They can go drop massive cash in free agency all they want..
I think what we all learned this year is that if you do not get the proper fitting players who can gel with the current locker room and actually have the desire to WIN for/Teammates/Fans/City and Ofcourse themselves and their families then its all for not...
Trust when i say the league is full of uninspired players just seeking a large paycheck and that is their only concern
The battle ahead is finding the hungry/Selfless/Character guys

(02-17-2022, 06:47 PM)CincyDog Wrote: OJ Howard is the TE I would be targeting in FA.

Price is right but PFF isnt too high on him, I dont think ive seen him play.

BACKUP TIGHT END WITH STARTER POTENTIAL: Potential has been the key word for Howard who has had two good seasons and three below-average ones. He can be a vertical threat with his size and speed and he's shown to be a capable run blocker, it's just a matter of getting it out of him every week.

(02-17-2022, 04:23 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: His last contract averaged over $6 mil a year. Salary cap is going up as well and he just had his best year yet. $8 mil avg wouldn’t shock me. That’s just where contracts are headed. I’d have a hard time giving him more than $7 mil a year and that’s because of his leadership. Hopefully he isn’t worried about breaking the bank and comes in at a reasonable price.

As for the Gronk idea others are throwing out, I love the idea but he should be LAST priority if we are able to fix the o line and bring our guys back and still have enough left over to make a run at him. He’s a luxury, not a necessity.

I can’t see us putting that much money into the TE position for an average TE. That’s kinda why i don’t see Gronk either. Him and CJ would be close to 17-20 mil just between them and i see no world which their production would match their pay. I’d rather get a solid TE in the draft like that kid from Ohio State. We don’t really need a super pass catcher, just a guy with good 3rd down hands that can block

(02-17-2022, 06:47 PM)CincyDog Wrote: OJ Howard is the TE I would be targeting in FA.

Injured a lot and never got in Bradys good graces after Gronk got settled in. I wouldn’t put more than like 12-14 mill into the TE position so i hope his price isn’t too high. I would love Uzomah and OJ tho. A big body that catches contested and and faster more athletic guy you can put in to stretch the field and catch good impact blocks on screens




Just looked at the list and saw Hayden Hurst is a FA too. Great pass catcher and do all TE

I really don't think any expectations can be too high. Are window is right now with some of our biggest stars on rookie contracts and a lot of cap space. We need to go all in that we can on free agency now. Then continue to build thru the draft. I think the Bengals front office realizes how close we are and how excited the fan base became. I think they are gonna bring as many of our own guys back they can while adding a couple OL players then be ready for the draft. All the talk of Chase vs Sewell but if we had made a Thuney deal work we might be Superbowl champions. Can't let this opportunity pass us by.

(02-17-2022, 03:44 PM)casear2727 Wrote: CincyWestside made an interesting post in the thread "The minimum for me to be satisfied".

His take seems to cover a majority of the posters here and on twitter. I thought it would be interesting to see how these numbers work.

First, sign Bates long term. Front load the contract so we are hampered when it comes time to pay Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.

Second, sign CJ. Great team leader and provides adaquate production from the TE considering the WR group we have.

Third, sign either Ogunjobi or Hill. I prefer Og, but if he gets too pricey then divert that to Hill. Or if both are cheap enough, then sign both.

Fourth, see if Gronk is serious about playing with Burrow. He'd be great to use in redzone and late game situations. He might enjoy it more when he's not leaned on as much as the Pats and Bucs needed him to do.

Fifth, rebuild the OL in FA. No more drafting players to fill OL holes. We have a bad record of it. I prefer maybe 1 top tier OL FA (pricey) and then 2 solid ones. I trust Zac to find guys who fit our system like he did last offseason.


Sign Bates, CJ, Hill, Gronk, 1 Top OL, 2 Solid OL totals around $78M and that is without front loading Bates.

$78M is more than we have after cutting Waynes, zero for the draft, and we still need to sign/replace 13 more players:

Larry Ogunjobi
Josh Tupou
Vernon Hargreaves
Kevin Huber
Brandon Allen
Clark Harris
Eli Apple
Jordan Evans
Mike Thomas
Jalen Davis
Tre Flowers
Darius Phillips
Auden Tate

It is crazy how fast the dollars add up and this is with our our LBers and offensive stars still on rookie contracts.  We might need to temper our expectations for this offseason and be prepared for some tough biz decisions down the road once the rookie contracts expire.

