Vaccine Mandates: Biden & Dems Hypocrites?

[BFritz21]

Biden and other Democrats wanted to make vaccines required, but isn't that hypocritical and against their entire philosophy, including their abortion stance, because "my body, my choice"?

[*Nately120*]

Biden and democrats keep harping on the vaccine because they know it'll cause republicans to refuse to get it, which will then reduce the number of republicans to vote against them.

[CJD]

(01-20-2022, 06:47 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Biden and other Democrats wanted to make vaccines required, but isn't that hypocritical and against their entire philosophy, including their abortion stance, because "my body, my choice"?

What you don't understand is that the Democrats' pro abortion stance has nothing to do with my body my choice. It's all about harvesting those yummy, baby carcasses for use in satanic rituals and blood oaths.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

[Benton]

And republicans scream "freedom"!

Meanwhile, people dead and businesses having to impose mask mandates and hand washing stations

Maybe we should put politics aside and listen to science? Maybe? Mayyyyybe?

[BFritz21]

So nobody is going to answer the question?

[*Nately120*]

(01-20-2022, 10:54 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So nobody is going to answer the question?

I guess the simple answer is that abortions arent as contagious as a viral epidemic a significant portion of the population refuses to acknowledge.

[BFritz21]

(01-20-2022, 11:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I guess the simple answer is that abortions arent as contagious as a viral epidemic a significant portion of the population refuses to acknowledge.

So it's "my body, my choice," as long as there's not more women getting abortions?

People can still get Covid after vaccination but no baby lives after an abortion.

[basballguy]

(01-20-2022, 10:34 PM)Benton Wrote: And republicans scream "freedom"!

Meanwhile, people dead and businesses having to impose mask mandates and hand washing stations

Maybe we should put politics aside and listen to science? Maybe? Mayyyyybe?

Science is meant to be challenged and is forever evolving.  "Listen to science" is a retort of the uninformed (i use this word as it's the most polite).  

*The FDA once said Vioxx was ok in 1999 and had was removed from circulation just 5 years later because of how dangerous it was
*We've all heard about how doctors promoted smoking a long time ago
*Dentists now even say they were wrong about flossing

I'm sure there are hundreds of examples....remember when we were supposed to breath into an unresponsive persons mouth during CPR?  "Science" evolves. 

Blindly following rules because "science" told you to is unwise.  You should not knock people for questioning motives and effectiveness of vaccines when many have been misinformed for a hundred years by these same doctors.   

[Belsnickel]

(01-20-2022, 10:54 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So nobody is going to answer the question?

You don't really want an answer. You post these threads in bad faith.

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2022, 12:21 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: So it's "my body, my choice," as long as there's not more women getting abortions?

People can still get Covid after vaccination but no baby lives after an abortion.

You're the one asking the difference between an abortion and a communicable disease, I'm just trying to make some sense of it. 

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2022, 02:23 AM)basballguy Wrote: Science is meant to be challenged and is forever evolving.  "Listen to science" is a retort of the uninformed (i use this word as it's the most polite).  

*The FDA once said Vioxx was ok in 1999 and had was removed from circulation just 5 years later because of how dangerous it was
*We've all heard about how doctors promoted smoking a long time ago
*Dentists now even say they were wrong about flossing

I'm sure there are hundreds of examples....remember when we were supposed to breath into an unresponsive persons mouth during CPR?  "Science" evolves. 

Blindly following rules because "science" told you to is unwise.  You should not knock people for questioning motives and effectiveness of vaccines when many have been misinformed for a hundred years by these same doctors.   

I support people questioning science.  What I find bitterly amusing are people who smugly question science on one specific aspect while trusting Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson. 

It's rather self serving.  Like me suddenly caring about the treatment of impoverished Africans only when I'm at a jewelry store trying convince my fiance it isn't the price of the diamond that is the problem. 

[Au165]

(01-21-2022, 02:23 AM)basballguy Wrote: Science is meant to be challenged and is forever evolving.  "Listen to science" is a retort of the uninformed (i use this word as it's the most polite).  

*The FDA once said Vioxx was ok in 1999 and had was removed from circulation just 5 years later because of how dangerous it was
*We've all heard about how doctors promoted smoking a long time ago
*Dentists now even say they were wrong about flossing

I'm sure there are hundreds of examples....remember when we were supposed to breath into an unresponsive persons mouth during CPR?  "Science" evolves. 

