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(06-23-2017, 10:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: Atkins was drafted that low due to size concerns, not talent or drive. I will say Hayes was one of our better position coaches. The point is, Boling was better than his draft position coming out of college indicates....so was Atkins....so is Dalvin Cook....so is Joe Mixon. Injury concerns, character concerns, physical concerns, and scheme fit concerns often drop players on draft day versus where the talent level actually is. Exhibit A.....I give you Vontaze Burfict.
Clint Boling was already a good and polished player when he got here, he wasn't magically coached to this level. The game has passed Alexander by, and he really shouldn't have been here to begin with, coming off of a staff that produced the second worst decade in all of professional sports history. Where's the accountability?
1. You have no idea how Cook mor Mixon will fare in the NFL. One or both of them could be complete busts.
2. No matter how great you claim Boling was at the time of the draft the fact is that every team in the league is looking for good players and every team except the Bengals passed on him. So the Bengals have to get some credit for either better scouting or better coaching. What were the guge red flags that dropped such a highly rated player to the fourth round. You compare him to Mixon, Cook, and Burfict, but I know exactly why they dropped. Please tell me what Boling did that scared away every other team in the league.
3. That '90's coaching staff also included Hall of Fame DC Dick LeBeau. You can not claim that every coach on that staff was bad. Do you think Joe Thomas is a terrible player because he has always been on the Browns?
The Bengals have gotten far more production from Boling than any other team has gotten from any other OG taken in the fourth round or later since 2010. I find it incredible that no one here is willing to give any of the Bengal coaches any credit for that. Isn't this supposed to be a message board for Bengal fans?
I know fred from Go-Bengals.com. At first I did not believe him when he told me what it was like over here. But it looks like he was correct.
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(06-23-2017, 11:31 AM)Dr. Bombay Wrote: 1. You have no idea how Cook mor Mixon will fare in the NFL. One or both of them could be complete busts.
2. No matter how great you claim Boling was at the time of the draft the fact is that every team in the league is looking for good players and every team except the Bengals passed on him. So the Bengals have to get some credit for either better scouting or better coaching. What were the guge red flags that dropped such a highly rated player to the fourth round. You compare him to Mixon, Cook, and Burfict, but I know exactly why they dropped. Please tell me what Boling did that scared away every other team in the league.
3. That '90's coaching staff also included Hall of Fame DC Dick LeBeau. You can not claim that every coach on that staff was bad. Do you think Joe Thomas is a terrible player because he has always been on the Browns?
The Bengals have gotten far more production from Boling than any other team has gotten from any other OG taken in the fourth round or later since 2010. I find it incredible that no one here is willing to give any of the Bengal coaches any credit for that. Isn't this supposed to be a message board for Bengal fans?
I know fred from Go-Bengals.com. At first I did not believe him when he told me what it was like over here. But it looks like he was correct.
LMAO....you ARE fred. 
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(06-23-2017, 01:12 AM)Dr. Bombay Wrote: No he didn't. He was drafted in the fourth round so that is where he was ranked by NFL teams. It is like claiming that Andy Dalton is rated as a Super Bowl champion QB even though he has never won a Super Bowl.
You have to give the Bengals credit for either a good job scouting or a good job coaching with Boling.
You are Fred. 
Taking one sentence out of my post and arguing for PA once again...
These guys are correct and you are wrong Fred.
Careful not getting your ass banned again...
(06-23-2017, 08:59 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yes he did......fred's alt. I've linked you the scouting reports numerous times that had him graded as high as the second round prior to the draft.
I guess all NFL teams were right on Geno Atkins, and this Mixon dude must not be as good as hyped on here, huh. 
Read those same reports years ago Wyche.  Fred's argument is flawed once again.
Boling was polished in his technique coming out of college and could both pass and run block well.
PA needs this or his players suck like Livings, Gutcheck and Bodine. Same could be said of Ogbuehi so far who is pure athleticism.
(06-23-2017, 09:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Exactly. Ranked talent doesn't always translate to round selected based on team needs, schemes, etc.
You know it brother.
(06-23-2017, 10:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: Atkins was drafted that low due to size concerns, not talent or drive. I will say Hayes was one of our better position coaches. The point is, Boling was better than his draft position coming out of college indicates....so was Atkins....so is Dalvin Cook....so is Joe Mixon. Injury concerns, character concerns, physical concerns, and scheme fit concerns often drop players on draft day versus where the talent level actually is. Exhibit A.....I give you Vontaze Burfict.
