait for the officers. It was dark by the time they arrived, nearly an hour later. Inside the bag was a dead dog. I felt an odd sense of relief. The border wasn’t the hellish nightmare that some make it seem, at least not today.

The next morning, I met up with Carlos Ruiz, a Border Patrol agent who would be escorting me for the day. He showed me the area he patrolled, a few miles southeast of McAllen, near Hidalgo. We looked for “sign” — evidence such as footprints, disturbed grass, or discarded items that suggest immigrants have been passing through. Then came a call from one of the agents monitoring the remote cameras at headquarters. A man wearing khaki pants and a blue shirt had been spotted in the area. Meeting up with another agent we searched the area near the river but didn’t find anyone. Another call came: seven or eight immigrants had been seen near the water tower at Mission, a town a few miles from McAllen. As we pulled up and got out of the car we saw a search helicopter flying low, just above the power lines. It left shortly after to refuel. Carlos and I walked into the brush to search. We saw nothing. The migrants were considered escaped and we moved on.
Footprints that have broken dry dirt in a field near McAllen, Texas
Footprints that have broken dry dirt in a field near McAllen, Texas. (Photos: Sergio Flores for Yahoo News)

We headed down the road. Suddenly Carlos pointed to a group of around a dozen migrants walking towards us. I froze for a second, expecting them to panic, run or hide. Instead, they stopped and sat down near the road. Carlos got out of the car and gave them a friendly greeting: 12 people, mostly parents with children and one unaccompanied minor, all from Guatemala or Honduras. Carlos and another agent began the intake process. They collected documents and began creating ID tags. One man had a manila envelope with what looked like an X-ray peeking out. I had noticed the indentation on his head. He showed me what was in the envelope: an X-ray of his skull. I asked him to hold it up so I could photograph it. As I took the picture, all I could think about was how he made it 2,000 miles with this X-ray.
An illegal immigrant holds his x-ray while being detained south of McAllen, Texas on Tuesday, June 5, 2018. The man had suffered a head injury leaving an indentation on his forehead and came to America seeking a medical treatment. (Photo: Sergio Flores for Yahoo News)
An illegal immigrant holds his X-ray while being detained south of McAllen, Texas. The man had suffered a head injury and came to the U.S. seeking treatment. (Photo: Sergio Flores for Yahoo News)

The radio crackled with an alert: More migrants were headed our way.

As they approached, I noticed a boy — the youngest one I had seen so far — being carried on his father’s shoulders. He was wearing a red hoodie to protect him from the sun. They sat down near the other group and waited to have their information taken. The father of the young boy pulled out a Gatorade bottle filled with some dark liquid and began drinking. The little boy reached for it thirstily. Another migrant was drinking a Coke. Carlos admonished them: They should drink water in the 103 degree heat. Another agent, Roy Ramirez, walked off hand in hand with the boy to get water from his truck. I was struck by his gentleness.
Border Patrol agent Roy Ramirez with immigrant boy
Border Patrol agent Roy Ramirez takes a boy to get water after being detained near McAllen, Texas. (Photo: Sergio Flores for Yahoo News)

A van pulled up to begin transporting some of the 22 people waiting on the road to be processed at the Border Patrol center in McAllen. We drove ahead on the road and I noticed more people in the distance. “What did I tell you?” Carlos said as he rolled down the window and instructed the group to sit.

“Are those kids?” I asked. It was a group of teenagers, traveling without adults. The youngest was 14. There were two 15-year-olds and a 17-year-old girl. Carlos said they were far from the youngest he had encountered. None of them had any identification of any kind. I knelt down in front of them and took a close-up. I wondered where their parents were, or if they had parents, or if I could have ever made it 2,000 miles on my own to a new country. After a few minutes another group walked up bringing the total to 34. “You woke the sleeping giant,” Roy joked to Carlos. This group also included children, as young as 3. After everyone was accounted for and given water, they were taken away.
A group of unaccompanied minors after being detained by Border Patrol
A group of unaccompanied minors shortly after being detained by Border Patrol south of McAllen, Texas. (Photo: Sergio Flores for Yahoo News)

Carlos took me back to my car and I drove back to Austin.

I don’t know what happened to the immigrants I saw that day. I only know what I saw: an understaffed Border Patrol doing its job, humanely, treating the people they encountered with dignity. I know that sometimes drugs are found, and that people get hurt, and that bad people come across the border. But I hope there will be more days like the one I spent with Carlos and Roy near McAllen, Texas.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2018, 03:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I found this to be a good read on the situation at the border.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/patrolling-border-immigrants-wait-caught-191333121.html

I think the last point, about them being understaffed (and I would include lacking resources) is key. It's why I talk about appropriating more resources down there. I will say that much like any group of people, there are good people and bad people doing the job. I've read ethnographic research on border crossers and the type of thing they encounter, not just on our side of the border but on the Mexican side as well.

There is so much going on in the border area that we don't know about or don't understand. I wish we could do more to tell more of the story, from multiple points of view, so people could be more cognizant of the impact of these policies.