Blindly following rules because "science" told you to is unwise.  You should not knock people for questioning motives and effectiveness of vaccines when many have been misinformed for a hundred years by these same doctors.   

Your CPR point is actually a perfect example why you and many others aren't really qualified to question the science or speak on it, which is really the larger issue in all of this. While science does evolve and change, the vaccine pushback is based on pseudo science bullshit and misunderstandings of the science behind the vaccine as a whole. About a decade ago guidelines came out for compression only CPR which created a bit of misunderstanding and misinformation about the effectiveness and use of rescue breaths. 

There were a couple issues with standard CPR that were causing people not to perform CPR at all. One of the main issues was that people didn't want to actually put there mouths on other people, even as they died. The other issue was that people didn't know what to do and thought they could hurt the victim worse by messing up all the steps. Studies showed that in many cases you could get away with hands only CPR and be about as effective for the patient if it occurred within the first few minutes. This was what drove ADDING hands only CPR as a way to perform CPR because it eliminated barriers and would hopefully prompt more people to help strangers. That said, you are still supposed to provide rescue breaths and compressions in multiple cases including people who were drowning, overdosed, have been without oxygen for a while or are children.

[basballguy]

(01-21-2022, 08:26 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I support people questioning science.  What I find bitterly amusing are people who smugly question science on one specific aspect while trusting Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson. 

It's rather self serving.  Like me suddenly caring about the treatment of impoverished Africans only when I'm at a jewelry store trying convince my fiance it isn't the price of the diamond that is the problem. 

I don't know who Alex Jones is.  I'm guessing he's a news guy since you mentioned him in the same sentence as the Fox guy.  I don't watch either of them (or any news personality for that matter) but I'm sure if we got down to the nuts and bolts its not them manifesting the arguments, but they are regurgitating what an "expert" said.  Anyone and everyone can find an expert to fit their agenda.  

(01-21-2022, 09:41 AM)Au165 Wrote: Your CPR point is actually a perfect example why you and many others aren't really qualified to question the science or speak on it, which is really the larger issue in all of this. While science does evolve and change, the vaccine pushback is based on pseudo science bullshit and misunderstandings of the science behind the vaccine as a whole. About a decade ago guidelines came out for compression only CPR which created a bit of misunderstanding and misinformation about the effectiveness and use of rescue breaths. 

There were a couple issues with standard CPR that were causing people not to perform CPR at all. One of the main issues was that people didn't want to actually put there mouths on other people, even as they died. The other issue was that people didn't know what to do and thought they could hurt the victim worse by messing up all the steps. Studies showed that in many cases you could get away with hands only CPR and be about as effective for the patient if it occurred within the first few minutes. This was what drove ADDING hands only CPR as a way to perform CPR because it eliminated barriers and would hopefully prompt more people to help strangers. That said, you are still supposed to provide rescue breaths and compressions in multiple cases including people who were drowning, overdosed, have been without oxygen for a while or are children.

(01-21-2022, 09:41 AM)Au165 Wrote: Your CPR point is actually a perfect example why you and many others aren't really qualified to question the science or speak on it, which is really the larger issue in all of this. While science does evolve and change, the vaccine push back is based on pseudo science bullshit and misunderstandings of the science behind the vaccine as a whole. About a decade ago guidelines came out for compression only CPR which created a bit of misunderstanding and misinformation about the effectiveness and use of rescue breaths. 

There were a couple issues with standard CPR that were causing people not to perform CPR at all. One of the main issues was that people didn't want to actually put there mouths on other people, even as they died. The other issue was that people didn't know what to do and thought they could hurt the victim worse by messing up all the steps. Studies showed that in many cases you could get away with hands only CPR and be about as effective for the patient if it occurred within the first few minutes. This was what drove ADDING hands only CPR as a way to perform CPR because it eliminated barriers and would hopefully prompt more people to help strangers. That said, you are still supposed to provide rescue breaths and compressions in multiple cases including people who were drowning, overdosed, have been without oxygen for a while or are children.

This is wonderful information!  Thanks for sharing.  

However, the fact that you chose to focus on this instead of the real valid point I was attempting to make really saddens me.  I'm not a scientist or a doctor but that doesn't make the point any less valid.  

All i'm saying is for people to be attacked because another science person disagrees with the popular science opinion is obnoxious and there are plenty of examples where "science" has been wrong.  

