With Merkel's Foes in Disarray, Germany Defies the Trump Trend

[GMDino]

(04-26-2017, 09:52 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I don't think the left necessarily supports radical islam, but the constant deflection definitely doesn't help.

Well, again, it comes back to saying "Believe what you want...don't force your beliefs on others".

Same goes for all religions in my book.

I certainly do no like some of the tenets of Christianity either.  But I can be more vocal about calling for change there as I was/am Christian.  Sort of.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-26-2017, 06:58 AM)GMDino Wrote: Yes.  You based it all on your own personal experience.

Nope, reading comprehension fail.

Quote:Everyone can read your complete rejection of multiple sources based essentially on your guy feelings about the answers given and some personal experience you or someone you know had.  Or you cite a single survey to make wild claims and insist that data is better than anything else because, well, you posted it and it agrees with you.

What wild claims did I make?

Quote:And while your usual,recent "style" of discussion has been to claim that "you didn't say that" and that anyone who disagrees "doesn't understand" what you said THIS time you are (and I hesitate to say it so as to not cause you to have a bad day) wrong.

Anytime you feel I've made this claim in error there is a simple remedy, post the proof.  Unlike your mentor I don't erase my posts.

Quote:I'd post a whole bunch of studies and data but its obvious that it will be rejected...so instead I'll gracefully depart from the discussion with you.  Don't have time for the childishness.

If you feel you have accurate data that contributes you should absolutely post it.  Even if I reject it, I'm not the only one reading your posts correct?  Maybe your a little obsessed?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-26-2017, 09:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Do you realize that you just posted a clip of a person from the left REJECTING all of the objectionable tenants of Islam.  When Mahr and Harris mention any of the bad tenants of Islam they are rejected.

Are you referring to Affleck?  If so then you didn't watch the same clip as me.  He was tripping over himself to excuse and exculpate the excesses of the religion or denying them altogether.  I see I was right in my comparison.

Quote:You are proving my point.  It will be impossible for you to post a clip of anyone from the left supporting the objectionable tenants of Islam. That is just a lie created by the right wing echo chamber.

Hahaha, I've addressed this ad naseum.  Find me a left leaning celebrity or politician who calls islam out for its daily excesses.  Find me one who clamors for the rights of women and homosexuals in the muslim world.  You'll find huge anti-Trump rallies due to his supposed misogyny.  I can't recall the same type of rally being held due to the daily misogyny of islam.  Trump may "grab them by the *****", in the muslim world they get acid thrown in their face or stoned to death.  I know which conduct I find more reprehensible.  Yet they don't seem to get the same attention, why?

Quote:And again I ask you what the option other than supporting Muslims freedom of religion.  If supporting freedom of religion for Muslims is wrong then what is the right thing to do?  If you criticize then you should provide an answer. How exactly should we be opposing Islam in the United States?  Close down all the mosques?  Make islam illegal?

Please find me one statement by me that stated islam should be banned in the United States.  Just one.  You've made this false flag claim several times, back it up or shelve it completely because it's getting old.  What I did say, multiple times, is that it is time to universally acknowledge the deeply flawed teachings of the faith and how they are acted upon daily by millions of people.  The left is terrified of criticizing anyone who isn't a white heterosexual male.  In so doing they give daily tacit approval to horrific acts of barbarism committed under the approving umbrella of a religion.  Wrong is wrong, condemn the treatment of women in islamic countries and do it with something close to the same fervor you reserve for Trump's defunding Planned Parenthood.  Condemn the horrific treatment of homosexuals in islamic countries.  People lost their shit over the report of gay concentration camps in Chechnya and rightfully so.  However, similar horrific acts occur on a daily basis in majority islam countries.


I get it, you don't have a problem with large percentages of a religion's adherents thinking it is ok to stone an adulteress woman.  Even in a liberal secular democracy.  You don't care about it so much you completely avoided even attempting to address it.  

(04-26-2017, 09:52 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I don't think the left necessarily supports radical islam, but the constant deflection definitely doesn't help.

It's not deflection, it's turning a blind eye to it.  The only excesses the left is comfortable addressing is that of the West.  It's moral cowardice at level red.  There's a reason that former friends are now enemies for me and vice versa; because I call out bullshit and wrongdoing regardless of who engages in it.  I have no partisan agenda, wrong is wrong.  Sadly, there doesn't seem to be enough of that around here.  There are a few, Belsnickel, Bpat, Hollodero, 'Zona (if I missed you I apologize).  Too many others are married to their agendas to the point where any criticism of something that falls within it is met with fierce counter attack rather than reasoned introspection.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-26-2017, 09:05 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't think Ben was prepared for Maher to be against him.  He just figured he'd call it racist or something, and Maher would back him up.  If he knew Maher would take the other side, then that was as ill-prepared a person I've seen in a while.  

