laws holding gun owners responsible for letting child get loaded gun?

[*bfine32*]

(04-04-2016, 11:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Is there supposed to be some point to this post?

Or maybe I should make a post about a murder and then make some snarky remark about how stupid laws against murder are because they don't stop every single murder.

The point is that making more laws doesn't stop criminal activity.

Feel free to make any post you desire. But to be more apt you should make a post about how making more laws against murder would reduce it; as no one is advocating removing gun laws in place. 

[fredtoast]

(04-04-2016, 11:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The point is that making more laws doesn't stop criminal activity.

Feel free to make any post you desire. But to be more apt you should make a post about how making more laws against murder would reduce it; as no one is advocating removing gun laws in place. 

The dramatic drop in the percentage of auto deaths related to alcohol since the 1980's is in direct proportion to the increase in severity of DUI laws.

**waits fro Bfine to post a story about a single DUI related death that he believes will prove me wrong.**

[Rotobeast]

(04-05-2016, 01:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The dramatic drop in the percentage of auto deaths related to alcohol since the 1980's is in direct proportion to the increase in severity of DUI laws.

**waits fro Bfine to post a story about a single DUI related death that he believes will prove me wrong.**

Maybe people just got better at driving drunk ?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-05-2016, 01:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The dramatic drop in the percentage of auto deaths related to alcohol since the 1980's is in direct proportion to the increase in severity of DUI laws.

**waits fro Bfine to post a story about a single DUI related death that he believes will prove me wrong.**

So you're arguing for stricter sentencing in crimes that involve the use of a firearm?  I'm all for that.  Punish criminals and leave the 99.99% of gun owners who commit no crimes the hell alone.  Sounds like a plan to me.

[Belsnickel]

(04-05-2016, 12:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So you're arguing for stricter sentencing in crimes that involve the use of a firearm?  I'm all for that.  Punish criminals and leave the 99.99% of gun owners who commit no crimes the hell alone.  Sounds like a plan to me.

I think this is something that should be more thoroughly discussed. How seriously does our justice system actually take firearm offenses? I know of violent felons caught with a handgun and are out on time served once it processes through. Illegally possessing, trafficking, or using firearms ought to carry stiffer penalties.

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2016, 12:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So you're arguing for stricter sentencing in crimes that involve the use of a firearm?  I'm all for that.  Punish criminals and leave the 99.99% of gun owners who commit no crimes the hell alone.  Sounds like a plan to me.

No.  We need gun registration.

I don't want to take people's guns away.  I just want some way to hold the "irresponsible" gun owners responsible.

Same reason we require people to registers their cars.  They kill lots of people and do lots of property damage. 


BTW your 99.99% claim is complete bullshit.  Where did you get that number?

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2016, 12:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this is something that should be more thoroughly discussed. How seriously does our justice system actually take firearm offenses? I know of violent felons caught with a handgun and are out on time served once it processes through. Illegally possessing, trafficking, or using firearms ought to carry stiffer penalties.

Using a firearm in commission of a felony is a class C felony in Tennessee (3-6 years) and carries manditory prison time consecutive to (stacked on top of) any time for the underlying felony.

Many states have laws like this.

But it is not against the law to sell a gun to an individual without finding out if he is a violent convicted felon.

[Rotobeast]

(04-05-2016, 01:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Using a firearm in commission of a felony is a class C felony in Tennessee (3-6 years) and carries manditory prison time consecutive to (stacked on top of) any time for the underlying felony.

Many states have laws like this.

But it is not against the law to sell a gun to an individual without finding out if he is a violent convicted felon.

Just out of curiosity, what is the definition of "using" a firearm?
Is it actually discharging, brandishing, or does it count when tucked in the waistband and such ?

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2016, 01:33 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the definition of "using" a firearm?
Is it actually discharging,  brandishing,  or does it count when tucked in the waistband and such ?

I believe there are different level for "possessing" and "discharging".  I'll look it up later.  

[Rotobeast]

(04-05-2016, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I believe there are different level for "possessing" and "discharging".  I'll look it up later.  

Thanks... I'm sure it differs state to state and I'm not overly efficient at scanning the legal stuff.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-05-2016, 12:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this is something that should be more thoroughly discussed. How seriously does our justice system actually take firearm offenses? I know of violent felons caught with a handgun and are out on time served once it processes through. Illegally possessing, trafficking, or using firearms ought to carry stiffer penalties.

Agreed, but because of mandatory sentencing laws often times the first thing pled out is the firearm related charge.  The wind is definitely blowing in the direction of leniency which I can tell you from personal experience.  Making firearms related sentencing stiffer, and not allowing them to be pled out or to a lesser crime, would go a fair way towards reducing gun related crime.

