transcript redactions from Orlando shooting

[BmorePat87]

(06-23-2016, 01:29 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Again, that still doesn't make someone kill unless their brain is wired wrong. It's a cheap, easy cop out. 

So what then pushes this person with a mental illness to target that specific group? Homophobic messages reinforced by homophobes. I'm not sure why we can't acknowledge the hostile environment gay people live in. It doesn't cheapen the fact that mental illness is also a problem that exists in our society. It also doesn't change the fact that terrorism is an issue we must confront.

[BmorePat87]

Who here truly thinks that gay people do not face adversity in our society? Even in our little microcosm, we have people who tell us they are mentally ill and should be denied the same rights as others.

[Griever]

(06-23-2016, 01:34 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So what then pushes this person with a mental illness to target that specific group? Homophobic messages reinforced by homophobes. I'm not sure why we can't acknowledge the hostile environment gay people live in. It doesn't cheapen the fact that mental illness is also a problem that exists in our society. It also doesn't change the fact that terrorism is an issue we must confront.

mainly because he doesnt want to focus on who actually fostered ans empowers the homophobic environment

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-23-2016, 08:30 AM)Griever Wrote: some just need the slightest push to do something terrible



but mental health is a big issue here and something that needs to be fixed because the majority of these shootings stem from something off in the brain that causes them to snap

Exactly. Religion may be the excuse, but it's not the cause. 

If an end could be put to religion, crazy people would find other excuses to do crazy things. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-23-2016, 01:34 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So what then pushes this person with a mental illness to target that specific group? Homophobic messages reinforced by homophobes. I'm not sure why we can't acknowledge the hostile environment gay people live in. It doesn't cheapen the fact that mental illness is also a problem that exists in our society. It also doesn't change the fact that terrorism is an issue we must confront.

What pushes the person is an excuse, or maybe better stated, a symptom of the actual cause. I acknowledge the hostile environment. I know it's there. Point is, it's too easy, and doesn't get to the issue of the mental illness, to blame X. 

It's like treating skin lesions that are caused by cancer or HIV. There's a point to it, but it's not the cause of the lesions. 

Blanket "terrorism" isn't quite so easy. Certainly, it needs to be confronted but all terrorism isn't committed for one fact. Sometimes it's "because of gays", sometimes it's "because you bombed/occupy my country", sometimes it's "because so and so is imprisoned", sometimes it's "because you don't believe what i believe". 

And there is something in there where the driving force is an ideology. Sometimes that's due to a mental illness, sometimes that's due to...for lack of a better term...brainwashing (perversion fits in there too). 

Religion is blamed because of the atrocity, and the amount of it. To me, it's just an easy excuse. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-23-2016, 01:39 PM)Griever Wrote: mainly because he doesnt want to focus on who actually fostered ans empowers the homophobic environment

That's not true. Going back to my point, with many millions/billions of examples on the books--while what fostered the environment may have been the driving force--without the perversion/mental illness, the killing doesn't happen. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-23-2016, 02:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: What pushes the person is an excuse, or maybe better stated, a symptom of the actual cause. I acknowledge the hostile environment. I know it's there. Point is, it's too easy, and doesn't get to the issue of the mental illness, to blame X. 

It's like treating skin lesions that are caused by cancer or HIV. There's a point to it, but it's not the cause of the lesions. 

Blanket "terrorism" isn't quite so easy. Certainly, it needs to be confronted but all terrorism isn't committed for one fact. Sometimes it's "because of gays", sometimes it's "because you bombed/occupy my country", sometimes it's "because so and so is imprisoned", sometimes it's "because you don't believe what i believe". 

And there is something in there where the driving force is an ideology. Sometimes that's due to a mental illness, sometimes that's due to...for lack of a better term...brainwashing (perversion fits in there too). 

Religion is blamed because of the atrocity, and the amount of it. To me, it's just an easy excuse. 

I don't disagree that having a screw lose is what caused his homophobia to manifest as a massacre and not getting on thebengalsboard.com and calling all gay people "mentally ill" and "perverts", but I just said we can address all issues simultaneously. What's wrong with also addressing the fact that many are trying to create a hostile environment for gay people in this country?

[masterpanthera_t]

(06-22-2016, 05:35 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: This isn't the case.

Second generation Muslims in the west are actually more likely to be radicalized than their parents.

I'm at the office, but I can cite this when I get home.

I may concede this point, however, it depends on the percentage of the population that does this, before I will say this warrants any more action than what the FBI is undertaking.  The other point to consider is that most of the people who've been caught have been reported by their own community.  I'd have to see a significantly higher percentage of their population losing their marbles and going on shootouts compared to the rest of the U.S. population, before I can say we need to do more than what the FBI has done.

However, the larger point of Islamic reformation being a silly idea, I will stand by.  And another point that I would like to draw attention to, one which has gotten no responses, no matter how many times it's been mentioned, is how will the U.S. expect a reformation (as if this can be forced on a population unwillingly), when the U.S is so tightly bound with an undemocratic and repressive regime in Saudi Arabia, which is actually responsible (directly or indirectly) for much of the ideology of ISIS and Al Qaeda. This idea of a Muslim reformation, is a kind of rhetoric that holds the Islamic population to a standard to which none other is held.

I've already stated in other threads that I'm not a fan of Islam, but the problem in this discussion, is we're overrun with a lot of fear mongering words like Sharia, with nobody even explaining the true meaning of it.  How about we actually have a nationwide attempt to understand what this means from the perspective of American Muslims before we already assume the worst of their beliefs.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-23-2016, 03:33 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I don't disagree that having a screw lose is what caused his homophobia to manifest as a massacre and not getting on thebengalsboard.com and calling all gay people "mentally ill" and "perverts", but I just said we can address all issues simultaneously. What's wrong with also addressing the fact that many are trying to create a hostile environment for gay people in this country?