To be clear, I'm not saying whether vaccines work or not.  I'm saying we shouldn't be shocked people question the "science" after all these years and to stop being condescending pricks to people because they do.  

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2022, 11:33 AM)basballguy Wrote: I don't know who Alex Jones is.  I'm guessing he's a news guy since you mentioned him in the same sentence as the Fox guy.  I don't watch either of them (or any news personality for that matter) but I'm sure if we got down to the nuts and bolts its not them manifesting the arguments, but they are regurgitating what an "expert" said.  Anyone and everyone can find an expert to fit their agenda.  

I'm not talking specifically about you.  I'm saying that it is interesting how questioning science for many has recently come up and it is specifically geared towards questioning covid and vaccines...it's all a bit convenient and seems rather short-sighted and self-serving.

I know a woman who believes covid is a government conspiracy and doctors are being paid/threatened to kill the unvaccinated, and big pharma is in on it, and the vaccine is either useless or will kill you and blah blah blah.  This same woman had a knee replacement about a year ago.  She didn't accuse the orthopedic surgeon of trying to kill her, she didn't say that her knee was fine and the big artificial knee lobby was behind it all, she didn't accuse the artificial knee of having a tracking chip in it, she didn't refuse medication for the pain, she didn't refuse to use a walker for a month afterwards and so on.  She also "questions" vaccines but is exceedingly accepting and trusting of monoclonal antibodies and other treatments that I'd say were sanctioned by her political party.

Question science....yes.  Be inordinately and uneducatedly dismissive of one specific aspect of science you've been specifically primed to distrust?  Meh...that is hardly the type of thinking I'm going to applaud.  There is a difference between actual research methodology and serving your own biased ego.

tl;dr - Questioning science isn't the same thing as choosing to not believe what doesn't fit your viewpoint.  Now if you'll excuse me, I need to explain to my mechanic who thinks masks make covid worse why brake fluid actually makes my car's brakes worse and my car should pass inspection because I'm sick of paying to get it fixed, I wish I lived in Ohio!

[BFritz21]

(01-21-2022, 07:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You don't really want an answer. You post these threads in bad faith.

No. 

I really want an answer and no one has provided one yet, which kind of gives the answer.

(01-21-2022, 07:47 AM)Nately120 Wrote: You're the one asking the difference between an abortion and a communicable disease, I'm just trying to make some sense of it. 

Not at all. 

Once again, you're using that to avoid answering the question. It's not about the disease, it's about controlling a person's body.

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2022, 11:57 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Not at all. 

Once again, you're using that to avoid answering the question. It's not about the disease, it's about controlling a person's body.

Why are you asking a question if you already have an answer you won't evaluate?

(01-21-2022, 07:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You don't really want an answer. You post these threads in bad faith.

Oh, that explains it.

[Au165]

(01-21-2022, 11:33 AM)basballguy Wrote: This is wonderful information!  Thanks for sharing.  

However, the fact that you chose to focus on this instead of the real valid point I was attempting to make really saddens me.  I'm not a scientist or a doctor but that doesn't make the point any less valid.  

All i'm saying is for people to be attacked because another science person disagrees with the popular science opinion is obnoxious and there are plenty of examples where "science" has been wrong.  

To be clear, I'm not saying whether vaccines work or not.  I'm saying we shouldn't be shocked people question the "science" after all these years and to stop being condescending pricks to people because they do.  

It's actually very valid to your overall point. The issue is in your post you spread misinformation as a fact, not intentionally which also has a role here. You may have potentially cast doubt for someone else if they ever were faced with a situation they needed to perform CPR because they read it on the internet we don't do rescue breaths anymore. While this seems benign it is what has happened with vaccines, and frankly a lot of things in society. Much of the distrust has been generated by people who spread unsourced, or bad, information which makes the distrust itself unfounded.

Science uses the peer review and the idea that the majority opinion on something after being peer reviewed is the best practice. Science never claims to be perfect but we trust in the idea that enough people review something that it's the best information in this moment. What we have found recently with the "counter science" is people are seeking out "science" that simply agrees with what they want it to be, similar to politics. You will always find someone, no matter the field science included, that is a contrarian who will choose the other side simply because everyone else thinks one way and they want top disrupt conventional beliefs. Allowing those outliers to shape any sort of public health policy is asinine.