Watch the Mos Def tape and cringe then.  You are correct though, Ben though he had a built in ally and got caught flat footed.  He looks so angry and defeated in that clip.  A shame, he could have actually listened and learned something.  Harris is the best spokesman for this cause we have left.  He doesn't have the charisma, eloquence or wit of Hitchens, but he does a damn good job regardless.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Here's an open question. When the Danish cartoon was posted why did almost no other outlet reproduce the picture in question? This was a major news story, you think people would want to know what was causing such a huge uproar, right? So, kindly explain why none of the major news networks would show it? At the same time maybe you can tackle why they censored Muhammad in South Park, a show that also features Jesus as a character in frequently irreverent fashion.

[*bfine32*]

(04-26-2017, 09:52 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I don't think the left necessarily supports radical islam, but the constant deflection definitely doesn't help.

This is the dynamic that I see and one that needs more focus. When the left talks about Christianity they tend to focus more on the negatives aspects: homophobic, racists, sexist, ect...; however, you never see those same monikers attached when they discuss Muslims. Both sides have their biases and if we could ever address them in a rational fashion we could perhaps one day make progress.

Unfortunately, it is a you versus me situation and it is not monopolized by this forum. I think I shared to debate my wife and I had about a year ago (I'm Jill Stein compared to her). We were discussing religion and our youngest son, who questions religion. She said she would rather he be an atheist than a Muslim; of course I disagreed with the point.

The "how to raise your kid"  crowd can stow it.

[GMDino]

(04-26-2017, 11:54 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This is the dynamic that I see and one that needs more focus. When the left talks about Christianity they tend to focus more on the negatives aspects: homophobic, racists, sexist, ect...; however, you never see those same monikers attached when they discuss Muslims. Both sides have their biases and if we could ever address them in a rational fashion we could perhaps one day make progress.

Unfortunately, it is a you versus me situation and it is not monopolized by this forum. I think I shared to debate my wife and I had about a year ago (I'm Jill Stein compared to her). We were discussing religion and our youngest son, who questions religion. She said she would rather he be an atheist than a Muslim; of course I disagreed with the point.

The "how to raise your kid"  crowd can stow it.

The other dynamic is when the right talks about Islam they focus on the radicals and when the talk about Christianity they focus on the good.

Most of the discussions on this board (and elsewhere) are about Muslims as terrorists and Islam as not being the "religion of peace".  Not about gays and women.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-26-2017, 12:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: The other dynamic is when the right talks about Islam they focus on the radicals and when the talk about Christianity they focus on the good.

Most of the discussions on this board (and elsewhere) are about Muslims as terrorists and Islam as not being the "religion of peace".  Not about gays and women.

On the one clip, the Harris guy said 90% of Egyptians believe that death is appropriate for people who leave the religion.  If that's true, then it's hardly a peaceful religion.  There were no Mormon hit squads because of "The Book of Mormon".  

[GMDino]

(04-26-2017, 12:21 PM)michaelsean Wrote: On the one clip, the Harris guy said 90% of Egyptians believe that death is appropriate for people who leave the religion.  If that's true, then it's hardly a peaceful religion.  There were no Mormon hit squads because of "The Book of Mormon".  

And rather than dispute your stat I'll expand on it.

https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Muslims-think-that-ex-Muslims-deserve-death-for-leaving-Islam

[*bfine32*]

(04-26-2017, 12:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: The other dynamic is when the right talks about Islam they focus on the radicals and when the talk about Christianity they focus on the good.

Most of the discussions on this board (and elsewhere) are about Muslims as terrorists and Islam as not being the "religion of peace".  Not about gays and women.

As I said: We all have our biases. I am willing to bet I have interacted with more Muslims than anyone in this forum and I can tell you "religion of peace" is not how I would describe it. This is not to say all Muslims are terrorists, but any peace they bestow is on their terms. This is also not to say that all Christians are perfect.

The frustration comes when you have actually seen what some of these people (and not the fringe) do in the name of their religion. It is a culture that is not inline with Western ways. This is why I stress assimilation when talking about immigration.

I read a survey where the Majority of Muslims in America think they should have the choice between Sharia Law or the American Judicial system. So when we discuss fringes of the religions the "peaceful" Muslim might just be the fringe.