(04-05-2016, 01:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  We need gun registration.

I don't want to take people's guns away.

Maybe you don't, there are many who do.

Quote: I just want some way to hold the "irresponsible" gun owners responsible.

Please define "irresponsible" in this context.

Quote:Same reason we require people to registers their cars.  They kill lots of people and do lots of property damage.

 
While I get your point you don't have a constitutional right to own and drive a car.  You do have to pass a firearms related safety course and test to purchase a firearm, unless you are peace officer exempt.  At least you do in CA.

Quote:BTW your 99.99% claim is complete bullshit.  Where did you get that number?

I love it when you talk dirty.  Let's break it down as best we can shall we?  A gallup poll conducted in 2011 showed that around 47% of adults in the US owned a firearm.  I think it's safe to say that is a fair number and it may even be higher now, but I'll even compromise and go with 45%.  The US census shows that 76% of the US population of around 320 million are legally adults, or 243,200,000 people.  45% of that number is 109,440,000.  I'll be even kinder to your argument and round it down to an even 100,000,000.  The uniformed crime  report shows the following:

Quote:

• There were an estimated 1,165,383 violent crimes (murder and non-negligent homicides, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults) reported by law enforcement.
  

Let's be even more generous to you and round that up to 1.5 million to allow for "unreported" crimes.  Note that not all violent crimes involved a firearm so let's, again generously IMO, round that number down to one million firearms related crimes per year.  Now let's be really generous to you and say that 500,000 criminals committed those one million crimes, which we both know isn't close to true, that means that gun related crime was committed by .5% of gun owners.  So you're right, my number was bullshit.  The actual number is 99.5% of gun owners.  Let's even be insanely generous to you and say all one million gun related crimes were committed by separate individuals, which isn't even close to true.  That would mean that all of those gun related crimes were committed by 99% of gun owners.  Even in this perfect fantasy land for you it shows that the overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners commit no gun related crimes at all.  Given the fact that the vast majority of crime is committed by a small percentage of the criminal population I think my 99.99% number is very close to dead one.  Feel free to form a cogent argument otherwise if you'd like.

[*bfine32*]

(04-05-2016, 01:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The dramatic drop in the percentage of auto deaths related to alcohol since the 1980's is in direct proportion to the increase in severity of DUI laws.

**waits fro Bfine to post a story about a single DUI related death that he believes will prove me wrong.**

Oh, you've mistaken me for someone who doesn't want strict punishment for those that break the law. Let me look back at post #11 and see if I am the one that is confused..............



Nope, it's not me.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-05-2016, 02:03 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Thanks... I'm sure it differs state to state and I'm not overly efficient at scanning the legal stuff.

Possession is not as serious as brandishing which is not as serious as discharging.  Generally speaking.  There are tons of other factors to consider as well.

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2016, 03:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I love it when you talk dirty.  Let's break it down as best we can shall we?  A gallup poll conducted in 2011 showed that around 47% of adults in the US owned a firearm.  I think it's safe to say that is a fair number and it may even be higher now, but I'll even compromise and go with 45%.  The US census shows that 76% of the US population of around 320 million are legally adults, or 243,200,000 people.  45% of that number is 109,440,000.  I'll be even kinder to your argument and round it down to an even 100,000,000.  The uniformed crime  report shows the following:



Let's be even more generous to you and round that up to 1.5 million to allow for "unreported" crimes.  Note that not all violent crimes involved a firearm so let's, again generously IMO, round that number down to one million firearms related crimes per year.  Now let's be really generous to you and say that 500,000 criminals committed those one million crimes, which we both know isn't close to true, that means that gun related crime was committed by .5% of gun owners.  So you're right, my number was bullshit.  The actual number is 99.5% of gun owners.  Let's even be insanely generous to you and say all one million gun related crimes were committed by separate individuals, which isn't even close to true.  That would mean that all of those gun related crimes were committed by 99% of gun owners.  Even in this perfect fantasy land for you it shows that the overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners commit no gun related crimes at all.  Given the fact that the vast majority of crime is committed by a small percentage of the criminal population I think my 99.99% number is very close to dead one.  Feel free to form a cogent argument otherwise if you'd like.

Total fail.

You have just strung together a lot of wild guesses and faulty stats (the Gallup poll you linked showed that only 34% of adults own a weapon not 47%) to show that only .5% of gun owners commit a crime IN ANY GIVEN SINGLE YEAR.  The problem is that the exact same people do not commit crimes every single year.

So if you assume that most of these gun owners owned their guns for 10 years then you have to multiply the number of crimes by 10.  Since you were originally wrong by 500% that would mean over just 10 years you would be wrong by 5,000%.

But that is just all wild speculation.  Instead of just making up stuff like you have done I will try to find the actual numbers.