I am sure we can all find more savings but this is the data I used:

Signing Bates longterm to meet his terms as one of the highest paid safeties is $16M - 18M

CJ is projected to be at $8.3M

Hill is projected to be at 8.75M.  Ogunjobi prior to injury was projected higher than Hill.

Gronk was paid $8M this past season.

1 top tier Oline.   Armstead (T) 20M, Scherff (G) 17M, Jensen (C.) 13M.  (used 17M avg for calculation, replaced Reiff on player list)

2 solid oline.   T Brown (T) 10M, Moses (T) 8M, Tomlinson (G) 9M, Daniels (G) 10M.  (used 19M for calculation, replaced Spain and Johnson on player list)

You seriously include "Hoody Many" Vernon Hargreaves in your list? He is a scab that will be ripped off. Also, Gronk? Never in any reality. Many of the others are just fringe 2nd team players.

Look, I've learned to trust this front office the past two off seasons. They didn't deserve trust prior to that, but here we are. 2 years in a row, and we've made some great ass signings (even if we didn't know it till later). I expect the same this off season.

Another note to that, I know there are people here on this board that are GM's and understand more than our front office, but if the Bengals want to make a splash or two on tier 1 free agents, I'm sure they can and know they can. As someone else said, it's not all about the biggest name at the position of need, it's about scheme and fit.

Trust the process. Even if it stings.

(02-17-2022, 07:17 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Price is right but PFF isnt too high on him, I dont think ive seen him play.

BACKUP TIGHT END WITH STARTER POTENTIAL: Potential has been the key word for Howard who has had two good seasons and three below-average ones. He can be a vertical threat with his size and speed and he's shown to be a capable run blocker, it's just a matter of getting it out of him every week.

Isn't he hurt A LOT?

Bates franchise tag is 13.5M. He won't get more than that unless he signs multi-year with up front bonus. I think he's a top 10 safety, but not a top 5.
CJ is a team leader and I'd like to see him back at 7M, but he's hit and miss in blocking. I'd also like to pursue Maxx Williams 6M, who is a more find-the-soft-spot receiver but an excellent blocker. Good TE blockers are getting harder to find.
Since DB performance is hard to project, I'd repeat our scatter shot approach and pursue DJ Reed 8M, Sidney Jones 4M, or Casey Hayward 8M as a CB2 with Eli or Phillips 2M as a CB5 and draft a CB/S.
BJ Hill is a nice run/pass mix, but for a little bump in salary the Bengals could pursue Akiem Hicks, who's better at everything.

The OLine: I'm not sold on anyone but Williams. I also don't want to sink $15+m into a player that could end up injured. I also don't want sign 4 FAs. OTOH, improvement isn't hard when you start from bad.
RT: I like Moses 8M if available, or sign Reiff 7M or Bobby Massey 3M as stop-gap RTs and draft or develop.
OG: Oday Aboushi 3M, recovering from ACL in 2021 and Spain 4M. I'm not convinced that Tomlinson is worth 8 or Scherff worth 17. Pick up another OG in the draft and let them battle it out.
OC: My big/small brain move. Trade 2022 and 2023 1st rounders to get Tyler Lindenbaum. I'm not planning to draft below 20+ in 2023 anyway. My guess is that we'd need to go up to #13 (Browns). As a 1st round pick, this is a 5 year answer to the center position. Alternatively or additionally, pursue Ben Jones 7M who is a solid pass-defender and has played RG in the past.

(02-17-2022, 07:17 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Price is right but PFF isnt too high on him, I dont think ive seen him play.

BACKUP TIGHT END WITH STARTER POTENTIAL: Potential has been the key word for Howard who has had two good seasons and three below-average ones. He can be a vertical threat with his size and speed and he's shown to be a capable run blocker, it's just a matter of getting it out of him every week.

because he was a starter 2 years, and then Arians turned him into a strictly blocking TE

Arians did the same thing to Gresham in Arizona

Not every player has to be re-signed, some can be cut and replaced with rookie contracts from drafted players to help protect our most valuable player on the team.

Plus we will be cutting half the O-line, certainly this brings a little money to the table, plus Waynes money.

If a new toy is signed like Gronk without fixing O-line ? Then the bengals really don't care about Joe Burrow at all.

Its as simple as that, they already have shown to have enough skill players to make a deep run in playoffs and really shouldn't be considering any others until O-line is fixed imo.

Like Bates a lot and always said I wanted him retained in the threads where everybody wanted him cut earlier in year and majority said he was a bum even. But if releasing him brings in an Armstead type player then I am all for it and draft Bates replacement with 1st round pick on rookie deal.