WTS: I've found this to be one of the better articles on the subject:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

[masterpanthera_t]

(04-26-2017, 11:17 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Are you referring to Affleck?  If so then you didn't watch the same clip as me.  He was tripping over himself to excuse and exculpate the excesses of the religion or denying them altogether.  I see I was right in my comparison.



Hahaha, I've addressed this ad naseum.  Find me a left leaning celebrity or politician who calls islam out for its daily excesses.  Find me one who clamors for the rights of women and homosexuals in the muslim world.  You'll find huge anti-Trump rallies due to his supposed misogyny.  I can't recall the same type of rally being held due to the daily misogyny of islam.  Trump may "grab them by the *****", in the muslim world they get acid thrown in their face or stoned to death.  I know which conduct I find more reprehensible.  Yet they don't seem to get the same attention, why?


Please find me one statement by me that stated islam should be banned in the United States.  Just one.  You've made this false flag claim several times, back it up or shelve it completely because it's getting old.  What I did say, multiple times, is that it is time to universally acknowledge the deeply flawed teachings of the faith and how they are acted upon daily by millions of people.  The left is terrified of criticizing anyone who isn't a white heterosexual male.  In so doing they give daily tacit approval to horrific acts of barbarism committed under the approving umbrella of a religion.  Wrong is wrong, condemn the treatment of women in islamic countries and do it with something close to the same fervor you reserve for Trump's defunding Planned Parenthood.  Condemn the horrific treatment of homosexuals in islamic countries.  People lost their shit over the report of gay concentration camps in Chechnya and rightfully so.  However, similar horrific acts occur on a daily basis in majority islam countries.


I get it, you don't have a problem with large percentages of a religion's adherents thinking it is ok to stone an adulteress woman.  Even in a liberal secular democracy.  You don't care about it so much you completely avoided even attempting to address it.  


It's not deflection, it's turning a blind eye to it.  The only excesses the left is comfortable addressing is that of the West.  It's moral cowardice at level red.  There's a reason that former friends are now enemies for me and vice versa; because I call out bullshit and wrongdoing regardless of who engages in it.  I have no partisan agenda, wrong is wrong.  Sadly, there doesn't seem to be enough of that around here.  There are a few, Belsnickel, Bpat, Hollodero, 'Zona (if I missed you I apologize).  Too many others are married to their agendas to the point where any criticism of something that falls within it is met with fierce counter attack rather than reasoned introspection.

I think I agree with most of the points brought up here in this post.  As I haven't posted much in the past few months, I have not articulated my thoughts about this matter in detail, but more or less this is a fine summarization.  There is a difference where I've argued in the past, mostly against St.LucieBengal and his ilk of falsification and conflation of issues with Islam, where the arguments are not presented rationally but with an obvious bent of paranoia and blindness.  

As someone who neither considers himself leftist or rightist, I will say that there is a difference between painting a broad brush for all Muslims based on a few, and a reasoned argument for why Islamic "values" need to be questioned and an honest debate take place between the virtues of Western values and how assimilation should take place when Islamist immigrants are allowed to migrate to the west (I will go so far as to say that assimilation into the West and ceding of certain abhorrent values HAS to be a requirement).  I will disagree with Xenophobic and ill conceived statements such as "savages" being ascribed to all adherents of a religion (not what you've done in this post at all, but I'm adding context to my previous disagreements with other posters), but a clear examination of so called Islamic values which run counter to all that we hold in high regard in the West needs to take place and it needs to be approached openly and fearlessly.  While I may disagree with the statement that the left is "aligned" with Islam, I think you're absolutely spot on with the assessment that there is not nearly (or any at all) the same fervor or sense of outrage when resisting Trump and his misogyny, compared to the near silence when it comes to vilification of those Islamic cultures with abhorrent values from the Western point of view.  

As I've stated before, I'm not a fan of Islam at all, and I've highlighted the following point in conversations with Rotobeast (not as a counter, but in general discussions), but would like to make it here again: there are nuances to consider how refugees should be handled without vilifying their culture, but that should not prevent us from questioning Islamic values nor should it prevent us from EXPECTING that those who may implicitly support those values to cede those values prior to being permitted into the United States.  While it is a morally superior action to allow refugees in, I would not find it unconscionable that we house them in well maintained camps with the clear understanding that they are to return to their homeland once the first opportunity to do so arises. 

P.S.  I will start posting more as I do not want to send off an impression that only the Islam topic awakens my interest in posting here.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRIAI77TmQo

Here's another really good one. It is long, but you'll (likely) learn something.

[Dill]

(04-26-2017, 11:17 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hahaha, I've addressed this ad naseum.  Find me a left leaning celebrity or politician who calls islam out for its daily excesses. 
 