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2016, 03:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, you've mistaken me for someone who doesn't want strict punishment for those that break the law. Let me look back at post #11 and see if I am the one that is confused..............



Nope, it's not me.

The DUI laws did not just go up in punishment.  They actually expanded the scope of the laws.

But if you don't want to talk about DUIs I will gladly discuss the rate of pollution before and after regulations were put in place.  Or the levels of child labor.  Or even the levels of gun violence in the western territories before and after statehood and the implementation of stricter gun laws.

New laws change behavior.  If you want to debate it I will be glad to, but it is so well accepted that most people take it for granted.  That is why they make movies like The Purge, and everyone gets the concept.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-05-2016, 03:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Total fail.

You have just strung together a lot of wild guesses and faulty stats (the Gallup poll you linked showed that only 34% of adults own a weapon not 47%)

You seriously got through law school?  From the link verbatim;

Quote:Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. 

Quote:to show that only .5% of gun owners commit a crime IN ANY GIVEN SINGLE YEAR.  The problem is that the exact same people do not commit crimes every single year.

Actually, to a large extent they absolutely do.  As a defense attorney you should be well aware that the majority of criminal activity is perpetrated by a low percentage of the criminal population.  

Quote:So if you assume that most of these gun owners owned their guns for 10 years then you have to multiply the number of crimes by 10.  Since you were originally wrong by 500% that would mean over just 10 years you would be wrong by 5,000%.

Statistics fail.  Again, at this point I seriously have to question how you got through under graduate school much less law school.

Quote:But that is just all wild speculation.  Instead of just making up stuff like you have done I will try to find the actual numbers.

Make sure you know how to read them.  I was waiting to point this out, since you weren't perceptive enough to do it yourself I will now do so.  What percentage of gun related crime is committed by juveniles who would not count against the number of adults legally owning a firearm?  Face it counselor, every single piece of statistical evidence works in my favor.

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2016, 04:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You seriously got through law school?  From the link verbatim;





Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. 

You know how I got through law school?

I learned the difference between the term "homes" and "individuals".



Or do you really believe there are 320 million "homes" in the United States?

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2016, 04:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, to a large extent they absolutely do.  As a defense attorney you should be well aware that the majority of criminal activity is perpetrated by a low percentage of the criminal population.  

I am well aware of the high recidivism rate among criminals, but there is a serious flaw in your logic when it comes to serious violent crimes like murder, robbery, aggravated rape, aggravated assault, etc committed with a gun.  Those people do a considerable amount of time in jail so it is impossible for them to be the same ones committing those same crimes every year.

[Belsnickel]

(04-05-2016, 03:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: While I get your point you don't have a constitutional right to own and drive a car.  You do have to pass a firearms related safety course and test to purchase a firearm, unless you are peace officer exempt.  At least you do in CA.

Yeah, good luck with that in some states. In Virginia you can walk into a gun shop on your 21st birthday without ever having handled a firearm before in your life and purchase a handgun. You can then carry your butt to the courthouse and turn in your paperwork for your concealed carry permit (showing your hunter education safety course certificate which requires zero hands on time with a firearm and zero time outside for that matter) and be granted the permit as a shall issue state.

All of this without ever having had any sort of training or experience in handling a firearm before in your life. You can now lawfully carry a concealed handgun with you.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-05-2016, 04:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You know how I got through law school?

I learned the difference between the term "homes" and "individuals".



Or do you really believe there are 320 million "homes" in the United States?

Do most adults live on their own or as a couple?  A married couple with a gun in the home is two gun owners, I could care less which person the gun is registered to.  I allowed for the percentage of "adults" living at home by rounding down in your favor in every single instance.  Do I believe there are 320 million "homes" the US, no.  Do I believe there are around 100 million, which is the number I used, yes.  The number is actually closer to 116 million per the US census bureau.  As there are 2.6 people per household multiplying that number by two adults comes very close to giving you the adult population.  Again, I accounted for variances in this by rounding down in your favor in every instance.  so this doesn't change my numbers at all.

(04-05-2016, 04:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am well aware of the high recidivism rate among criminals, but there is a serious flaw in your logic when it comes to serious violent crimes like murder, robbery, aggravated rape, aggravated assault, etc committed with a gun.  Those people do a considerable amount of time in jail so it is impossible for them to be the same ones committing those same crimes every year.

They do when they get caught.  As we both know the clearance rate for reported crimes is not exceptionally high.  We also both know that for every crime a recidivist is caught for they almost certainly committed several more that go unsolved.  The general consensus that the vast majority of crime is committed by a small percentage of the criminal population is not in dispute within the criminal justice system.  That point alone points to the validity of my point, much less all the other factual examples cited.