Would rather keep Bates and figure it out, but that is how important I believe fixing the O-line is that he is expendable if there is no other money to be found.

(02-17-2022, 09:00 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: You seriously include "Hoody Many" Vernon Hargreaves in your list? He is a scab that will be ripped off. Also, Gronk? Never in any reality. Many of the others are just fringe 2nd team players.

What?  Vernon Hargreaves, I clearly state we have to re-sign or replace those on that list in order to have a 53 man roster.  The actual names are irrelevant.  

Regarding Gronk, I was quoting another member's post.

You literally didn't read this very well or there's a comprehension issue.

(02-17-2022, 10:39 PM)puddycat Wrote: Bates franchise tag is 13.5M. He won't get more than that unless he signs multi-year with up front bonus. I think he's a top 10 safety, but not a top 5.
CJ is a team leader and I'd like to see him back at 7M, but he's hit and miss in blocking. I'd also like to pursue Maxx Williams 6M, who is a more find-the-soft-spot receiver but an excellent blocker. Good TE blockers are getting harder to find.
Since DB performance is hard to project, I'd repeat our scatter shot approach and pursue DJ Reed 8M, Sidney Jones 4M, or Casey Hayward 8M as a CB2 with Eli or Phillips 2M as a CB5 and draft a CB/S.
BJ Hill is a nice run/pass mix, but for a little bump in salary the Bengals could pursue Akiem Hicks, who's better at everything.

The OLine: I'm not sold on anyone but Williams. I also don't want to sink $15+m into a player that could end up injured. I also don't want sign 4 FAs. OTOH, improvement isn't hard when you start from bad.
RT: I like Moses 8M if available, or sign Reiff 7M or Bobby Massey 3M as stop-gap RTs and draft or develop.
OG: Oday Aboushi 3M, recovering from ACL in 2021 and Spain 4M. I'm not convinced that Tomlinson is worth 8 or Scherff worth 17. Pick up another OG in the draft and let them battle it out.
OC: My big/small brain move. Trade 2022 and 2023 1st rounders to get Tyler Lindenbaum. I'm not planning to draft below 20+ in 2023 anyway. My guess is that we'd need to go up to #13 (Browns). As a 1st round pick, this is a 5 year answer to the center position. Alternatively or additionally, pursue Ben Jones 7M who is a solid pass-defender and has played RG in the past.

Certainly well thought out here. Zac will never trade picks. He’s very confident in his evaluations. A FA center is not expensive. More likely to resign Reiff and draft a tackle at #31. I expect then they go with a corner at #62. Fixing the OL is about numbers. This season bring in several via the draft and FA. The numbers should force somebody to emerge w/o spending mega bucks.

Morgan Moses and James Daniels should be at the top of people's list they are proven players in a blocking scheme similar to the Bengals. (Moses actually surprised me in that area this season.)

Two more names are Brian Allen and Laken Tomlinson.

Brian Allen was one of the best run blockers in the NFL regardless of position. He was also one of the top centers. His pass protection was average but his run blocking makes it worth and this was only his second year as a starter.

Laken Tomlinson is a veteran that isnt elite at anything but is above average at everything. He is the perfect guy to continue to help Jonah Williams and possibly Brian Allen develop.

The list of zone blocking Tackles this year is slim. Very expensive Terron Armstead but fits at LT only. Trent Brown did a stint of zone blocking in Oakland but his best years have been gap in New England. Riley Reiff continues to be one of the better options for the Bengals and that's more meh than better.

Right Tackle is likely a spot thr Bengals want to target in the first round but I dont believe a zone blocking Right Tackle will be there at 31 without reaching a little. If Trevor Penning is gone the next 3 would be Nicholas Petit-Frere, small school Bernhard Raimann, and Rasheed Walker.

(02-17-2022, 06:31 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Chiefs replaced 5 lineman in 1 offseason. Surely we could do 4. Chiefs had 1 of the better lines in the league this year

Chiefs did not have al the other holes in their roster that we do.

Starting safety...Bates
Starting CB.......Apple/Waynes
Starting TE.......Uzomah
Starting DT.......Ogunjobi
Rotation DTs that played about 50% of snaps each.......Hill, Tupuo.

(02-18-2022, 09:58 AM)Synric Wrote: Morgan Moses and James Daniels should be at the top of people's list they are proven players in a blocking scheme similar to the Bengals. (Moses actually surprised me in that area this season.)

Two more names are Brian Allen and Laken Tomlinson.