It's not deflection, it's turning a blind eye to it.  The only excesses the left is comfortable addressing is that of the West.  It's moral cowardice at level red.  There's a reason that former friends are now enemies for me and vice versa; because I call out bullshit and wrongdoing regardless of who engages in it.  I have no partisan agenda, wrong is wrong.  Sadly, there doesn't seem to be enough of that around here.  There are a few, Belsnickel, Bpat, Hollodero, 'Zona (if I missed you I apologize).  Too many others are married to their agendas to the point where any criticism of something that falls within it is met with fierce counter attack rather than reasoned introspectio

1. A suggestion-- perhaps US celebrity culture should not be the standard for judging whether Islam (an entire religion?) is properly characterized and effectively "called out" for "daily excesses." Someone genuinely interested in some depth of understanding of debates within and around Islam should perhaps be looking for where those debates are actually occurring. (And I don't mean Youtube.)

2. Some one who worries about "cultural suicide" while repeating right wing shibboleths about Islamic "daily excesses" and "leftist" cowardice (and is fresh from an NRA-style defense of his 2nd Amendment rights on another thread) most certainly has a partisan agenda.  And I have seen nothing in the writings of Belsnickel, Bpat, Hololo, or Zona that accords with the views expressed in your post. They all have deservedly high reputations in this forum in part because they do not engage in ad hominem.

3. What can "reasoned introspection" mean to someone who simply denies statistics which disagree with his views and  routinely engages in ad hominem--then suddenly lumps himself in with a crowd of esteemed posters who do none of that?  Is demand for celebrity confirmation a step toward "reasoned introspection"?  

[Matt_Crimson]

(04-26-2017, 11:54 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This is the dynamic that I see and one that needs more focus. When the left talks about Christianity they tend to focus more on the negatives aspects: homophobic, racists, sexist, ect...; however, you never see those same monikers attached when they discuss Muslims. Both sides have their biases and if we could ever address them in a rational fashion we could perhaps one day make progress.

Yeah it's sad really. Especially when the Crusades are used to defend Islam. How does it go again? Oh yeah! I remember now.

"Once upon a time in a very peaceful land there lived a bunch of very peaceful Muslims that never bothered anybody. They always kept their peaceful religion to their peaceful selves and never threatened anyone else or even thought about invading another country. These peaceful muslims got along very well with everyone. That is.....until......



*thundering sounds* 


Dun dun dunnnnnn!!!


*more thundering sounds*


One day a bunch of barbaric animals that called themselves Christians showed up and started slaughtering them all because they didn't like the way they looked. The end."

[Dill]

(04-26-2017, 01:50 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote:   While I may disagree with the statement that the left is "aligned" with Islam, I think you're absolutely spot on with the assessment that there is not nearly (or any at all) the same fervor or sense of outrage when resisting Trump and his misogyny, compared to the near silence when it comes to vilification of those Islamic cultures with abhorrent values from the Western point of view.  

You seem like a reasonable enough guy, Masterp. But how would you respond to this counter-assessment of the current Islam debate.


When non-Muslim Westerners critics of Islam speak out on internet forums, there is a tendency to essentialize the religion. It is discussed as a monolithic whole, whose truest representatives are those whose practices are farthest from US norms. If one knows what Muslims in Afghanistan do, then one has seen the true face of the religion. And seen enough. One country bans women from driving, so it makes perfect sense to ask why “they”—world Muslims—do that.  The Islamic State kills homosexuals. Why do “they” do that? If Christians cut female genitals they are only fringe groups in backward places distorting Christianity. But if some Muslims do that, why must ask why their religion condones the practice. As Western armies continue their occupation of Muslim lands, we must question their claim Islam is a religion of peace.

When this tendency to generalize to the whole based on actions of some is criticized for what it is—a hasty generalization of the sort people always protest when applied to their own religion—then Pew polls and the like are trotted out. X% of Muslims living in Britain or Egypt think stoning adulterers is ok.  The gap is closed and we are quickly back to the monolith. If you know what the Islamic State or a Mullah in Iran says Islam is, then you know Islam. Obvious questions—how many women are actually stoned in Britain or Egypt or any Muslim country, how many homosexuals executed, etc?—are not asked.

 We hear that Muslims won’t step forward to criticize their religion, and that some group called “leftists” hypocritically criticize Christianity for misogyny and homophobia while “defending” Islam on the same counts, or simply remaining “silent.”  Some are puzzled that "leftists" will turn out by the thousands to protest the election of a sexual assaulter to the highest office in their own country, but don’t turn out crowds to protest religious practices in other countries like Saudi Arabia  or Afghanistan (where? Before an embassy? Every day?). They have in some sense “latched on” to Islam to defend this monolith.  But repeated invitations to provide examples of leftist “support” for Islam, when not met with silence, turn out to be ordinary defenses of the right to freedom of religion, and/or a refusal of the invitation to scapegoat based on religion and ethnicity.