Clint Boling was already a good and polished player when he got here, he wasn't magically coached to this level. The game has passed Alexander by, and he really shouldn't have been here to begin with, coming off of a staff that produced the second worst decade in all of professional sports history. Where's the accountability?
Spot on Wyche, major reps.
Don't tell me teams wouldn't of taken Atkins or Burfict in the top ten of the first round if they knew how good they would become.
Whitworth, Zeitler and Boling were polished when they got here, hence why they played well. PA needs this.
We need an O-line coach that can coach up his Lineman.
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(06-23-2017, 10:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: Atkins was drafted that low due to size concerns, not talent or drive. I will say Hayes was one of our better position coaches. The point is, Boling was better than his draft position coming out of college indicates....so was Atkins....so is Dalvin Cook....so is Joe Mixon. Injury concerns, character concerns, physical concerns, and scheme fit concerns often drop players on draft day versus where the talent level actually is. Exhibit A.....I give you Vontaze Burfict.
Clint Boling was already a good and polished player when he got here, he wasn't magically coached to this level. The game has passed Alexander by, and he really shouldn't have been here to begin with, coming off of a staff that produced the second worst decade in all of professional sports history. Where's the accountability?
I'm not going to say that the game has passed Alexander by. Too many people in the league think too highly of him. I think it's interesting that Joe Walter does not approve of the training our O-linemen are getting, but he was coached up by Jim McNally and may be biased.
I was listening to the Ross Tucker podcast and he was talking about how when he was playing (for either Washington or Buffalo) that McNally was insisting on having him handle an overpowering DL that he was to stick to the technique he had been taught, and his tackle was telling him to just cut block the guy. McNally insisted on him using the prescribed technique and it was not until he started following his tackle's advice that the guy was brought under control.
My point is that the best guys make mistakes. And there have been mitigating factors in the failure of Og and Fisher. And the best guys just get it wrong. But Alexander has done well with Boling, Anderson, L. Jones and R. Braham. His most notable failure was Ghiaciuc.
Boling was evaluated all over the place - from the 4th round to the end of the 2nd round (Huddle Report). AJ Green told us we had gotten a steal in the 4th round. Drew Boylhart said he could have been a high pick if he was put at his correct position (his opinion) - tackle.
Atkins did not get a lot of playing time at Georgia. Boylhart speculated that it may have been an attitude issue for Geno (obviously not), but whatever he did not get a lot of snaps there. When he did (at DT) he dominated.
And the Bengals took their sweet time picking him themselves.
I started watching Amazon's documentary on the Cardinal's 2015 season. They desperately wanted Ameer Abdullah - who ended up going to the Lions. They ended up picking up David Johnson in the 3rd round as a consolation prize and ended up with the better back.
Getting good players and the timing of things like injuries - and just plain luck figure strongly into how things turn out for players and teams. Coaches, teams and players probably get more blame and credit than they deserve.
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(06-23-2017, 03:18 PM)3wt Wrote: I'm not going to say that the game has passed Alexander by. Too many people in the league think too highly of him. I think it's interesting that Joe Walter does not approve of the training our O-linemen are getting, but he was coached up by Jim McNally and may be biased.
I was listening to the Ross Tucker podcast and he was talking about how when he was playing (for either Washington or Buffalo) that McNally was insisting on having him handle an overpowering DL that he was to stick to the technique he was talk and his tackle was telling him to just cut block the guy. McNally insisted on him using the prescribed technique and it was not until he started following his tackle's advice that the guy was brought under control.
My point is that the best guys make mistakes. And there have been mitigating factors in the failure of Og and Fisher. And the best guys just get it wrong. But Alexander has done well with Boling, Anderson, L. Jones and R. Braham. His most notable failure was Ghiaciuc.
Boling was evaluated all over the place - from the 4th round to the end of the 2nd round (Huddle Report). AJ Green told us we had gotten a steal in the 4th round. Drew Boylhart said he could have been a high pick if he was put at his correct position (his opinion) - tackle.
Atkins did not get a lot of playing time at Georgia. Boylhart speculated that it may have been an attitude issue for Geno (obviously not), but whatever he did not get a lot of snaps there. When he did (at DT) he dominated.
And the Bengals took their sweet time picking him themselves.