I'll kind of finish with this, I know many doctors and nurses because of my family. The common thread of everyone who shows up in the hospital unvaccinated who is on their death bed from COVID is "do whatever you have to in order to save me". They want every experimental, off label, etc treatment there is...no one ever asks about the science behind it. All of these snake oil "cures" that have come up throughout the pandemic, nobody asks about the peer review process or strict testing standards behind those when prefering them to the vaccine. We KNOW right now that the vaccine is the best way to keep people alive today and we will use it now, and if there are consequences for it in the future we will do what we always do and use science to figure out those issues.

Also...Vaccines work that is not debatable. Just wanted to throw that back in here for anyone reading.

[basballguy]

(01-21-2022, 11:49 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not talking specifically about you.  I'm saying that it is interesting how questioning science for many has recently come up and it is specifically geared towards questioning covid and vaccines...it's all a bit convenient and seems rather short-sighted and self-serving.

I know a woman who believes covid is a government conspiracy and doctors are being paid/threatened to kill the unvaccinated, and big pharma is in on it, and the vaccine is either useless or will kill you and blah blah blah.  This same woman had a knee replacement about a year ago.  She didn't accuse the orthopedic surgeon of trying to kill her, she didn't say that her knee was fine and the big artificial knee lobby was behind it all, she didn't accuse the artificial knee of having a tracking chip in it, she didn't refuse medication for the pain, she didn't refuse to use a walker for a month afterwards and so on.  She also "questions" vaccines but is exceedingly accepting and trusting of monoclonal antibodies and other treatments that I'd say were sanctioned by her political party.

Question science....yes.  Be inordinately and uneducatedly dismissive of one specific aspect of science you've been specifically primed to distrust?  Meh...that is hardly the type of thinking I'm going to applaud.  There is a difference between actual research methodology and serving your own biased ego.

tl;dr - Questioning science isn't the same thing as choosing to not believe what doesn't fit your viewpoint.  Now if you'll excuse me, I need to explain to my mechanic who thinks masks make covid worse why brake fluid actually makes my car's brakes worse and my car should pass inspection because I'm sick of paying to get it fixed, I wish I lived in Ohio!

I think questioning vaccines always been a thing...it just hadn't been magnified until Covid.  Not too long ago, society was accepting (with an eye roll) of people who didn't vaccinate their kids.  

I like the way you said it though.  People are "primed" or conditioned to believe a certain thing and they'll latch onto anything that supports their beliefs (see reddit).  Though, I've never met anyone who believed there were tracking chips or 5G spread covid, or you could drink bleach or whatever and cure covid....sometimes i wonder if it's just a handful of people where the media blows it up and makes it seem like it's 10s of millions.   

Nonetheless, everyone is just psychotic about it all the way around.  I have a friend that just rages against people if they aren't prudent about masks and vaccinations but then will be like "hey are you cold?  Let me put a drop of this fun smelling peppermint juice on the back of your neck and you'll instantly be warm!"  There probably is no science for this (I don't know).  

It's all hypocrisy.  People can believe what they want to believe..i'm not going to judge them differently because their opinion doesn't match mine and the science that validates their belief is suspect to me.  

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2022, 12:19 PM)basballguy Wrote: It's all hypocrisy.  People can believe what they want to believe..i'm not going to judge them differently because their opinion doesn't match mine and the science that validates their belief is suspect to me.  

I fully admit that I judge people based upon their opinions, but I also admit that my own perception of reality is certainly flawed and I'm just a dumbass human being.  My cousin is married to a woman who believes that McDonald's food is made of processed human corpses...I can't respect that, no matter how much I want to distrust that evil clown.

[Au165]

(01-21-2022, 12:19 PM)basballguy Wrote: It's all hypocrisy.  People can believe what they want to believe..i'm not going to judge them differently because their opinion doesn't match mine and the science that validates their belief is suspect to me.  

No, that isn't how science works, this is exactly why we are in this mess. Science isn't an opinion that you have and others should respect. Science is the commonly held belief by the majority of QUALIFIED people in that field. There is no "science" that matches beliefs there is accepted science and not accepted science. If I walk around telling people the earth is flat and can find a couple other dumb  scientists that also believe such a thing that does not make my point valid in any way. Those people should be told they are wrong and their belief is wrong, not coddled and be told they are welcome to their own "belief".