That demographics and political groups famous for their persecution of gays and opposition to women’s rights suddenly hold up progressive liberal/leftist ideals of equality as the essence of Western civilization passes unremarked, even as those groups retain the logic of minority scapegoating and turn it upon a new religious group.

A hypothesis—there are in fact a great many liberals, “leftists” and liberal, leftist Muslims criticizing misogyny everywhere in the world, including the US and Muslim countries, often de-coupling misogyny from religion, but that dialogue and struggle over women’s rights gets little coverage in the US mass media—some in the MSM, almost none on Fox and the myriad right wing websites now emerging to warn us of cultural suicide.  It would not be very difficult in a forum like this to link to a wide variety of source evidence, but I am guessing the initial response would be that a list of links would have to be very long and detailed to escape the reverse of hasty generalization—the charge those many sources were marginal, a small percentage of worldwide debate on these matters.  

[Dill]

(04-27-2017, 12:45 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Yeah it's sad really. Especially when the Crusades are used to defend Islam. How does it go again? Oh yeah! I remember now.

"Once upon a time in a very peaceful land there lived a bunch of very peaceful Muslims that never bothered anybody. They always kept their peaceful religion to their peaceful selves and never threatened anyone else or even thought about invading another country. These peaceful muslims got along very well with everyone. That is.....until......

*thundering sounds* 

Dun dun dunnnnnn!!!

*more thundering sounds*

One day a bunch of barbaric animals that called themselves Christians showed up and started slaughtering them all because they didn't like the way they looked. The end."

Where do you remember that from, Matt? 

I don't think I have ever heard that version of the Crusades before.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-27-2017, 12:33 AM)Dill Wrote: 1. A suggestion-- perhaps US celebrity culture should not be the standard for judging whether Islam (an entire religion?) is properly characterized and effectively "called out" for "daily excesses." Someone genuinely interested in some depth of understanding of debates within and around Islam should perhaps be looking for where those debates are actually occurring. (And I don't mean Youtube.)

Sure, don't use celebrities as the standard.  Kindly point out the non-celebrity outrage over islam's daily outrages to complete your point.

Quote:2. Some one who worries about "cultural suicide" while repeating right wing shibboleths about Islamic "daily excesses" and "leftist" cowardice (and is fresh from an NRA-style defense of his 2nd Amendment rights on another thread) most certainly has a partisan agenda.  And I have seen nothing in the writings of Belsnickel, Bpat, Hololo, or Zona that accords with the views expressed in your post. They all have deservedly high reputations in this forum in part because they do not engage in ad hominem.

I'm not worried about "cultural suicide", I merely pointed out that many Germans (former East Germans especially for some reason) seem determined to make up for Nazi excesses by over compensating in regards to welcoming so many people from a completely foreign (and often times hostile to western values) culture.  Mind you hollodero completely understands and agrees with this point (my use of an hitherto unknown loaded term notwithstanding) and rather has a more front row seat to it.  I absolutely defend the second amendment.  Until someone can make a very convincing argument for depriving US citizens of their constitutional rights I will continue to do so.  I'm sorry you have such disdain for our constitution.

Quote:3. What can "reasoned introspection" mean to someone who simply denies statistics which disagree with his views and  routinely engages in ad hominem--then suddenly lumps himself in with a crowd of esteemed posters who do none of that?  Is demand for celebrity confirmation a step toward "reasoned introspection"?  

I stated my reasoned objection to your "statistics".  You disagree, fine.  Please don't attempt to speak for me, I do a very good job of doing so for myself.  You will find yourself in the minority on this subject.  I kindly bid you good day.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

More point by point dissection.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ47kSq2TJ4

[*michaelsean*]

(04-26-2017, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Here's an open question.  When the Danish cartoon was posted why did almost no other outlet reproduce the picture in question?  This was a major news story, you think people would want to know what was causing such a huge uproar, right?  So, kindly explain why none of the major news networks would show it?  At the same time maybe you can tackle why they censored Muhammad in South Park, a show that also features Jesus as a character in frequently irreverent fashion.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-27-2017, 11:13 AM)michaelsean Wrote:

GM has to wait for Fred to tell him how to think on this before he responds.  Fred won't respond because he can't cherry pick one point from that post and pretend the rest doesn't exist.