I started watching Amazon's documentary on the Cardinal's 2015 season. They desperately wanted Ameer Abdullah - who ended up going to the Lions. They ended up picking up David Johnson in the 3rd round as a consolation prize and ended up with the better back.
Getting good players and the timing of things like injuries - and just plain luck figure strongly into how things turn out for players and teams. Coaches, teams and players probably get more blame and credit than they deserve.
Very well thought out post. I don't know if he still does but in 2015 McNally was used as a consultant to the O-line.
I don't find it a coincidence that the line blocked well that season. PA is decent at coaching up pass protection but that sure
did not show last year with his coveted 1st round pick. Plus it has been shown over the recent years his guys are bad run
blockers, this cannot and should not be ignored.
The sooner we move on from Paul Alexander and get some fresh blood the better IMHO.
But you make some great points. 
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(06-23-2017, 09:26 AM)Wyche Wrote: Precisely.....Boling's main trouble in the draft was he was regarded as a tweener, if I remember correctly. It seems teams weren't sure where he would fit.
As to Boling's draft place....
(06-23-2017, 03:18 PM)3wt Wrote: I'm not going to say that the game has passed Alexander by. Too many people in the league think too highly of him. I think it's interesting that Joe Walter does not approve of the training our O-linemen are getting, but he was coached up by Jim McNally and may be biased.
I was listening to the Ross Tucker podcast and he was talking about how when he was playing (for either Washington or Buffalo) that McNally was insisting on having him handle an overpowering DL that he was to stick to the technique he was talk and his tackle was telling him to just cut block the guy. McNally insisted on him using the prescribed technique and it was not until he started following his tackle's advice that the guy was brought under control.
My point is that the best guys make mistakes. And there have been mitigating factors in the failure of Og and Fisher. And the best guys just get it wrong. But Alexander has done well with Boling, Anderson, L. Jones and R. Braham. His most notable failure was Ghiaciuc.
Boling was evaluated all over the place - from the 4th round to the end of the 2nd round (Huddle Report). AJ Green told us we had gotten a steal in the 4th round. Drew Boylhart said he could have been a high pick if he was put at his correct position (his opinion) - tackle.
Atkins did not get a lot of playing time at Georgia. Boylhart speculated that it may have been an attitude issue for Geno (obviously not), but whatever he did not get a lot of snaps there. When he did (at DT) he dominated.
And the Bengals took their sweet time picking him themselves.
I started watching Amazon's documentary on the Cardinal's 2015 season. They desperately wanted Ameer Abdullah - who ended up going to the Lions. They ended up picking up David Johnson in the 3rd round as a consolation prize and ended up with the better back.
Getting good players and the timing of things like injuries - and just plain luck figure strongly into how things turn out for players and teams. Coaches, teams and players probably get more blame and credit than they deserve.
Do they? I don't recall any offers to him to move on from the rest of the league.
We have had some good coaches here during Marvin's tenure, some credit has to go to him for seeking them out, some he was saddled with. Outside of Guenther and Simmons, I don't have much faith in this current staff, I hope they prove me wrong. I was never a big fan of Zampese, but I will reserve judgement on his prowess as an OC after last year because of a few injuries, and mainly due to the absolutely pathetic play of Alexander's hand selected players....Og, Bodine, and to a lesser extent, Fisher. Og and Fisher get somewhat of a pass due to experience, Bodine has been here, for what, four years? He still has problems snapping the ball from time to time, ffs.
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(06-23-2017, 03:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Very well thought out post. I don't know if he still does but in 2015 McNally was used as a consultant to the O-line.
I don't find it a coincidence that the line blocked well that season. PA is decent at coaching up pass protection but that sure
did not show last year with his coveted 1st round pick. Plus it has been shown over the recent years his guys are bad run
blockers, this cannot and should not be ignored.
The sooner we move on from Paul Alexander and get some fresh blood the better IMHO.
But you make some great points.
Yes, our run game has been near the back of the pack since Corey Dillon left...save for an anomaly here and there.
As to 3wt, he ALWAYS has great points and posts, even if I am not in total agreement with them. :andy:
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(06-23-2017, 03:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: As to Boling's draft place....
Do they? I don't recall any offers to him to move on from the rest of the league.