Brian Allen was one of the best run blockers in the NFL regardless of position. He was also one of the top centers. His pass protection was average but his run blocking makes it worth and this was only his second year as a starter.

Laken Tomlinson is a veteran that isnt elite at anything but is above average at everything. He is the perfect guy to continue to help Jonah Williams and possibly Brian Allen develop.

The list of zone blocking Tackles this year is slim. Very expensive Terron Armstead but fits at LT only. Trent Brown did a stint of zone blocking in Oakland but his best years have been gap in New England. Riley Reiff continues to be one of the better options for the Bengals and that's more meh than better.

Right Tackle is likely a spot thr Bengals want to target in the first round but I dont believe a zone blocking Right Tackle will be there at 31 without reaching a little. If Trevor Penning is gone the next 3 would be Nicholas Petit-Frere, small school Bernhard Raimann, and Rasheed Walker.

Agree the tackle market is slim at RT and replacing Williams with Armstead who’s 6 years older and more expensive doesn’t make sense. I don’t think the Bengals will pay top dollar for Scherff so that next waive of guards that you mentioned is where I’d look. Daniels, Allen, Tomlinson I also saw that Alex Cappa from Tampa is a restricted free agent he’s only 27 and has played well.

Nobody thinks these vets would come here for slightly less money, after just playing in a SB? I think they have a solid foundation to build off of, and people should want to go to a contender and might sign here for a little less since they are close, than signing somewhere for more money and not have a realistic chance.

I think we actually make a couple solid FA signings this year, as well as re-signing our own.

Me thinks:

CUTS-

1) Trea Waynes- 10.4 savings. He's a no brainer
2) Trey Hopkins-5.6 savings. need to re-allocate and upgrade the interior line play.
-16 million added to salary cap.

RE-SIGNS:

1) B.Allen-QB
2) J.Bates-FS
3) CJ Uzomeh-TE
4) BJ Hill-DT
5) Tre Flowers-CB
6) E.Apple-CB
7) K.Huber-P
8) C.Harris-LS
9) Mike Thomas-WR/ST
10) Riley Reiff-RT/LT
11) R.Allen-CB/S

FA"S from OUTSIDE:

1) James Daniels- RG
2) Brian Allen-C
- new line- LT-Williams, LG-Carmen, C- Allen, RG-Daniels, RT- Reiff/Frere
DRAFT: (1-5)

1) Nicolas Petit-Frere- RT (Ohio ST)
2) Phidarius Mathis-DT (Alabama)
3) Mykael Wright-CB (Oregon)
4) Charlie Kolar-TE (Iowa St)
5) Calvin Austin-WR/KR (Memphis)

(02-18-2022, 10:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Chiefs did not have al the other holes in their roster that we do.

Starting safety...Bates
Starting CB.......Apple/Waynes
Starting TE.......Uzomah
Starting DT.......Ogunjobi
Rotation DTs that played about 50% of snaps each.......Hill, Tupuo.

KC has WAYYYY more holes than we do...

Starting LT Orlando Brown
Starting RT Mike Remmers
Starting WR Mecole Hardman
WR 3 Byron Pringle
Starting Edge Melvin Ingram
Starting CB Chavarious Ward
Starting FS Honey Badger
Starting DT Jarran Reed

Not to mention key backups and rotational players like Wylie, Sorensen, McKinnon, etc.

(02-18-2022, 10:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Chiefs did not have al the other holes in their roster that we do.

Starting safety...Bates
Starting CB.......Apple/Waynes
Starting TE.......Uzomah
Starting DT.......Ogunjobi
Rotation DTs that played about 50% of snaps each.......Hill, Tupuo.

Agree to some extent the part people miss to is the Chiefs also drafted well. Creed Humphrey was one of the best centers in the league as a rookie and Trey Smith also played good as a rookie. I think realistically we can sign two good free agent lineman. The Chiefs paid Thuney crazy money and traded major draft assets for Brown who there gonna have to pay big money along with already paying Maholmes top dollar along with ,Hill , Kelece and Chris Jones big money with tyrann mathieu a free agent. Copying that would be like the Bengals paying Scherff top guard money then trading majors draft assets for a tackle which I don’t think anyone is asking for. They can sign two decent lineman and be ok with Burrow on a rookie deal. Ogunjobi or Hill won’t break the bank keep one and Tupou is a cheap backup plus you just drafted Shelvin. The TE free class is deep Usomah and Apple won’t cost much. Bates gonna what a lot of money but I think it’s doable.