We can and i agree there are two separate issues. Mass killings due to ideology/mental illness and the daily discrimination based on ideology/mental illness/ignorance.

I'm not attempting to slow anyone's roll on issues.

[THE Bigzoman]

(06-23-2016, 03:52 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I may concede this point, however, it depends on the percentage of the population that does this, before I will say this warrants any more action than what the FBI is undertaking.  The other point to consider is that most of the people who've been caught have been reported by their own community.  I'd have to see a significantly higher percentage of their population losing their marbles and going on shootouts compared to the rest of the U.S. population, before I can say we need to do more than what the FBI has done.

However, the larger point of Islamic reformation being a silly idea, I will stand by.  And another point that I would like to draw attention to, one which has gotten no responses, no matter how many times it's been mentioned, is how will the U.S. expect a reformation (as if this can be forced on a population unwillingly), when the U.S is so tightly bound with an undemocratic and repressive regime in Saudi Arabia, which is actually responsible (directly or indirectly) for much of the ideology of ISIS and Al Qaeda.  This idea of a Muslim reformation, is a kind of rhetoric that holds the Islamic population to a standard to which none other is held.  

I've already stated in other threads that I'm not a fan of Islam, but the problem in this discussion, is we're overrun with a lot of fear mongering words like Sharia, with nobody even explaining the true meaning of it.  How about we actually have a nationwide attempt to understand what this means from the perspective of American Muslims before we already assume the worst of their beliefs.

A few things (bolded in order of things addressed):

1. Care to cite a source? I don't think the numbers slide one way or the other, but it's important to point out that there's been high profile cases where the Muslim community actively protected fugitives who were later responsible for attacks ( Brussles)

2. Why? A "Reformation" is just what Christianity and Judaism experienced far earlier. A "reformation" would just be the equliviant to Martin Luther, the enlightenment, and other advancements in thinking that western religions experienced while Islam remained as sheltered as an anti-social kid.


3. I don't see how this has anything to do with it. Is it hypocritical? Sure. But nations have allied with one another despite things like this forever. Plenty of ideas managed to evolved despite this.

[masterpanthera_t]

(06-23-2016, 07:22 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: A few things (bolded in order of things addressed):

1. Care to cite a source? I don't think the numbers slide one way or the other, but it's important to point out that there's been high profile cases where the Muslim community actively protected fugitives who were later responsible for attacks ( Brussles)

2. Why? A "Reformation" is just what Christianity and Judaism experienced far earlier. A "reformation" would just be the equliviant to Martin Luther, the enlightenment, and other advancements in thinking that western religions experienced while Islam remained as sheltered as an anti-social kid.


3. I don't see how this has anything to do with it. Is it hypocritical? Sure. But nations have allied with one another despite things like this forever. Plenty of ideas managed to evolved despite this.

1.  I will when I get a chance, and if I don't have any sources, I will retract the claim.  I'm still waiting on you to cite your source for another claim made earlier.

2.  A reformation is one that happens when a group feels a need for some organic change in their understanding of their religion.  The "reformation" is not needed to bring about change, as the terrorists are a very small minority of the religion.  If you ask the rest of the adherents, they will say, "this is not Islam".  IMO, this would be like Christians being asked to reform the KKK as it claims some Christian ideology within.  I don't know about the Jews, but the Christian reformation IIRC didn't occur because an outside group "forced" it to occur.  It occurred organically due to their own needs at the time.  Further, Islam doesn't have a central authority like the Roman Catholic church at the time of the Protestant movement.  Each country and culture interprets the Qur'an its own way.  Who is exactly reforming whom?   I don't see the feasibility of a reformation of 1.4 billion people spread on many continents, but if this happens, great.  

3.  When we have allied ourselves with repressive regimes, we are holding back the people in these countries from becoming free societies.  And it affects the situation even more because Saudi Arabia, while repressive and closed, exports its Wahhabi ideology outside of its borders, because it has the funding to do so.  Most of the western evolution came outside of Christianity due to open and free governments.  This is what is needed for the Islamic world.  Not a forced reformation from the west, but a true cultural change due to free expression of ideas.  

[masterpanthera_t]

(06-23-2016, 03:52 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: The other point to consider is that most of the people who've been caught have been reported by their own community.  

(06-23-2016, 07:22 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: Care to cite a source?

(06-23-2016, 08:43 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I will when I get a chance, and if I don't have any sources, I will retract the claim.  

In my lazy search for sources, I have not been able to corroborate this claim.  Therefore time has come for me to retract it.  I cannot show that most of the people caught were reported by their own community.
WTS, I did find a couple sources which show that the Muslim community is an active partner and is cooperating with the FBI and has been responsible for starting many investigations (a quarter) on one of their own by alerting the FBI.  Here are a couple links (warning: at least one of the articles is fairly long, and I'm too lazy to cull specific notes from them for the purposes of drawing anyone's attention here, not to mention I'd rather not be thought of as cherry-picking from the article). 

http://politico.com/magazine/story/2016/03/fbi-muslim-outreach-terrorism-213765

The above touches on how the American Muslims are different from the Belgian community in terms of cooperation with law enforcement and shows the FBI's enforcement activity and some examples of the communities turning in one of their own.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Z213U

This one talks more about the cooperation between FBI and the Muslim community with direct quotes from FBI director James Comey.

EDIT: Forgot to add this link:

https://www.thenation.com/article/fbis-good-muslims

Similar information as the prior links.