We have had some good coaches here during Marvin's tenure, some credit has to go to him for seeking them out, some he was saddled with. Outside of Guenther and Simmons, I don't have much faith in this current staff, I hope they prove me wrong. I was never a big fan of Zampese, but I will reserve judgement on his prowess as an OC after last year because of a few injuries, and mainly due to the absolutely pathetic play of Alexander's hand selected players....Og, Bodine, and to a lesser extent, Fisher. Og and Fisher get somewhat of a pass due to experience, Bodine has been here, for what, four years? He still has problems snapping the ball from time to time, ffs.
I also really like Urban our WR coach, but i am with you and hoping the likes of Haslett and Burney improve.
I bet they will with the new talent that just got brought in and i am pretty confident Coyle will be much better this year
with his guys in the Secondary. PA is definately the guy we need to replace the most and Zampese is still a question mark.
We will see.
(06-23-2017, 03:29 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yes, our run game has been near the back of the pack since Corey Dillon left...save for an anomaly here and there.
As to 3wt, he ALWAYS has great points and posts, even if I am not in total agreement with them. :andy:
For sure, i hope McNally is still here since 3wt brought up his name. Anybody know if he is still used as a consultant?
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(06-23-2017, 03:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: As to Boling's draft place....
Do they? I don't recall any offers to him to move on from the rest of the league.
We have had some good coaches here during Marvin's tenure, some credit has to go to him for seeking them out, some he was saddled with. Outside of Guenther and Simmons, I don't have much faith in this current staff, I hope they prove me wrong. I was never a big fan of Zampese, but I will reserve judgement on his prowess as an OC after last year because of a few injuries, and mainly due to the absolutely pathetic play of Alexander's hand selected players....Og, Bodine, and to a lesser extent, Fisher. Og and Fisher get somewhat of a pass due to experience, Bodine has been here, for what, four years? He still has problems snapping the ball from time to time, ffs.
Well I'm not going to be able to produce a link or even a specific example. I apologize Wyche. But I believe other coaches pretty routinely refer to him as one of the best OL coaches. But maybe that's just pregame fluff.
I was crushed when Hue left. I'll reserve judgment on Z. He's going to have to be able to make better adjustments this year. If Og and Fish play well, he'll have no excuse.
Bodine at least looked like an average player last year. But it sure as shooting took him long enough. I'm praying he makes another significant improvement this year - or that Dielman (sp?) looks good enough to supplant him in 2018.
Cheers!
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(06-23-2017, 03:48 PM)3wt Wrote: Well I'm not going to be able to produce a link or even a specific example. I apologize Wyche. But I believe other coaches pretty routinely refer to him as one of the best OL coaches. But maybe that's just pregame fluff.
I was crushed when Hue left. I'll reserve judgment on Z. He's going to have to be able to make better adjustments this year. If Og and Fish play well, he'll have no excuse.
Bodine at least looked like an average player last year. But it sure as shooting took him long enough. I'm praying he makes another significant improvement this year - or that Dielman (sp?) looks good enough to supplant him in 2018.
Cheers!
No apology needed good sir....my memory is hardly infallible!!! LOL. I was stating I legitimately don't recall any offers....there may have been some, I just don't have any recollection.
We really need Og and Fish to step it up. To their credit, they have worked their rear ends off this past offseason on their own to improve their game. That speaks volumes to their character and desire, but maybe a bit of lacking in the Bengals' own training/coaching department.
Yes, you are correct, Bodine did indeed at least play at an average level last season. No question. I should have been more clear in my point that he was hand selected by Paulie, and Paulie berated the press sticking up for him.....if you're that adamant about the player, coach his ass to be better!
Have a wonderful weekend my friend....
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(06-23-2017, 03:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I also really like Urban our WR coach, but i am with you and hoping the likes of Haslett and Burney improve.
I bet they will with the new talent that just got brought in and i am pretty confident Coyle will be much better this year
with his guys in the Secondary. PA is definately the guy we need to replace the most and Zampese is still a question mark.
We will see.
For sure, i hope McNally is still here since 3wt brought up his name. Anybody know if he is still used as a consultant?
Yeah, forgot about Urban....he has done a nice job as well.
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(06-23-2017, 03:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I hope McNally is still here since 3wt brought up his name. Anybody know if he is still used as a consultant?
I think that was a one time thing. And you seem to remember the results better than I do (I just don't recall)
While we're grousing, I get really frustrated when Munoz is up training the Browns when we could have him, Willie Anderson, Max Montoya, Joe Walter and probably Richie Braham here working with our guys. Willie has outright offered to help Og and says he believes he could get him fixed - and I'm pretty sure we could get the others to all contribute.
I have appreciated when Marvin has brought guys like Kevin Green and the old Pittsburgh center to help with our guys. It would be great to have a clinic with all those guys. If Alexander is concerned about mixed messages he could clarify with those guys up front before they begin working with the guys.
Even if Paul is the maestro each of those estimable former players is going to add their personal perspective to the mix. Given how well they played I can't help but feel our guys would end up with a substantive takeaway.
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(06-23-2017, 11:31 AM)Dr. Bombay Wrote: 1. You have no idea how Cook mor Mixon will fare in the NFL. One or both of them could be complete busts.
2. No matter how great you claim Boling was at the time of the draft the fact is that every team in the league is looking for good players and every team except the Bengals passed on him. So the Bengals have to get some credit for either better scouting or better coaching. What were the guge red flags that dropped such a highly rated player to the fourth round. You compare him to Mixon, Cook, and Burfict, but I know exactly why they dropped. Please tell me what Boling did that scared away every other team in the league.
3. That '90's coaching staff also included Hall of Fame DC Dick LeBeau. You can not claim that every coach on that staff was bad. Do you think Joe Thomas is a terrible player because he has always been on the Browns?
The Bengals have gotten far more production from Boling than any other team has gotten from any other OG taken in the fourth round or later since 2010. I find it incredible that no one here is willing to give any of the Bengal coaches any credit for that. Isn't this supposed to be a message board for Bengal fans?
I know fred from Go-Bengals.com. At first I did not believe him when he told me what it was like over here. But it looks like he was correct.
Did you even read the original post or did you just come on here looking to argue? Then you insult the board?
Do we have an emoji for someone's butt with a big blot of lipstick?
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(06-23-2017, 11:31 AM)Dr. Bombay Wrote: 1. You have no idea how Cook mor Mixon will fare in the NFL. One or both of them could be complete busts.
2. No matter how great you claim Boling was at the time of the draft the fact is that every team in the league is looking for good players and every team except the Bengals passed on him. So the Bengals have to get some credit for either better scouting or better coaching. What were the guge red flags that dropped such a highly rated player to the fourth round. You compare him to Mixon, Cook, and Burfict, but I know exactly why they dropped. Please tell me what Boling did that scared away every other team in the league.
3. That '90's coaching staff also included Hall of Fame DC Dick LeBeau. You can not claim that every coach on that staff was bad. Do you think Joe Thomas is a terrible player because he has always been on the Browns?
The Bengals have gotten far more production from Boling than any other team has gotten from any other OG taken in the fourth round or later since 2010. I find it incredible that no one here is willing to give any of the Bengal coaches any credit for that. Isn't this supposed to be a message board for Bengal fans?
I know fred from Go-Bengals.com. At first I did not believe him when he told me what it was like over here. But it looks like he was correct.
Hmm, this posters rhetoric, style of argumentation and sentence structure look strangely familiar, ike I've seen it before. Wonder who it could be? Can't, quite, put my finger on it... 
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
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(06-24-2017, 09:53 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, this posters rhetoric, style of argumentation and sentence structure look strangely familiar, ike I've seen it before. Wonder who it could be? Can't, quite, put my finger on it...
((((( BANHAMMER TWIRLING ))))))
I'm sorry, I know its juvenile, but I find the word "Banhammer" hysterical.
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(06-23-2017, 03:29 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yes, our run game has been near the back of the pack since Corey Dillon left...save for an anomaly here and there.
As to 3wt, he ALWAYS has great points and posts, even if I am not in total agreement with them. :andy:
We will see how much the vertical speed of the Road Runner (Meep Meep!), Core, and Malone help the running game by drawing the safeties back from the LOS.
I am wagering that they are going to make a huge impact. I am also wagering a few $ on Dalton being league MVP. 100 to 1 odds? I'm in.
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Let's try to keep it on topic.
Hammerstripes Wrote:Deron Smith
He is one that went much later than expected (don't want to get into who does/does not deserve credit/blame for that). I do think he will have a hard time breaking into our Safety rotation; perhaps even cut material this season. Personally watching Darquese Dennard play; I'd love to see what he can do at Safety. He and Smith are virtually the same size.
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Not really obscure, but WJ3 is about to snag a starting spot midseason and not look back
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